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View Full Version : So guys... what next?



sarah707
29-01-2013, 07:20 PM
I have received a lot of messages today asking where we are going next with our campaign following on from the hugely successful petition which is nearly at 10,000 signatures in less than 48 hours!!

I think this outpouring of signatures - many with passionate comments - clearly shows the groundswell of support and feeling - the worries that people have about the future of both early years care and childminding.

We need to think about the most important aspects of the Truss report and be absolutely clear about what we are saying before we move on.

My initial thoughts - remembering I've had a busy day and not had time to fully digest the report yet - are that we need to focus on...

Quality rather than quantity...

Sustainable, successful businesses...

Individual inspections and autonomy rather than agencies...

Low ratios rather than risks to the wellbeing, health and safety of our children.

I want to know where you guys feel this should go next please!

Suggestions welcome... and if you disagree your views will of course as always be respected.

:D

Tazmin68
29-01-2013, 07:49 PM
It is a def no to agencies for me. Whole point of being self employed, parents have already said that they want to pay me not sn agency especially as I could mean that their fees could increase. It is too messy especially when you provide adhoc childcare. I have two that only come teacher training and snow days. Plus I want my inspections to carry on as normal at my setting by however it may be.

I suppose a thank you is in order in that they have stuck to the ratio of 6 under 8 years.

SYLVIA
29-01-2013, 08:08 PM
It's the agency part that I really don't like the sound of. I think it will take away our independence in a way. If we feel that the agency is not providing a good service to us or parents, will we be free to go to a different one. I do feel that parents will be paying more in the end as childminders are really not going to work for less than they do now and I feel agency fees will not come cheap.

jane5
29-01-2013, 08:10 PM
Am I missing something....???

I have read it that the ratios havnt really changed that much for childminders...

We still can not go over our 6 children under 8 years and 2 babies under 1 yr and no more than 4 children in the early years age which we have always been allowed with a variation....

I'm asking this as a genuine question because I was really worried that we may be expected to have more than 6 children under 8 and more allowed in the early years, I feel a bit relieved but I'm worried that I have not read everything :panic:

jane5
29-01-2013, 08:13 PM
I forgot to say I'm a big fat NO on childminding agencies

sarah707
29-01-2013, 08:17 PM
Ratios have not changed hugely for childminders... which is a massive relief... but remember that if the local nurseries suddenly have lots of spaces it will affect your business too ... especially if they start a fees war to attract new business... which they will need because their better qualified staff will want higher wages...

It all links together to make things very dodgy for us - especially if they are wanting all children in school by age 2. Where exactly is our business coming from?

xx

sarah707
29-01-2013, 08:17 PM
Ok so that's ...

1. Agencies

2. Agencies

More thoughts please! :D

pinky33
29-01-2013, 08:20 PM
Yeah I have a thought Sarah.......AGENCIES!!!

JCrakers
29-01-2013, 08:20 PM
I'm against the agency as I can't see how this will lower fees and I'm self employed and not answering to anyone. I'm not giving any of my hard earned cash to anyone. I've worked damn hard to build up my business and earn a good wage for it because I have a lot of children. Two years ago I hardly had any. If I was to give up a percentage of my money to an agency, some of my 'passion' would go too. There's no good working your ass off for peanuts.

Regarding the ratios I'm quite happy for the ratios to rise to 4 under 5 as it will save me a huge job of writing out a variation RA every month or so. But I can also see the implications of this on less experienced childminders taking on too much.
I know how much I can handle and would never go above 4 but I could see how this could turn into a money making scheme for some people to see extra children as extra money.

Plus higher ratios for nurseries will probably mean even less work for me with a large number of nurseries in my town. Most of the good nurseries are full here with a lot of childminders struggling (although a lot of them have never embraced the eyfs, and moan about it)

silvermist
29-01-2013, 08:25 PM
Agencies is a no go for me too!.

Im more upset today about her assumptions that unless we have 'certain qualifications' we cant provide high quality childcare. You only need to look at my parent questionaires to see that all my los parents are extremely happy with the care, activities and love I give to their children. Sorry to rant but its got to me!

SYLVIA
29-01-2013, 08:29 PM
Sorry Sarah, got so worked up over the agency part, I forgot to carry on! Quality over quantity needs to be pointed out to parents. In nursery as well as childminding; if the building used for nursery setting hasn't got stretchable walls, how are they going to fit more children in and still provide quality care. Space per child still needs to be considered or will that not matter anymore?

silvermist
29-01-2013, 08:33 PM
I also think the wellbeing of children will be affected if we can increase ratios. I know there are times in the day when I can offer each of my los one to one for a while. If I had more los I couldnt do it. I think safety would be compromised too, like others have said re space.

