Unsupervised children and Ofsted

[sarah707]

It's one of those scenarios everyone dreads - Ofsted turn up unannounced and you need to go to the loo....

A number of childminders are receiving safeguarding actions for leaving children unsupervised while nipping out of the room for a few minutes... and further safeguarding actions are being given for children being unsupervised in different situations as a result of complaints.

I have put some thoughts into a blog. I hope you find it interesting - and thought provoking :D

Sarah's Blog: Unsupervised children, childminders and Ofsted (http://knutsfordchildminding.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/unsupervised-children-childminders-and.html)

[Christi]

Thanks Sarah, very interesting reading. What is saddening me is that the further Ofsted go dowm these paths the less I want to do the job. Something which is not a reflection on the children.

[MessybutHappy]

Wow. I'm at a loss. That we cannot leave them with an Ofsted inspector while we nip for a pee is daft! The inspector is dbs'd, experienced... surely???

My children are usually within hearing...I may not actually be able to hear them because they may be being quiet, but if they needed me, i.e. they cried, I would know about it.

However, they are often not in sight in the playgrounds, they are under, behind or inside all the fab climbing frames etc! Sometimes, if I can see one on one side, and I'm with one on another, I probably can't hear them, and they may disappear from sight for a short while, but unless I'm to stop giving them the freedom to explore freely, how can that change?

I choose not to use the parks as much in the holidays because they do get so noisy and busy, but we make up for this in term time. I don't want to be dragging one child across the Park the whole time?!

Thank you Sarah for your blog, and for highlighting the risk, but right now I am struggling with the implications!

[Mrs Scrubbit]

Thanks Sarah-food for thought xx

[Wiggle Wiggle]

Thank you once again Sarah for this very interesting blog.

[Simona]

Without seeing the actual wording in the reports or the reasons for the safeguarding actions or knowing the conversation between the cm and inspector it is very hard to comment.

Children have to be within hearing OR sight of a cm at all times...that is the present EYFS guidance and until we have a revised one we need to go by that.
I assume that not all cms have a downstairs loo so yes they need to pop upstairs...how was that judged in previous inspections?
I also assume a cms dining room is not miles away from the kitchen? if she pops in the kitchen to fetch something the children will be within hearing?

Even during a schedule inspection a cm may want the loo and inspections from Nov 2013 will be 3 hours long for cms

So what has changed from the present statutory guidance?
or are we again back to individual interpretation by inspectors?

if children will not be allowed out of sight AND hearing that has to be clearly stated which means cms may find it difficult to work on their own in the future unless they have an open plan setting and a downstairs loo

What happens in nurseries when a carer changes a nappy? will she now need someone supervising her?

Upstairs bedrooms are allowed with a monitor...that too needs to be looked at now according to Ofsted?

Supervision in parks and outings has not changed...of course we need to be vigilant or shall we all buy one of those awful carts nurseries use for taking children out?

Too many unanswered questions
My feeling on this is to contact Ofsted and see if anyone can give an answer to this new development or we will have another worry on our hands

[SYLVIA]

so really the best way to cover these problems is to sit in one room and stare at each other for 10 hours! When will Ofsted have inspectors with a little bit of common sense in their qualifications.

[cathtee]

Thank you Sarah, very interesting reading

[TooEarlyForGin?]

Poor poor kids, they will end up having a panic attack being left in their own for a few minutes, how does this prepare them for life? Safeguarding my **** I can just imagine the police and SS interviewing me when a child went home reporting that I had been pushing something into my privates!! Where in all common sense would that be ok. One minute we have to provide privacy for a tiny baby who doesn't care, but it's ok for us to toilet in front of 3 small children..........

Oh, on a different note can someone please inform holiday companies, theme parks, cinemas etc about the fact children are not adults until 18.

[MessybutHappy]

Poor poor kids, they will end up having a panic attack being left in their own for a few minutes, how does this prepare them for life?

Safeguarding my **** I can just imagine the police and SS interviewing me when a child went home reporting that I had been pushing something into my privates!! Where in all common sense would that be ok. One minute we have to provide privacy for a tiny baby who doesn't care, but it's ok for us to toilet in front of 3 small children........,,..

Brilliantly put! Wish I had a like button on the phone!

[oxfordshirecm]

After reading this- I am reading this right that I am no longer allowed to have children sleeping in upstairs bedrooms? Where are they supposed to sleep? I work with an assistant so have 6 children everyday and 4 of them have at least one 2 hour nap a day- where would they sleep?

[hectors house]

RE: visiting the loo, I would tell the inspector that I would normally leave the lounge door and the loo door open so that I can hear the children at all times and I will be happy to demonstrate if the inspector doesn't mind my toilet noises!

