Contracts for Independent Childminders

[SammySplodger]

Re: Contracts for Independent Childminders

Do you buy them 'off the shelf', eg: NCMA / PACEY?
If yes to the above - how do you feel about using these now things have changed re: PACEY?

Or do you have you own?
If so, where did you get the wording from?

Do you think it would be helpful to have some draft contract wording linked on the Independent Childminders website?

Is there anything 'new' we might need to add into our existing contracts once the Agencies are up and running? Can anyone think of any possible new 'implications' that might need to be covered by our contracts?
....I'm hoping the answer to this is 'No, I can't think of anything and I really don't know what you mean Sammy Splodger :-) ....

Sorry if this appears to be another 'obvious' set of questions, but it would be helpful to know! You never know, it might throw something up.

Sarah: have we already got this one ready to link up to somewhere, or is it another action point?
Ta :-)

[miffy]

I've always been an NCMA member and so have used their contracts - I understand if you don't then NCMA legal team won't represent you if things go wrong.

If I remain independent then as long as I am still an NCMA member I would use their contracts. I can't see why I would need to use a different contract or am I missing something?

Miffy xx

[mum26]

I am the same as Miffy and have always been a member of NCMA (PACEY) and used their contracts. Will continue to do so in the future as long as I am a member.

[rickysmiths]

This is all daft at the moment because we can't possibly know what is going to happen or how.

I really have too much else to be concerned with to worry about this yet.

[sarah707]

Excellent question Sammy - we may well need to broaden it to other paperwork too - and there are a lot of samples and ideas for contents in free resources.

I have already collated links to free info about learning journeys :thumbsup:

I know contracts / permissions etc are personal to the childminder - but I have already been working on something generic for childcare.co.uk gold members - great minds and all that!!

I can easily adapt it for the forum too with a link off the new Independent Childminders - Supporting each other (http://www.independentchildminders.co.uk) website :D

[Simona]

Sammy Your question is a bit confusing???...of course Independent cms WILL need a contract for obvious reasons...but why worry about something that cannot change unless you intend to give up self employment?

I have my own, devised and updates over the last 20 years...it is a comprehensive document, all inclusive, even my solicitor had little to amend when he put his stamp of approval on it
A contract is a legally binding document...Pacey may help you if you have problems but any contract, as long as signed by both parties, is valid even if it is written on a piece of loo paper and will stand in any court!!

[sarah707]

This is all daft at the moment because we can't possibly know what is going to happen or how.

I really have too much else to be concerned with to worry about this yet.

The Govt are pushing ahead with agencies Ricky - yes a few of us are still fighting but they are riding roughshod over our concerns and / or totally ignoring us.

There aren't enough people writing letters / lobbying / asking questions etc to show the strength of feeling unfortunately.

I am one of only 6 published childminder responses on the Govt 'have your say' website - childmindinghelp.co.uk/haveyoursay - that is simply NOT enough.

My 30+ page analysis of the 'More Great Childcare' document was received and I got a letter back on Friday telling me there were changes coming - and advising me to read 'More great Childcare' for more details :(

So..... if childminders are not prepared to join up en masse and show their strength of feeling - then we on the Forum have to be ready to support them through the changes.

Sam is asking questions in preparation for the new website - and the support the Forum will be giving independent childminders.

If a thread gets a lot of answers then we know people want help in that area - like the one the other day about disseminating information. We are already working on how to do that more effectively.

If a thread doesn't get many answers or they are negative like this one then we know it's not something worrying our Forum members and we won't waste our time doing anything about it - because other areas of provision are more pressing.

I appreciate you are busy Ricky - as are we all - perhaps if you just answer the ones you feel you might need support with in the future?? :D

[SammySplodger]

I've always been an NCMA member and so have used their contracts - I understand if you don't then NCMA legal team won't represent you if things go wrong.

If I remain independent then as long as I am still an NCMA member I would use their contracts. I can't see why I would need to use a different contract or am I missing something?

Miffy xx

I'm exactly the same & in answer to your question: we don't know yet!

These questions are designed to get us thinking. But don't worry - once we find out answers, it will all be linked up to the website :-)

[Chatterbox Childcare]

This could be another year yet and I think you are getting organised about something that hasn't gone through Government yet.

The agencies need to be formed (only discussion at the moment about how/why etc) and then the ideas need to go to a consulting group, back to Government, trials and if found to work legislation.

I don't think anything will change for Independent Childminders whereas agencies I can forsee will have employed childminders and all the set up and changes will be with them

[angeldelight]

I've always been an NCMA member and so have used their contracts - I understand if you don't then NCMA legal team won't represent you if things go wrong.