FussyElmo
29-01-2013, 08:36 PM
Sorry Sarah, got so worked up over the agency part, I forgot to carry on! Quality over quantity needs to be pointed out to parents. In nursery as well as childminding; if the building used for nursery setting hasn't got stretchable walls, how are they going to fit more children in and still provide quality care. Space per child still needs to be considered or will that not matter anymore?

Space per child is now considered a trival issue (yes that phase has really got to me)

Quality over quantity definetly.

Asking where the jobs are due to come from for the parents to go to.

The children in schools from 2 (another comment which makes me weep)

How will inspections work if under an agency how on earth do you get a proper grading.

Parents wanting the children to be safe and not wanting the ratio increase.

The discrepancies in inspections - no inspector sings from the same song sheet.

Will ofsted be able to deal with dealing with the 2, 3 and 4 yo funding.

Agencies are quite quite far down my list as its voluntary at the moment.

Tazmin68
29-01-2013, 08:40 PM
I would agree with the quality issue, I cannot see how ofsted would cope with 2,3 and 4 year old funding issues.

I think that it will be a usp that childminders will have smaller adult child ratios which we could shout about when parents compare us to nurseries.

rosebud
29-01-2013, 08:44 PM
Am I missing something....???

I have read it that the ratios havnt really changed that much for childminders...

We still can not go over our 6 children under 8 years and 2 babies under 1 yr and no more than 4 children in the early years age which we have always been allowed with a variation....

I'm asking this as a genuine question because I was really worried that we may be expected to have more than 6 children under 8 and more allowed in the early years, I feel a bit relieved but I'm worried that I have not read everything :panic:

I feel like this too. I have no intention of increasing the number of children I look after but the new ratios will allow me more flexibility. (without having to do RA for variation on odd occasions) And although I don't agree with lower child-adult ratios per se, If nurseries increase their number I can sell my business more easily - I have a lower child-adult ratio and therefore children will get more attention when they're with me, this is the reason that many people prefer to use childminders anyway. As for agencies - I will certainly not be joining one and cannot see how they would work in practise, however if it somehow benefits new childminders then good luck to them. When I first registered I joined our local network and the training and support I received was invaluable, I don't doubt for one minute that I would never have achieved an outstanding rating or even still be childminding without it. Maybe agencies could do the same??

I'm probably not being very helpful Sarah, but just trying to offer another viewpoint.

wendywu
29-01-2013, 08:52 PM
Well ilike the fact that i can now pull down the funding for 2 3 and 4 year olds. As in surrey being outstanding was not enough you had to have a level 3 , be on the network and doing their own QA which takes 2 years to complete.

All this while working a 55 hour week :panic:

Dont like the agency idea and i really cannot see children going into school at 2, i think that there would be an uproar :mad:

sarah707
29-01-2013, 09:01 PM
I feel like this too. I have no intention of increasing the number of children I look after but the new ratios will allow me more flexibility. (without having to do RA for variation on odd occasions) And although I don't agree with lower child-adult ratios per se, If nurseries increase their number I can sell my business more easily - I have a lower child-adult ratio and therefore children will get more attention when they're with me, this is the reason that many people prefer to use childminders anyway. As for agencies - I will certainly not be joining one and cannot see how they would work in practise, however if it somehow benefits new childminders then good luck to them. When I first registered I joined our local network and the training and support I received was invaluable, I don't doubt for one minute that I would never have achieved an outstanding rating or even still be childminding without it. Maybe agencies could do the same??

I'm probably not being very helpful Sarah, but just trying to offer another viewpoint.

No... you are being helpful... you are helping me by pointing out other views which I can use to build into my thinking.

I know why it wouldn't work for me - and many others said it wouldn't work for them - and that's why I started the petition in the first place.

But that doesn't mean we are all right - it just means that in our areas, in our positions etc we have concerns.