How can we protect ourselves when all our policies would be conflicting themselves eg: how can I check on sleeping babies every 30 mins (they also have a monitor) if I can't leave the older children downstairs for 30 seconds?

[samb]

I have collection times that fall over dinner. The children are at the table and my hallway is opposite and the door is at the end of the hall and I have never seen it a problem to open the door to a parent. What would I do instead?! I'm thinking maybe put a poster on door saying we are eating so please ring the bell so we know you are here and patiently wait until it is safe for me to answer the door? Maybe if children haven't finished by a set time they have plates taken away while I open door but seems a bit unfair and a rush? I don't really know how to change this. Is a written risk assessment of this time enough to still answer the door? :-/

[lashely]

I have a video of my daughter about a year ago before i started minding. She was 1.5 and followed me to toilet often. Now this video shows her coming across one of my tampons - unused I might add.

My daughter then squats dramatically and tries to push it into her trousers in the correct area!!!

As I was training to be a childminder and was aware of the toilet issues I keep this video as back up and have a policy that I make sure children are occupied and safe and I can hear them and I am only gone for a minute.

I have not been inspected yet but hope that this video will help them see that as a parent I'd be devastated if my child imitated something so personal that they had witnessed their childminder do.

[Simona]

I hope we will reflect on this rather than generate panic and trying to think with our 'independent' hat on??
whatever independent means to each of you personally....it this had happened at your inspection what would you do?


These are results from 2 inspections, possibly far apart, possibly conducted by 2 different companies ...we have no idea what happened when the reports landed on Ofsted QA team and what they did with the gradee awarded by the inspectors??

the 2 cms are not here to explain or guide us through this reflective exercise....so a lot will be guesswork
and assumptions.

I wonder if they raised an appeal after their inspection or reported this to any of the representing associations to look into....or even went anonymously on the #OBC and reported their experience? possibly not

In my view they could be very much dependant on the inspectors' judgement ...as said without looking at the report and knowing all the facts it is hard to judge
All inspectors start their new training very soon for the new framework...we need to concentrate on getting them trained in a similar way

No we won't have to lock children in one room
Yes we will still be able to use the upstairs rooms because many cms, in order to do so, actually get advice directly from the Local Fire Officer

Please lets avoid turning this very serious matter into a gossip column....
I would be happy to ring Ofsted and clarify but without direct information from the cms affected Ofsted will take it as 'hearsay' as they did when I reported that inspectors were 'passing by' and doing a schedule inspection

Please lets concentrate on all the things that are happening at present and will happen in the near future but seem not discuss in this forum

Maybe the forum would take the lead and try to clarify this new development with Ofsted ...come back and share with us?

[lilac_dragon]

I have collection times that fall over dinner. The children are at the table and my hallway is opposite and the door is at the end of the hall and I have never seen it a problem to open the door to a parent. What would I do instead?! I'm thinking maybe put a poster on door saying we are eating so please ring the bell so we know you are here and patiently wait until it is safe for me to answer the door? Maybe if children haven't finished by a set time they have plates taken away while I open door but seems a bit unfair and a rush? I don't really know how to change this. Is a written risk assessment of this time enough to still answer the door? :-/

I was about to write the same thing!!
If I was to take a child's plate away every time a parent rang the bell, there would be no point in doing them snack or tea at all!
The baby's high chair is in direct line of the front door, down the hall - as there's nowhere else for it to go anyway. So I can see over my shoulder immediately.
What age do we trust the children to be allowed to keep their plates while I let parents in, - the table isn't in sight of the front door but is within hearing. Some of my High Schoolers are 11-15 do I REALLY have to take their plate away??? If I don't then the younger ones will think it's unfair and what about the "A is only 3 months older than me and he's got HIS plate" scenario? In nearly 29 years of Childminding I've never had a child choke while I opened the front door!

[Simona]

I was about to write the same thing!!
If I was to take a child's plate away every time a parent rang the bell, there would be no point in doing them snack or tea at all!
The baby's high chair is in direct line of the front door, down the hall - as there's nowhere else for it to go anyway. So I can see over my shoulder immediately.
What age do we trust the children to be allowed to keep their plates while I let parents in, - the table isn't in sight of the front door but is within hearing. Some of my High Schoolers are 11-15 do I REALLY have to take their plate away??? If I don't then the younger ones will think it's unfair and what about the "A is only 3 months older than me and he's got HIS plate" scenario? In nearly 29 years of Childminding I've never had a child choke while I opened the front door!

No one said we should...this is a serious topic that is now been embellished with lots of speculation and sarcasm...we need to take it seriously

I am also aware that we have parents in this forum and LAs members and others higher up who are reading our responses...what will they think if we react this way?