If I remain independent then as long as I am still an NCMA member I would use their contracts. I can't see why I would need to use a different contract or am I missing something?

Miffy xx

I agree with you Miffy I use MM but will continue to do so .

Am I missing something ...I feel it's just making people panic tbh

Why on earth would we need different contracts

Confused

Angel xx

[SammySplodger]

I am sorry if it appears that I am confusing people. I am just trying to collate the 'how to' parts of our website. We will be covering ALL aspects of our business and how to stay Independent (linking back to the forum pages where relevant).

The questions are designed to get us thinking. And, YES, to some questions the answer might be that there is 'no change'.

I am doing two things on purpose:
1) asking obvious questions, for the benefit of non-experts
2) playing devils advocate
...because I don't want us to miss anything.

Believe me: there is method in my madness.
:-)

If you don't wish to answer a question (for whatever reason), then simply ignore it! That in itself is useful, because it means we probably don't need to include it in the website.

[blue bear]

I use MM contracts, I prefer off the shelf to writing my own,feels like you have a back up of an expert behind you.

[Simona]

Blue Bear I am no expert but a contract has to reflect what you wish to mutually agree with parents and is pertinent to your setting...
The expert was paid to approve it
Many cms have a website, a prospectus maybe and often have to add terms and conditions that reflect their practice because 'off the shelf' contract are more generally written

I started with a few pages when I run my own pre-school and now have something that I can adapt just by opening the document...since EYFS 2008 I have adapted it to all the changes and since EYFS 12 it has been tweaked many times...

Other things it does: it is my Copyright, saves me money and it saves me having to add several pieces of paperwork (which I know cms who use off the shelf ones have to do) that are required under the Welfare Requirements because they are all in one and mutually agreed...
of course it works for me and may not be what everyone wants to do...that's the perk of being independent and running our business!

The question of contracts is pertinent and have had it on my list for a long time but in a different context?

[hectors house]

I am currently using up my old NCMA contracts even though I now have my insurance through MM - I was just assuming that NCMA (PACEY) or MM would amend the wording on their contracts for Independent childminders.

For those who choose the agency route - would they do the contracts or would the agency (is this some of the paperwork that the agencies are offering to do?) - not that I care - as I am STAYING INDEPENDENT!!

[Simona]

'Independent' is a label we have given ourselves to distinguish us from those who go under an agency? but the agency may allow cms to remain independent/self employed? intriguing I feel
No one can add that word to a contract as yet for obvious reasons...are independent cms self employed? if cms believe so then they can act accordingly as owner/managers of their business...I am clear on that and it is my view of course

[SammySplodger]

I am currently using up my old NCMA contracts even though I now have my insurance through MM - I was just assuming that NCMA (PACEY) or MM would amend the wording on their contracts for Independent childminders.

For those who choose the agency route - would they do the contracts or would the agency (is this some of the paperwork that the agencies are offering to do?) - not that I care - as I am STAYING INDEPENDENT!!

Yes - the wording will be amended on the generic PACEY & MM contracts - but I want to know how / what will be different about them, so we can be aware of it and reflect this if we choose to do our own.

Personally, I intend to carry on with my old NCMA ones for the time being (I believe they are valid for another year), with a view to writing my own and having separate insurance in place by the time my existing contracts are renewed (Jan/Feb). So: no rush - but something to keep in mind as things develop.

The other thing that I want us all to be aware of is whether the Agencies (if they produce contracts for Parents) will have anything 'preferable' for ie: an advantage we might not be offerIng, for example: not having to pay for Bank Holidays.

It may seem at times like I an writing boring unnecessary detail, but it's all about planning for sustainability. All if these relatively minor points will add up to a whole, which Parents / customers will need to weigh up. And I don't want us to be disadvantaged or 'behind'.

[SammySplodger]

'Independent' is a label we have given ourselves to distinguish us from those who go under an agency? but the agency may allow cms to remain independent/self employed? intriguing I feel
No one can add that word to a contract as yet for obvious reasons...are independent cms self employed? if cms believe so then they can act accordingly as owner/managers of their business...I am clear on that and it is my view of course

That's exactly it Simona - I'm expecting to add this wording into my new contracts (in several months time) to make it crystal clear for Parents.
ie: I am an Independent, Ofsted registered Childminder. I am self employed. I do not belong to an Agency.

[loocyloo]

i use ncma/pacey contracts and will continue to do so for as long as i am a member. i do amend them slightly, but having used my own in the past, parents seem to take more notice of 'official' looking contracts, rather than those i printed at home !