I can see some benefits to an agency - esp for new minders - but not if I have to give them a high percentage of my income, wait for them to send work my way, rely on them for my inspection grading, use paperwork they produce, jump through extra hoops, have them turn up to make suggestions that are frankly silly...

do you see what I mean?? :D

blue bear
29-01-2013, 09:01 PM
Sounds to me like the developemnt workers are at risk and with that the free or subsidised training we now enjoy.
This comes from the comments about ofsted being the bench mark for qualifying for drawing down funding which will free up money lea will no longer need to spend,

FussyElmo
29-01-2013, 09:03 PM
Well ilike the fact that i can now pull down the funding for 2 3 and 4 year olds. As in surrey being outstanding was not enough you had to have a level 3 , be on the network and doing their own QA which takes 2 years to complete.

All this while working a 55 hour week :panic:

Dont like the agency idea and i really cannot see children going into school at 2, i think that there would be an uproar :mad:

Free childcare as one mum told me today :(

wendywu
29-01-2013, 09:14 PM
Free childcare as one mum told me today :(

With opinions like that i would not call her any sort of Mother :angry:

rosebud
29-01-2013, 09:24 PM
No... you are being helpful... you are helping me by pointing out other views which I can use to build into my thinking.

I know why it wouldn't work for me - and many others said it wouldn't work for them - and that's why I started the petition in the first place.

But that doesn't mean we are all right - it just means that in our areas, in our positions etc we have concerns.

I can see some benefits to an agency - esp for new minders - but not if I have to give them a high percentage of my income, wait for them to send work my way, rely on them for my inspection grading, use paperwork they produce, jump through extra hoops, have them turn up to make suggestions that are frankly silly...

do you see what I mean?? :D

Absolutely Sarah. And all reasons why I would not use an agency either but its easy to forget how hard it is when you're just starting out and know nothing. (In my case absolutely nothing!)
Another thought - the report talks about not duplicating work by taking the emphasis away from LA's and that only Ofsted will do inspections and that accessibility to 2-3-4 year old funding will be based on Ofsteds ratings. However it seems to me that much of the work they want agencies to do is what LA'a are already doing - training, etc

hectors house
29-01-2013, 09:41 PM
Sounds to me like the developemnt workers are at risk and with that the free or subsidised training we now enjoy.
This comes from the comments about ofsted being the bench mark for qualifying for drawing down funding which will free up money lea will no longer need to spend,

Development officers in Somerset are all being made redundant in the Summer - they are working on skeleton staff anyway as rest of them went in redundancies last year!

loocyloo
29-01-2013, 09:50 PM
i wouldn't use an agency ...

my LA is very supportive with helpful, generally knowlegdable staff and good training frequently at weekends. i am acreddiated and have children on both 2 yr & nursery funding. ( i just had to have a level 3 and be good or outstanding to be accrediated ) my LA FIS & local childrens centres act like an agency in signposting parents to childminders. i am in a rural area with only a handful of childminders in a 10mile radius and then its probably up to 20 miles in some directions before you find another childminder. we are all busy, but only as busy as we want to be. i am outstanding and have 25yrs + of experience. whilst i am happy to share & support, i don't want MY grading boosting a weaker childminder, nor to i want to be told who i can look after and for how much! AND have to pay for experience! i couldn't afford to, not without putting up my fees!

i am concerned that ofsted could cope with what might be asked of it. after all, they couldn't even manage to get new certificates out to all childminders in time, yet we had to hit the ground running on the 1st sept 2012!

i'm horrifed about 2 yr olds being in school, bless, some of the reception children i know can't handle being in school!

and i don't know where they think all these children are!!! or what the parents are going to do jobwise! we don't all live in big cities!

being able to have 4 under 5 will help me, as i will be able to take on funded 2 yr olds and be able to offer them the hours/days that suit, rather than shoe horn them into odd spaces, rather than losing fulltime fees for a very part time child.

good luck sarah, making sense of what everyone is saying!

sorry its a bit rambled & garbled, my brain has heard so much today it is flitting around all over the place.

nipper
29-01-2013, 09:52 PM
Development officers in Somerset are all being made redundant in the Summer - they are working on skeleton staff anyway as rest of them went in redundancies last year!

Same thing has happened here. Lots of people being 'moved around'. Infact just before Christmas we all received an email from a member of our local childminding team saying her job had been 'reassigned' and she was leaving. This particular lady was wonderful and spearheaded many of the courses that I attended. She said in the email that she was taking a long holiday down under and then would be 'setting up her own business';) I think now, it sounds as if she knew what was about to happen.