Sorry to be on a different level on this but someone did say this was thought provoking...it is, or at least it is for me.

This forum should offer support to those who may be feeling unsure and will need to think about it with positive suggestions not gut reaction
We need to be pro active not reactive...I know this will make me unpopular but I will take that chance.

[Daftbat]

I had my inspection last week and during that time I took 2 children upstairs at different times to put them down for a nap. At the same time another child was downstairs having a nap in my quiet area. The inspector made no mention at all about me being upstairs whilst other children were downstairs.

As someone else has said - the best argument is to point out that the inspector is a suitable person to be left with the children anyway. I would also comment that my house is not a mansion and children can always be within hearing for me.

Sarah's bit about our own toileting and comparison to men is very good. I hadn't thought about that before and it strengthens the fact that I NEVER take a child to the toilet with me.......Oh, except if we are not at home when they do come with me but I try to ensure that I myself have been to the loo before we leave the house.

[Simona]

I had my inspection last week and during that time I took 2 children upstairs at different times to put them down for a nap. At the same time another child was downstairs having a nap in my quiet area. The inspector made no mention at all about me being upstairs whilst other children were downstairs.

As someone else has said - the best argument is to point out that the inspector is a suitable person to be left with the children anyway. I would also comment that my house is not a mansion and children can always be within hearing for me.

Sarah's bit about our own toileting and comparison to men is very good. I hadn't thought about that before and it strengthens the fact that I NEVER take a child to the toilet with me.......Oh, except if we are not at home when they do come with me but I try to ensure that I myself have been to the loo before we leave the house.

Thank you for confirming it is the inspector's individual interpretation that has triggered the actions in the cases we are discussing

Yes I agree with the comments on our toileting too and it is worth pursuing whether the inspector can be left with the children when we pop to the loo as long as the children are within hearing of us...lots she could observe then!

[jackie 7]

This is really interesting. What I see is that we need to be aware of where the children are at all times. I too leave the playground when it is too full to see the children. I leave the loo food s bit open when I go to the loo. I listen to h when they play next door. I will now write this up as a RA. In a nursery I worked in 4 years ago we always changed nappies when there was another worker was present and this was in nappy changing time. I also would bring the changing things into the room of there was only 1 child to be changed.

[hectors house]

Thank you Sarah 707 for bringing this to our attention - I think it is worth thinking about these issues before we have an inspection, so we can have a verbal answer for the inspector on the day of how we risk assess - at the end of the day they should respect that we do know our mindees, I know I can leave the room with my current mindees (either leaving them playing or pop the tv on quickly) but I have had mindees that I couldn't even risk turning my back on whilst in the same room without them pinching someone or bouncing on the furniture.

It is useful to know comments that have been made about other people's inspections - I regularly read the Ofsted inspection reports to find out what they are currently "nit picking" about now.

[Simona]

Thank you Sarah 707 for bringing this to our attention - I think it is worth thinking about these issues before we have an inspection, so we can have a verbal answer for the inspector on the day of how we risk assess - at the end of the day they should respect that we do know our mindees, I know I can leave the room with my current mindees (either leaving them playing or pop the tv on quickly) but I have had mindees that I couldn't even risk turning my back on whilst in the same room without them pinching someone or bouncing on the furniture.

It is useful to know comments that have been made about other people's inspections - I regularly read the Ofsted inspection reports to find out what they are currently "nit picking" about now.

I agree with you but inspectors should not be 'nit picking' but following the inspection guidance...it is not their personal interpretation we want but how we deliver the EYFS

As you say RA is vital as is the ability to challenge the inspector's view as well as appealing when we are unhappy about the judgement.
Lets see what happens when they start inspecting after their re-training this month for the new framework in Nov.

[hectors house]

I agree with you but inspectors should not be 'nit picking' but following the inspection guidance...it is not their personal interpretation we want but how we deliver the EYFS

As you say RA is vital as is the ability to challenge the inspector's view as well as appealing when we are unhappy about the judgement.
Lets see what happens when they start inspecting after their re-training this month for the new framework in Nov.

Have I missed something - what is the new framework? I know the Development Matters has been chopped to just one column (Unique child) but why are the inspectors being re-trained?

[kellyskidz!]