[lilac_dragon]

I've always been an NCMA member and so have used their contracts - I understand if you don't then NCMA legal team won't represent you if things go wrong.

If I remain independent then as long as I am still an NCMA member I would use their contracts. I can't see why I would need to use a different contract or am I missing something?

Miffy xx

I use NCMA ones for the same reason. I used to have my own, and they've been copied and used by loads of people including Childminding Tutors, but NCMA refused to advise me on something when I admitted that I didn't use their contracts.
I think if we have our own contracts as "Independent" Childminders we will have to be aware if our Insurance is with NCMA/PACEY that they won't help us.

[Simona]

I feel we need to be sure what we are saying here so not to confuse or worry others when you put your questions forward

You can only use ncma contracts for a year from their launch...so only until next March as they launched this March
All that has changed 'at present' is the new brand name...
neither Pacey or MM intend to write a new contract for 'independent' cms as there is no need and obvious why

Your own contract is as valid as any ncma or MM...otherwise my solicitor would have said otherwise
it depends on what type of contract you write...if it is professional, pertinent to the service you provide and well written it has the same value as anyone else's...ask any Small Claim Court and they will confirm that when they deal with any contract dispute

I would suggest you call Pacey and MM as I have done and my accountant too and all will be clarified
What I have been told by all 3 parties confirms what I said before that I am clear of what I need to do...make sure you are too if you are planning ahead!

Maybe we should research what being independent means...it appears it is all in the title we use

[FussyElmo]

Yes - the wording will be amended on the generic PACEY & MM contracts - but I want to know how / what will be different about them, so we can be aware of it and reflect this if we choose to do our own.

Personally, I intend to carry on with my old NCMA ones for the time being (I believe they are valid for another year), with a view to writing my own and having separate insurance in place by the time my existing contracts are renewed (Jan/Feb). So: no rush - but something to keep in mind as things develop.

The other thing that I want us all to be aware of is whether the Agencies (if they produce contracts for Parents) will have anything 'preferable' for ie: an advantage we might not be offerIng, for example: not having to pay for Bank Holidays.

It may seem at times like I an writing boring unnecessary detail, but it's all about planning for sustainability. All if these relatively minor points will add up to a whole, which Parents / customers will need to weigh up. And I don't want us to be disadvantaged or 'behind'.

The problem with trying to second guess what agencies will be offering is in this line (highlighted in blue)

So an agency doesn't charge for bh but you could get an independent who doesn't and one who does.

Honestly my plan for sustainability isn't versus the agencies at the minute but the fact there isn't the need for childcare. No parent in our area is going to pay for the priveldge of using an agency - you are lucky if they go to work :(

[SammyL]

Any help regarding being independent will be gratefully received by me.

I've only been minding since Sept & am trying to do my bit but am inexperienced & think it is very kind of more experienced & knowledgeable childminders to offer advice & support on issues that are extremely likely to occur in the coming year.

I'd rather be prepared & put a little extra effort in now.

Better safe than sorry IMO

xxx

[Simona]

I totally agree with you FussyElmo....my plans too are nothing to do with agencies but to concentrate on my sustatinability as you say and main aim of the Focus Group

many things are likely to happen but not all those raised here....even experienced cms will need support and advice from those in the know. My accountatnt certainly opened a few doors for me!!

We are giving agencies too much 'oxygen of publicity' and if they are listening they will reflect, adapt and come up with amendements to their various models when they sit at that precious table with the DfE!!!

[SammySplodger]

I'd like to revive this thread please...

We will obviously put info on the website re: PACEY & Morton Michel (recommended options for new CMs) but I also think we should cover creating your own contracts. So...

For those if you who DON'T buy off the shelf contracts:

Where did you go for your contract wording?
Did you get it checked out by anyone?
Who by and how much did it cost?

Do you think it is possible for us to offer contract wording, with various options which can be slotted in or tweaked, eg: term time / year round and guidelines about what should be included?

Thanks :-)

[rickysmiths]

I am sorry if it appears that I am confusing people. I am just trying to collate the 'how to' parts of our website. We will be covering ALL aspects of our business and how to stay Independent (linking back to the forum pages where relevant).

The questions are designed to get us thinking. And, YES, to some questions the answer might be that there is 'no change'.

I am doing two things on purpose:
1) asking obvious questions, for the benefit of non-experts
2) playing devils advocate
...because I don't want us to miss anything.

Believe me: there is method in my madness.
:-)

If you don't wish to answer a question (for whatever reason), then simply ignore it! That in itself is useful, because it means we probably don't need to include it in the website.



But why are you spending so much time speculating? You have no idea about what will actually happen or how it may or may not affect any Childminders.