FussyElmo
29-01-2013, 09:56 PM
I can see this now being the end of the road for our do's. Yes we had to do more than ofsted expects to get accreditation but it stopped cms just turning up and not putting the effort in. We all know the cms who this applies too :-(

hectors house
29-01-2013, 10:13 PM
Sarah - I don't really know what I want, so easier to say what I don't want -

I definitely don't want to work for an agency

I don't think nurseries should be allowed to double their ratios - even if their staff are better qualified than they are at present - nurseries should offer similar to childminders, a nuturing learning environment not just offer crowd control with tiny tots sitting at tables learning to read and write.

If nurseries are allowed to increase numbers and they do bend to Ms Truss's wishes and lower costs, I may struggle to get enough work - I tick along nicely with my current ratios.

I could manage 4 children if I was careful with their ages but certainly wouldn't want all little ones - managed to get out to a toddler group with a 13 month, 20 month and 2 1/2 year old today, but couldn't and wouldn't want another one under 2 as haven't got eyes in back of head and as you said in your starter thread it is all fine until something goes wrong or several children need your attention at the same time.

I am looking into doing funded spaces for 2 & 3 year olds but not sure I want Ofsted inspecting me for that

Thank you Sarah for organising the petition and for all your hard work at keeping us informed - you really are a star :clapping:

sharonmanc
29-01-2013, 10:33 PM
Agencies are my big worry too, especially if they deal with 2 and 3 year old funding and if this is how parents can access tax credits, then if i opt not to be part of an Agency as apparently it is voluntary ( but for how long) then I would virtually be dead in the water as I would be forced to sign with an Agency so parents could access this funding, and in the process loose my independence.

sarak31
29-01-2013, 11:05 PM
Agencies are my concern too although I would question how sustainable the model they have put together is. My concern is I think although they are saying they are voluntary in order for them to work they will have to try to push us towards them otherwise they will just have two systems operating alongside each other which clearly can't be their intention. I suspect what will happen will be that all funding, training, support, accreditation etc will only be available if you are part of the network. Therefore effectively freezing those that aren't part of the network out. They may say that if you choose to remain outside of the network you choose to remain a self employed sole trader and as such will be responsible for all your own training, support costs etc etc.

I have no idea how they are intending to run the networks paying childminders a 'wage'. I think the idea of paying a percentage, whilst a better (but still bad) idea than a wage, just isn't going to work - if networks have the power to send business to which ever childminder they want then the percentage of earnings can be open to abuse - it isn't transparent enough for a local council approach they will want something less open to favourtism. Therefore I think they will offer a 'wage' to childminders which I can't see how this will work - if someone has 1 child will they be paid the same as someone with 3, will someone be able to say they only want to fill one space or will they be required to fill all available spaces? I just can't see how they can work the payment part of the networks in a sustainable way so a little bit of me is thinking we are worrying about nothing as I just can't see how it will work.

I also see the networks as failing as they can't possibly shut down independent businesses like childcare.co.uk where lots of us get our business direct. So many of us will still be operating and speaking with parents directly, the network just won't get much business and those that are part of the network will either be forced to leave and go it alone or will fall apart. I certainly know that the FIS in my area doesn't get much business - I can't remember the last parent that came to me via there, it is all direct through websites like childcare.co.uk - and the children's centers also rarely get enquiries.

The only way I can see the networks working is if they let childminders operate as independent self employed entities still and offer support and quality improvement - as some networks do now - but in a more focused way and make it compulsory and force a percentage of wage payment for this support. (which I would equally dislike but can see how it would benefit new childminders as there is a lack of information out there for them and this would be great for them). The way they have set it up now just isn't going to be sustainable though and won't last 2 minutes I am sure!

Re the ratios - I think in principle I am neither for or against - I would appreciate the flexibility in my own setting where there is a cross over in ages for under 1s for example for a month as I don't care for over 5s so would always be under my numbers but my ratios need flexibility sometimes iyswim. The continuity of care is ok but doesn't cover new business where you might want a 11m old and then take on a 6m old but you have still got that month before the 11m is out of your under 1s. But I wouldn't change my numbers ultimately on a permanent basis I don't think. I think where they have got this wrong is they have linked it to qualification only - I think it should be 2 fold. I think the requirements should be qualifications plus a good or outstanding ofsted OR 5 years experience and a good or outstanding childminder. You can have all the qualifications in the world but be a rubbish childminder and vice versa - you can be a brilliant childminder but not have the qualifications they have decided they want this year (as it seems to be an ever moving feast at the moment!)

For what it's worth I think they have pretty much made their minds up about agencies and time will tell over the next 6 months or so how it will all work and what the implications are on us.