Very interesting read, and as has been said, thought provoking.
We all know the risks of leaving children alone and to be honest I probably hold some kind of record for wee'ing the fastest of everyone i know, so paranoid am I about leaving the kids alone!
I don't agree we should take them with us, as this raises a million other issues. What if we were in the middle of our time of the month? What if a child went home chatting about seeing their cms private parts, what is the point in teaching the children privacy and not using the toilet at the same time as another child if we invite them in when we're doing our business!
I think the travel cot idea for little ones and occupying older ones is the way to go, and this is what I do and will continue doing. If OFSTED did have a problem with this I'd contest it 100% as I don't feel that the children should come to the toilet with us at all x

[Simona]

Have I missed something - what is the new framework? I know the Development Matters has been chopped to just one column (Unique child) but why are the inspectors being re-trained?

DM is still current ...the new Outcomes have removed the Positive Relationships and Enabling Environment but concentrate on the outcomes for the Unique Child...I am sure they will pop up in the Statutory Guidance at some point.

My understanding we need to have both at hand during inspection...I have printed the outcomes and use them with DM

There is thread with all the links to the new framework which was published last week and comes into effect from Nov 2013...it is in the Ofsted section of the forum

There are also 2 more documents attached to the framework and I have said many times it also includes cms as stated on page7 which is not what we expected but I have not heard otherwise....so we need to take it we are included

All inspectors are being trained on the new framework this month

I am not sure why it has not been discussed more in this forum but the reply from Sue Gregory to #OBC does refer to it
Gregory also states "we do not expect practitioners to follow a specific approach"

If cms are interested they can follow the development with #OBC and the next action or follow the independent cms LinkedIn group

[TooEarlyForGin?]

.....reply from Sue Gregory to #OBC does refer to it Gregory also states "we do not expect practitioners to follow a specific approach "

I think this is what we all struggle with the most, they don't give us specific guidelines, telling us to interpret it in a way that suits our own personal setting and children, then come and criticise how we work, it's so frustrating, which is why OFSTED need to get their act together and standardise the inspection system.

[Simona]

I think this is what we all struggle with the most, they don't give us specific guidelines, telling us to interpret it in a way that suits our own personal setting and children, then come and criticise how we work, it's so frustrating, which is why OFSTED need to get their act together and standardise the inspection system.

Agree and that is why those in #OBC will take the action further
I am there to follow this up because Sue Gregory's reply did not address the questions put to her as a result of the #OBC meetings but dodged them all

It came out as Ofsted being perfect and we are all at fault
As a public body they are responsible and accountable and should self reflect like we do.

Sorry to have deviated from the thread..I just answered the question about the framework

[JCrakers]

I think its absolutely stupid.:mad:

Scenario: I have 3 under 5yrs. (14m, 21m and 3yrs)
The 14m old needs to sleep mid morning so do I

A.) Take 14m old upstairs to the cot whilst I leave the other two downstairs where there is a gate, the room is safe and completely RA'ed. I will be upstairs between 1-3 minutes while I put him in the cot and settle him down.

B.) Take all 3 children upstairs, having the 14m old in my arms, 21m and 3yr old walking up the stairs, then leaving the eldest two to wonder round whilst I put 14m old in the cot. Then I have to get back downstairs with a higher risk of a fall when they didn't even need to be taken up there.

Scenario: (same children)
I need a wee, so do I :

A) Leave the 3 children in the playroom where I can hear them from the toilet with the toilet door ajar while I go. They can continue playing in a safe environment

B.) Take all three into the small cramped downstairs loo where the 14m old will be grabbing my trousers and crawling round the toilet while the 3yr old will be looking as I'm wiping my bottom. There will be no room to move so 21m old will probably end up falling and cracking her head on the sink.
Then the 3yr old can go home and tell her Mum 'Mummy, I saw xxxx bottom today because she made us go to the toilet with her'

Or even worse, I am on my period and I need to go and sort myself out (IN PRIVATE)!!!!!!!!!!!

For goodness sake, some of these inspectors are seriously on another planet :angry: This just makes me cross

[Simona]

I think its absolutely stupid.:mad:

Scenario: I have 3 under 5yrs. (14m, 21m and 3yrs)
The 14m old needs to sleep mid morning so do I

A.) Take 14m old upstairs to the cot whilst I leave the other two downstairs where there is a gate, the room is safe and completely RA'ed. I will be upstairs between 1-3 minutes while I put him in the cot and settle him down.

B.) Take all 3 children upstairs, having the 14m old in my arms, 21m and 3yr old walking up the stairs, then leaving the eldest two to wonder round whilst I put 14m old in the cot. Then I have to get back downstairs with a higher risk of a fall when they didn't even need to be taken up there.