I'm sorry but I don't see the point. You spend hours setting up a Web Site on 'What ifs' and 'Maybes'. Really what is the point?

[SammySplodger]

There is no speculation in my last post at all. It was simply a request for information, in order to HELP my fellow CMs to remain Independent (if that is what they wish to do).

You may see it as pointless, but I certainly don't and the response from plenty of others would suggest that it is worth us spending our time working on this project.

[sarah707]

But why are you spending so much time speculating? You have no idea about what will actually happen or how it may or may not affect any Childminders.

I'm sorry but I don't see the point. You spend hours setting up a Web Site on 'What ifs' and 'Maybes'. Really what is the point?

Perhaps you would like to direct that question to me Ricky - I am spending many hours of my precious free time writing copy for the new website ... or to Richard who has given us the website to support us now and in the future ... or to Pauline who is using her website building skills to provide us with an Independent Childminders website?

Sammy is asking questions which will feed into how we decide the website will look - because it is very important that the website reflects the views and thoughts of Childminding Forum members. She is also giving her free time to write information and advice about areas she knows a lot about such as advertising, marketing, website building etc.

At the moment I am juggling over 100 emails and direct messages about ideas for contents. This shows the strength of feeling and concern from childminders throughout the country.

We are being very, very careful not to speculate. We are asking questions, we are trying to get people thinking about what they want, we are offering support and advice, we are trying to reassure, we are in some cases playing devil's advocate to get people to respond...

The intention is that between Childminding Forum, Childminding Help and the new Independent Childminders website childminders will be able to access all the information they need to stay independent in the future.

So the point - to answer your question - is because childminders have asked for it and the Childminding Forum is supporting them.

If you have any further questions, you know where I am, feel free to ask me :D

[FussyElmo]

Ok Im really not seeing the need for new contracts.

If agencies go through they will provide all the paperwork especially if they are employing the childminder. Im assuming contracts etc will part of the agency remit.

So there will be no need to write a new contract as nothing will have changed.

I refuse to make more paperwork for myself by changing (when agencies come about) my contracts by adding the word independent onto it.

[SammySplodger]

Ok Im really not seeing the need for new contracts.

If agencies go through they will provide all the paperwork especially if they are employing the childminder. Im assuming contracts etc will part of the agency remit.

So there will be no need to write a new contract as nothing will have changed.

I refuse to make more paperwork for myself by changing (when agencies come about) my contracts by adding the word independent onto it.

FussyElmo: do you use your own? or off the shelf? I'm interested to know this as we will include contracts in the 'how to' sections.

When I first trained I was advised by my LA to go with NCMA and the start up pack was covered by my grant. But this time around (I have re-registered) absolutely no guidance was offered.

So focus less on my previous questions about 'will contracts need to be different', I'm interested in what we are doing NOW. Sorry if this is confusing, but I thought it better to use an existing thread rather than to start another new one.

We will clearly present the various options in an unbiased fashion to help CMs to decide which kind of contract to use.

If there ARE any implications as a result of agencies, we will cover this - But you are right, there might be no need and nothing has changed.

[FussyElmo]

FussyElmo: do you use your own? or off the shelf? I'm interested to know this as we will include contracts in the 'how to' sections.

When I first trained I was advised by my LA to go with NCMA and the start up pack was covered by my grant. But this time around (I have re-registered) absolutely no guidance was offered.

So focus less on my previous questions about 'will contracts need to be different', I'm interested in what we are doing NOW. Sorry if this is confusing, but I thought it better to use an existing thread rather than to start another new one.

We will clearly present the various options in an unbiased fashion to help CMs to decide which kind of contract to use.

If there ARE any implications as a result of agencies, we will cover this - But you are right, there might be no need and nothing has changed.

I use NCMAs as I say I don't make any extra paperwork for myself :D

[Simona]

Keep doing the good work and keep asking questions...it is the only way to prepare and remain 'independent'...depending on where our independence lies and who represents us

Rickismith...why do you keep saying we are speculating...it is not too difficult to understand that things are changing and agencies are coming?...like it or not some are preparing more than others
For instance a cm who registers with an agency cannot use ncma contracts because the bit about your Ofsted registration number will be totally irrelevant if the lose the registration and contracts will be irrelevant if you give up self employment??? I am sure ncma will update this important bit???
so rather than speculation it is called thinking ahead??

contracts are a personal choice...I said I have devised my own over the last 20 years...it is comprehensive (registration, prospectus, terms and conditions and contract) and can be updated in seconds. ..and cost nothing
I also use ncma but find them totally maddening (my view...don't shoot me)
Lets wait a little longer and see what we can do a bit later...plenty of ideas in my head