Tazmin68
30-01-2013, 06:48 AM
It is the fact that parents will not longer pay but pay the agency that I find the issue. Parents have already told me that they want o pay me not an agency and that contract is with me not agency. La don't always pay childcare fees on time for examp 2,3 and 4 year funding. I have had a child on placement with me now for 10 weeks with ss and I still have not been paid. If I had to pay a fee I would prefer it done on direct debit basis and parents pay me for childcare first.

loocyloo
30-01-2013, 08:38 AM
just thought, what doesn't seem to have been thought about is that childminders are (generally) not doing this job for a hobby, or a bit of pocket money! it is our fulltime job and what we do to earn a living. we can't hang around waiting for weeks for agencies etc to get round to paying us, or make mistakes, as need to pay bills/mortgages/food etc!

TooEarlyForGin?
30-01-2013, 08:56 AM
Agree with pretty much what everyone else said.

Agencies worry me - although currently not mandatory - we all know what will happen if they go ahead!

Children starting school at 2 :(

I am fed up of doing double work for OFSTED and the LA, I have just filled in tonnes of paperwork for them to justify me carrying on being accredited. I have all my own paperwork to show, but they wanted it filled in on their forms, so I would actually welcome a change that all childminders have to meet the same accreditation levels for funding, as it varies so wildly from LA to LA, it is unfair on families.

Us having 4 - I think that treated reasonably its something we all can utilise, to help current families and give us more flexibility, but concerns already saying "so if we can have 4, can we have 5 if we do a variation". It will be the unscrupulous that will take on as many as possible.

I have already had one parent concerned I will just take on extra business, I have assured her I won't. I will only go to 4 for current families, children I know and when it is safe to do so. She said it would negate the reason she uses a childminder. If anything she mentioned the ratios of nurseries. I understand your point Sarah that it may start a price war, but she is horrified that one person would be in charge of 6 - 2 year olds. She said what if they had staff off sick, it would be a potential nightmare and would now not ever use a nursery, so maybe a good sales point for us.

justgoodfriends
30-01-2013, 08:57 AM
Would we still be required to implement the EYFS if we are regulated by agencies?

LauraS
30-01-2013, 09:42 AM
Would we still be required to implement the EYFS if we are regulated by agencies?

Of course, and no doubt the agency will stick their oar in regarding HOW we implement it too.

It's sad, I'm frightened that I'm going to stop being self employed with the freedom to run my business according to my own judgement and philosophy, and become a contractor working to someone else preferences. It would mean combining the worst elements of home working and SE with the worst elements of being trapped working for a nursery.

If.it happens like that, I'll be going back to my old profession and I know some other cms wouldn't want to work like that either. They may well struggle to recruit anyone beyond those who want to make some extra pocket money imo.

SammySplodger
30-01-2013, 09:49 AM
I choose to be a Childminder because I wish to offer good QUALITY childcare and I already voluntarily stay well below the existing ratio. I do not subscribe to the 'pile them high' mentality. My parents are happy to pay me slightly more than the going rate locally because I only ever have 3 children maximum. I will not be taking on more children, although I would consider two unrelated babies under 12 months. To be honest, I do not understand why I can't already do this, as toddlers can be harder to keep tabs on than babies.

So, I'm not taking on any extras and I won't drop my rates either.

As far as agencies go, I want nothing to do with them. I am SELF employed, perfectly capable of finding clients and I cannot see any benefit in using an agency - surely they can't make this compulsory?

Part of me would love to never have to deal with Ofsted ever again, but I can see that registration inspections give us credibility. I'd welcome more thought on adapting the existing Ofsted system, to cut costs, but only if it can also truly benefit us. Not sure how exactly... Maybe making inspections less time consuming and some evidence being online, over the phone or paper-based, so that the actual visit only lasts about an hour?

SammySplodger
30-01-2013, 09:57 AM
Sorry if I'm being thick - but do we have a Union? Does anyone belong to one? How do we go about representing opposition to Agencies properly? I'm more concerned about that part of the issue than the ratios, as I'm worried about Agencies being linked to Parents claiming tax benefits. So depressing...

rosebud
30-01-2013, 10:13 AM
Agencies are my big worry too, especially if they deal with 2 and 3 year old funding and if this is how parents can access tax credits, then if i opt not to be part of an Agency as apparently it is voluntary ( but for how long) then I would virtually be dead in the water as I would be forced to sign with an Agency so parents could access this funding, and in the process loose my independence.