Scenario: (same children)
I need a wee, so do I :

A) Leave the 3 children in the playroom where I can hear them from the toilet with the toilet door ajar while I go. They can continue playing in a safe environment

B.) Take all three into the small cramped downstairs loo where the 14m old will be grabbing my trousers and crawling round the toilet while the 3yr old will be looking as I'm wiping my bottom. There will be no room to move so 21m old will probably end up falling and cracking her head on the sink.
Then the 3yr old can go home and tell her Mum 'Mummy, I saw xxxx bottom today because she made us go to the toilet with her'

Or even worse, I am on my period and I need to go and sort myself out (IN PRIVATE)!!!!!!!!!!!

For goodness sake, some of these inspectors are seriously on another planet :angry: This just makes me cross

All we can do is keep pushing for inspection that have a 'universal' approach not individual interpretations or this saga will never end

[JCrakers]

Actually if we have to have all children in sight at all times maybe we could all sit by his cot when he is asleep for 1.5hrs :thumbsup:
Or put his cot up in the playroom where he can try to sleep through the noise

How could I leave him?

Sorry for the sarcasm.....I get more and more annoyed with Ofsted daily :angry:

[Simona]

Actually if we have to have all children in sight at all times maybe we could all sit by his cot when he is asleep for 1.5hrs :thumbsup:
Or put his cot up in the playroom where he can try to sleep through the noise

How could I leave him?

Sorry for the sarcasm.....I get more and more annoyed with Ofsted daily :angry:

At present it is within sight OR hearing
Children sleeping upstairs are not within sight but yes to hearing if we use monitors?

Sarah's blog and post have triggered a cycle of reflection...at least for me...and having established this is due to individual interpretation we now have to reflect on how to prepare if that happens to us, argue on what is statutory now and look at our history which Ofsted have repeated over and over again is the underlying current of their new framework

Let's see if we can now put some positive suggestions forward

[AdeleMarie88]

It's ridiculous, and I won't be changing anything about my practice. I have three 2.5year olds everyday, there are times when I pop to the toilet, or leave a waking child alone so I can go and check on a sleeping child, and there is no way I could get around these without other potential risks being raised.

When I had my inspection I needed to change a nappy, I wasn't prepared to bring nappy changing things into kitchen, so I changed it in the back room as I usually do, my other mindee didn't want to come with me so he sat on the kitchen floor and read a story to the inspector. He was within hearing distance but I couldn't see him. Inspector asked me why I did that, I said I doubted she wanted to see/smell a dirty nappy, and it was unhygienic to change in kitchen, she was satisfied with my response and I ended up being graded good.

I would hope there are enough inspectors with experience and common sense to see that sometimes things crop up and a child would have to be momentarily left. Do they expect us to split ourselves in two?

[JCrakers]

At present it is within sight OR hearing
Children sleeping upstairs are not within sight but yes to hearing if we use monitors?

Sarah's blog and post have triggered a cycle of reflection...at least for me...and having established this is due to individual interpretation we now have to reflect on how to prepare if that happens to us, argue on what is statutory now and look at our history which Ofsted have repeated over and over again is the underlying current of their new framework

Let's see if we can now put some positive suggestions forward

I try to be positive but I think should stop coming on this forum because I get so wound up about it all. I'm fed up of bending over backwards and jumping through numerous stupid hoops :(
I just want to do my job like I have been doing for 20yrs....looking after children. Not having to think about every single thing before I do it.

You seem to be more open Simona and willing to adapt and think of ways to help/change things..... But these posts just wind me up

[hectors house]

I try to be positive but I think should stop coming on this forum because I get so wound up about it all. I'm fed up of bending over backwards and jumping through numerous stupid hoops :(
I just want to do my job like I have been doing for 20yrs....looking after children. Not having to think about every single thing before I do it.

You seem to be more open Simona and willing to adapt and think of ways to help/change things..... But these posts just wind me up

I'm like you with nearly 17 years of experience behind me, I do take on board the points raised in posts but adapt them to suit my experience, setting layout and knowledge of my mindees and I am quite willing to argue these points during an inspection. In this case I will not be changing anything I do but may tell the inspector the reasons why I do things my way so they can see that I have risk assessed the situation rather than me just doing it during an inspection and not giving them any explanation, so they can't jump to conclusions that I am putting children at risk.

[Ripeberry]

Thanks for the blog. Very interesting stuff. I'm just glad my own kids are at home when it's time for tea as they are my little minions and get stuff from the kitchen and do the washing up for me, so I can be with the mindees. Lunchtime is like a bomb site as everything is left in the sink for later.
As for sleeping, I've never been comfortable with kids being upstairs. They either nap on the sofa or pushchair (with permissions signed by parents). But most of their naps are taken in the car as it takes so long to get anywhere (a least half an hour), that I sometimes park up for half an hour, so they get their 1hr nap.