Sammy have you thought of googling contract and see what the main basics are? it will give you an idea and order your thoughts?
Thanks for all the work

[SammySplodger]

Keep doing the good work and keep asking questions...it is the only way to prepare and remain 'independent'...depending on where our independence lies and who represents us

Rickismith...why do you keep saying we are speculating...it is not too difficult to understand that things are changing and agencies are coming?...like it or not some are preparing more than others
For instance a cm who registers with an agency cannot use ncma contracts because the bit about your Ofsted registration number will be totally irrelevant if the lose the registration and contracts will be irrelevant if you give up self employment??? I am sure ncma will update this important bit???
so rather than speculation it is called thinking ahead??

contracts are a personal choice...I said I have devised my own over the last 20 years...it is comprehensive (registration, prospectus, terms and conditions and contract) and can be updated in seconds. ..and cost nothing
I also use ncma but find them totally maddening (my view...don't shoot me)
Lets wait a little longer and see what we can do a bit later...plenty of ideas in my head

Sammy have you thought of googling contract and see what the main basics are? it will give you an idea and order your thoughts?
Thanks for all the work

Thanks Simona - and YES - I was indeed Googling earlier today and have some good examples and advice pages which we are looking at. It's tricky though - as I also found plenty of examples that are not very comprehensive and potentially 'iffy' as well. If we are going to provide this info, it obviously needs to be good quality and fully up to date.

I don't know how feasible it is, but I'm wondering if we can come up with the 'bones' required and some essential paragraphs which are 'copyright free' (checked out by a 'legal mind'). Work in progress!

As for the off-the-shelf variety - I fully appreciate why they are used by many CMs and to date I have always used NCMA ones myself. When I was new there was no way I would have considered writing my own and my LA advised me not to.

However, now I'm fed up of the (many) notes and crossings out I have to make and I feel ready to write my own now. Also, I'm mindful of the (possible / unconfirmed) additional costs associated with staying Independent and therefore want to have all my own stationery for financial reasons. And no - this is not speculation - it is preparation. I do not expect all CMs will see this as necessary - but the information will be available IF they want it.

In addition, we will give details of the off-the-shelf contracts and their pricing. I have a feeling more may be emerging over the next year. Please do let us know if you spot any new ones.

[Simona]

Sammy...lets cross the 'contract bridge' when we need to
at present cms should use whatever they are comfortable with and they feel offers them the best cover!

[SammySplodger]

Sammy...lets cross the 'contract bridge' when we need to
at present cms should use whatever they are comfortable with and they feel offers them the best cover!

Yes I agree everyone should use what they are comfortable with and I'm not suggesting any immediate change is necessary.

Preparing in the background - happy to share research and info when it is needed and ready to be shared via forum and website.

We have lots more content planned and many months ahead of us. Nobody needs to feel rushed or panicked.

[phoenix2010]

I write my own contracts , wording devised by myself

As far as im concerned a document signed by 2 people constitutes a contract

would mine stand up in a court of law ?....well Ive no idea really

but I look upon it more as information which ensures that the parents and I are working from the same hymn sheet , so to speak, rather than something that I ever intend to defend in a court

I think that it is far more important to safeguard yourself by other means

e.g. ensure you get paid in advance , take a deposit before promising to hold places , communicate all the time clearly with parents as issues arise , dont be afraid to stand up for what you believe and dont let parents take advantage of you , and most of all be firm but fair

Ive never had a problem with parents not paying , or giving notice, providing what I ask , sticking to the terms

I think its common sense

I will be adding to all my paperwork a short explanation , when the time calls for it, explaining that I am independant , personally inspected and not tied to any agencys rules or regulations

[Simona]

You are correct and I do exactly the same as you with my own...as long as the contract is signed by both parties it is LEGALLY binding and will stand up in any court

[The Juggler]

i won't be changing my contracts. I won't be joining an agency but I feel that the contracts I use now cover me being independent - as I am independent at the moment and will remain so. I use MM contracts but won't buy any new ones I will simply type my own next time (based on the MM ones).

[SammySplodger]

I will be adding to all my paperwork a short explanation , when the time calls for it, explaining that I am independant , personally inspected and not tied to any agencys rules or regulations

Yes phoenix - that's what I intend to do, in order to avoid any confusion by parents, and same text on website, leaflet etc.

But you are right: 'when the time calls for it'.

We are working in the background, preparing info for the website and it will take us months to complete (in our own time) - so by starting the ball rolling and being aware now, we will be ready. :-)