It's all common sense, but that one time you do one tiny thing wrong, someone will be there watching.:(

[Simona]

I try to be positive but I think should stop coming on this forum because I get so wound up about it all. I'm fed up of bending over backwards and jumping through numerous stupid hoops :(
I just want to do my job like I have been doing for 20yrs....looking after children. Not having to think about every single thing before I do it.

You seem to be more open Simona and willing to adapt and think of ways to help/change things..... But these posts just wind me up

I am trying to be positive and not react so that I can think straight and reflect on what I should do to prepare for the inspection and ...above all....how to challenge the inspector if my understanding of the framework is good...
no way will I adapt to something that is wrong but am prepared to fight....we have adapted for years to changes and when they are for the benefit of the children and providers then yes I can adapt but this is a different matter.

If we give in to Ofsted we get no chance
These posts should help us to support each other...we have had our moan now lets think how to get on!

We also need professionals to back us so their advice gives us motivation to stay positive
Lots of news coming out at the minute about inspections...I must go and read

[rickysmiths]

I agree with you but inspectors should not be 'nit picking' but following the inspection guidance...it is not their personal interpretation we want but how we deliver the EYFS

As you say RA is vital as is the ability to challenge the inspector's view as well as appealing when we are unhappy about the judgement.
Lets see what happens when they start inspecting after their re-training this month for the new framework in Nov.

I think one lesson that needs to be learnt and passed on to those who are less experienced is to not to be afraid to question an inspector about something that you don't agree. They unfortunately do put their own twists on things and interpret the EYFS in different ways. We must all be very familiar with the Welfare Requirements of EYFS and how they apply to our settings and we must be prepared to defend what we do and not just lie back and accept everything an inspector may say to us.

We must also feel more confident about challenging our reports and inspections outcomes because the more we do this the more Ofsted will have to train and demand that inspectors are fair.

[kellyskidz!]

I think one lesson that needs to be learnt and passed on to those who are less experienced is to not to be afraid to question an inspector about something that you don't agree. They unfortunately do put their own twists on things and interpret the EYFS in different ways. We must all be very familiar with the Welfare Requirements of EYFS and how they apply to our settings and we must be prepared to defend what we do and not just lie back and accept everything an inspector may say to us.

We must also feel more confident about challenging our reports and inspections outcomes because the more we do this the more Ofsted will have to train and demand that inspectors are fair.

Totally agree, OFSTED are not exempt from being criticised. They make mistakes like the rest of us, and minders should have more confidence to question them if they feel its justified x

[Simona]

Sorry to bang on about the new framework but... look at page 18 and in there it states clearly providers' are allowed to raise concenrs at the end of the inspection

My advice is study it very well and make notes so you are ready for judgement day....confidence can be achieved via knowledge when you are arguing for the right reasons!!
CMs are the last to raise an appeal...other providers do it more often

[lisbet]

That is food for thought, thank you, Sarah.

It sounds like a good job I had a down to earth inspector for my inspection then! I nipped out of the room at least twice to get something. The children were sitting down engrossed in playing and before I went the first time I said "Obviously you are DBS cleared so I can leave you in the room with the children for a moment." She was fine about it and wrote on the report that I provide a safe environment for the children to explore independently. Phew!

I also have children sleeping upstairs. If there was a fire I would corral children downstairs in the hall whilst I got any sleeping child/ren. I don't think this is ideal, but I don't know what else to do as I only have a sitting room and a kitchen diner downstairs so can't easily give either of them over to sleeping child/ren.

Rickysmiths, I agree that CMs need to be confident in putting across their views to inspectors. I think I went a bit numb due to nerves during mine, and with hindsight I would have made my case about a couple of things.

[clareelizabeth1]

I think I will make a point of locking the inspector outside my house when I go toilet.

[rickysmiths]

Sorry to bang on about the new framework but... look at page 18 and in there it states clearly providers' are allowed to raise concenrs at the end of the inspection

My advice is study it very well and make notes so you are ready for judgement day....confidence can be achieved via knowledge when you are arguing for the right reasons!!
CMs are the last to raise an appeal...other providers do it more often



But that is nothing new Simona. We have always been able to 'raise' concerns at any point during an inspection. The point is that too many people do not have the confidence to do this. Also as was discussed at the Ofsted Big Conversation sometimes discussing issues for a childminder, at the end or during an inspection is not possible when you are still caring for children. In schools feed back is done to staff in the quiet of an office and they are not at that point directly responsible for the immediate care of children. This can often be the case in a Nursery or Pre School where there is more than one member of staff.

We have to help develop childminder's confidence and ability to speak up. To help reduce the fear of Ofsted and the tenancy to regard them as some kind of God that they are not. To regard them for the humans they are doing an ordinary job like you and I.

[shortstuff]

CMs are the last to raise an appeal...other providers do it more often

I am one CM who did raise an appeal and it got me precisely no where. Because the inspectors own firm investigate why would they believe me over what was said when she denied all?

In my experience I wouldnt bother to appeal again as they dont seem to take you seriously and then keep you waiting for what seems like forever to say they are siding with their own employee!

[Simona]

But that is nothing new Simona. We have always been able to 'raise' concerns at any point during an inspection. The point is that too many people do not have the confidence to do this. Also as was discussed at the Ofsted Big Conversation sometimes discussing issues for a childminder, at the end or during an inspection is not possible when you are still caring for children. In schools feed back is done to staff in the quiet of an office and they are not at that point directly responsible for the immediate care of children. This can often be the case in a Nursery or Pre School where there is more than one member of staff.

We have to help develop childminder's confidence and ability to speak up. To help reduce the fear of Ofsted and the tenancy to regard them as some kind of God that they are not. To regard them for the humans they are doing an ordinary job like you and I.

Yes we have been able to raise concerns but in the past Ofsted listened and often made adjustments to a report...I am one of those who benefitted from that.
I have enjoyed each of past 5 inspections because I felt valued and respected by each of the inspectors who walked into my setting...
I saw inspections as a challenge to do better and recommendations always welcome to further reflect on my practice
I have no fear of Ofsted and never elevated them to godliness...I am also prepared to challenge where I see wrong

Unfortunately the regime is different now and if you read all the feedback from #OBC and the miriads of articles you will see how few concerns succeed now...that is what the campaign is all about.

The new framework also states that inspectors have to be mindful of when they feedback to providers...during an inspection discussions have to take place regularly...this is the time for a cm to start jotting things down and raise later.

As for making CMs more confident I can go back years when I have said that our ability to challenge positively is something CMs need to acquire via knowledge of the statutory requirements and doing things independently too....using our initiative and leadership.
I have often called for training on this subject and raised recently at a meeting with a variety consultants
I would like to know apart from PLA which other associations is speaking up for CMs at present?


Gail Tracey...I appreciate your comment very much and fear many would not repeat the experience...it must be disheartening and frustrating
but we must not lose motivation and determination....if we give in Ofsted will do as it pleases forgetting they are actually accountable for their practice...they are the DfE agency and that is where the problem lies in my view.

Can anyone really believe that this state of affairs can continue for much longer?

And these are the statistics from this article
Three in ten settings downgraded following complaints-driven inspections | Nursery World (http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/article/1215720/three-ten-settings-downgraded-following-complaints-driven-inspections?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

Only five childcare providers out of a total of 405 who complained about their inspection succeeded in having their complaint upheld.
The response also shows that 44 inspectors were the subject of three or more complaints relating to unscheduled inspections completed following concerns raised with Ofsted.

[emma04]

The world has gone utterly crazy!

Where on earth are these Martians from!

Good grief! Millions of children have survived being left alone while their parent or carer has a flipping wee!!!

Our homes have to be close to the equivalent of a padded cell, our doors must be kept locked, sockets covered, wine and poisons out of reach, blind cords tied up or removed, cupboards locked, every danger area gated off, our pets kept in confinement, visitors security checked as if they're entering MI5 and every solitary thing and activity risk assessed, written up and with some sort of policy attached for good measure!

Even with all of this in place, a child could still be at risk of injury whether I'm playing hawk eye or whilst I have a pee in peace or deal with my "monthly!!!"
Life is one big gigantic risk and if a child is going to injure themselves, they will whether we are hovering round them or not!!!

Current practice is gradually getting more and more difficult to adhere to and I predict that in 20yrs time, child minders won't exist!

Children with be institutionalised in strictly monitored nurseries, where they are observed constantly to the point where they could easily be confused with a zoo animal!
They will accomplish nothing without a body guard, disguised as a key worker, by their side
They will leave nursery, dazed, confused, terrified of being alone, and full of pessimistic notions of the way of the world!

We are damaging children through constantly striving to protect them from risk and danger! We don't know it yet but the toddlers of 2012 will be the adults of 2030! Adults that will have difficulty functioning, unless they're part of a team and will find life utterly stressful without a right hand man!! Empathy and emotion will be replaced with human calculators and articulate lumps of flesh that function like robots!!

Never ever thought I'd say this but I'm actually glad I will soon be leaving this profession! Reckon I could give little miss "I know jack ****" Truss a run for her money!!

[hectors house]

One of my 3 year olds yesterday just opened my lounge door and said as she did so "just going for a wee", one of the mums was just dropping off her 20 month old and thought that the little one was very grown up to be taking herself to the toilet - this child has just started Nursery - I doubt if her Key Worker accompanies her to the toilet and this time next year she will be starting school where she definitely will have to find her own way to the loo.

Obviously I have risk assessed this child taking herself to the toilet and know that she can be trusted to not throw a whole loo roll down the toilet or flood the room by leaving the tap on - surely I am preparing this child for school, don't we hear all the time about childminders failing in "school readiness" - how can they be independent if they aren't allowed out of our sight?

[emma04]

One of my 3 year olds yesterday just opened my lounge door and said as she did so "just going for a wee", one of the mums was just dropping off her 20 month old and thought that the little one was very grown up to be taking herself to the toilet - this child has just started Nursery - I doubt if her Key Worker accompanies her to the toilet and this time next year she will be starting school where she definitely will have to find her own way to the loo. Obviously I have risk assessed this child taking herself to the toilet and know that she can be trusted to not throw a whole loo roll down the toilet or flood the room by leaving the tap on - surely I am preparing this child for school, don't we hear all the time about childminders failing in "school readiness" - how can they be independent if they aren't allowed out of our sight?

All of mine go to the toilet unsupervised! My dd goes unsupervised at nursery and is the same age. Makes sense to me!

[sarah707]

I hoped my blog would spark a discussion - then I went to training last night and worked 2 days - so it has taken me ages to read through the comments! :laughing:

I want us to raise the issues that are happening during inspections openly and honestly without feeling angry or anxious ... I hate to think that by making suggestions and telling you how I do things and giving you ideas for different ways of thinking about things that I am upsetting members :( I am so sorry JCrackers and anyone else who has read the blog and been upset by the debate - that is not my intention :(

I just feel that it is very important we discuss what is happening during an Ofsted inspection near you - because it could be you it happens to next... and by reading comments and sharing ideas you will hopefully feel more empowered to either change your practice or try something new - or challenge the inspector if you feel they are wrong!!

As independent childminders of the future we have to feel confident to stand up for ourselves :D

[Simona]

I wonder what participants and readers of this thread have gained from the discussion?
what have we reflected we should do about the situation should it happen to us?
how have we reflected on our ability to challenge should the need arise?

For some unknown reason the new inspection framework has not had much discussion in this forum but it is now published and effective from Nov 2013...you will find that cms are included, contrary to what Ofsted led us to believe.

I would use that to gain as much knowledge as possible to prepare for your cycle inspection or indeed that unannounced one.

Whatever we say in this forum or whatever happens to others on the day of the inspection we are on our own and have to think and react quickly.
Will anyone add this to their SEF?

PS: I wonder if the new framework should be moved to a 'sticky' where it catches cms' attention?

[TooEarlyForGin?]

I wonder what participants and readers of this thread have gained from the discussion?
what have we reflected we should do about the situation should it happen to us?
how have we reflected on our ability to challenge should the need arise?

For some unknown reason the new inspection framework has not had much discussion in this forum but it is now published and effective from Nov 2013...you will find that cms are included, contrary to what Ofsted led us to believe.

I would use that to gain as much knowledge as possible to prepare for your cycle inspection or indeed that unannounced one.

Whatever we say in this forum or whatever happens to others on the day of the inspection we are on our own and have to think and react quickly.
Will anyone add this to their SEF?

PS: I wonder if the new framework should be moved to a 'sticky' where it catches cms' attention?

For me Simona, it makes me feel annoyed and fed up, but also determined and confident that I would definitely challenge an OFSTED inspector if I felt I needed to. I am a professional who has done this for 12 years now and will happily take on board constructive comments and thoughts, but if I felt in any way the inspector was just being "picky" or acting with self importance, I would put them in their place, I would ask them on what basis they made their decisions, especially as I have the back up of 3 inspections behind me. BUT this is me speaking with experience and knowledge that I run a good business with very happy families and children, if I was fairly new it would be a very different story.

[Little_steps]

I just had my reg visit and when asked the question "how would you safeguard children with visitors.?" I said the obvious answers, dbs cleared, out of hours visits, keep children if eyesight at all times. I ended with, and inc the inspector that If I couldn't keep children within my eyesight, I would ask them to leave my home until I was able to answer the door again!

The inspector didn't mention anything in reply and I got some helpful feedback so I can only assume she thought it ok. She must have typed it onto her laptop so if I'm ever queried I would say its in my reg visit notes that your people checked through.

It's ridiculous, kids at home aren't always watched. We are not a school etc yet it seems we have to do more and more than they do.....of course I don't want children harmed but I also won't be wrapping them up in cotton wool! Controlled risks are a good thing.