I would like reassurance that if I choose to remain self-employed (I do not want to join an agency) that I will still be able to offer funded places and that parents will still be able to use tax credits and voucher schemes to assist with paying me. This has not been made clear and is a big concern for me. If the only way that parents can claim such assistance or use funded places is to go through an agency then I will have no business. In 9 and a half years I have only had one family who has not had some kind of financial support -either through tax credits or voucher schemes or the child has been funded by the LA. I need to be able to offer this to stay in business.

Tazmin68
30-01-2013, 10:15 AM
What concerns me is that is sounds that only the minders linked to the agencies will be able to have children whose childcare is paid for through tax credits, childcare vouchers, 2,3 and 4 year old funding. That will cover the majority of us. I have two families using tax credits, I currently provide childcare for 2 and 3 year old funded children so I would be forced to become linked to an agency.

nipper
30-01-2013, 10:18 AM
I also see the networks as failing as they can't possibly shut down independent businesses like childcare.co.uk where lots of us get our business direct. So many of us will still be operating and speaking with parents directly, the network just won't get much business and those that are part of the network will either be forced to leave and go it alone or will fall apart. I certainly know that the FIS in my area doesn't get much business - I can't remember the last parent that came to me via there, it is all direct through websites like childcare.co.uk - and the children's centers also rarely get enquiries.



I agree wholeheartedly with this as well. I mean come on, in this day and age with the internet what do you do if you need something or you want to shop around ...you Google it. I cannot honestly see many parents using childcare agencies when they can do their own research. Childcare.co.uk affectively cuts out the middleman and I for one will continue to use it as most of my mindees have come about as a result of its existence.

Kiddleywinks
30-01-2013, 10:27 AM
I would like reassurance that if I choose to remain self-employed (I do not want to join an agency) that I will still be able to offer funded places and that parents will still be able to use tax credits and voucher schemes to assist with paying me. This has not been made clear and is a big concern for me. If the only way that parents can claim such assistance or use funded places is to go through an agency then I will have no business. In 9 and a half years I have only had one family who has not had some kind of financial support -either through tax credits or voucher schemes or the child has been funded by the LA. I need to be able to offer this to stay in business.

That is also my biggest concern with the introduction of an agency system. I feel longer term plans will 'downgrade' independent childminders in that parents will not be able to access government childcare relief systems (tax credits, vouchers etc) to pay for our fees.

To me, an agency would just a glorified nursery system and there are enough nurseries to choose from as it is, they will also be able to increase their numbers under a new system so why have an agency?

Mouse
30-01-2013, 10:27 AM
What concerns me is that is sounds that only the minders linked to the agencies will be able to have children whose childcare is paid for through tax credits, childcare vouchers, 2,3 and 4 year old funding. That will cover the majority of us. I have two families using tax credits, I currently provide childcare for 2 and 3 year old funded children so I would be forced to become linked to an agency.

That's interesting. Where have you seen that as I can't find anything that says only cms linked to an agency will be eligible for tax credits etc. That's my fear at the moment as that would give me very little choice about whether or not to join an agency.

Tazmin68
30-01-2013, 10:48 AM
I read the info from the nursery world website which also did not say that is was optional so I really think we need clarification on will it effect all funding and optional or not but if we are going to be left out in the cold by not joining ie support and training then it looks like there might be any option but to join. I cannot see us being able to opt out and carry on as normal somewhere down the line it will end up in or out!!!!!!

As I have funded children I will have no option if that happens and my fees will go up to cover agency fees.

Tazmin68
30-01-2013, 11:00 AM
I read the info from the nursery world website which also did not say that is was optional so I really think we need clarification on will it effect all funding and optional or not but if we are going to be left out in the cold by not joining ie support and training then it looks like there might be any option but to join. I cannot see us being able to opt out and carry on as normal somewhere down the line it will end up in or out!!!!!!

As I have funded children I will have no option if that happens and my fees will go up to cover agency fees.

I have read through it again and yes it does state the agency is optional. It does state that the agency will deal will gov funding ie 2,3 and 4 year olds. I cannot see them letting both agency and non agency minders both care for funded children it would defeat the object.

Kiddleywinks
30-01-2013, 11:02 AM
That's interesting. Where have you seen that as I can't find anything that says only cms linked to an agency will be eligible for tax credits etc. That's my fear at the moment as that would give me very little choice about whether or not to join an agency.

Don't think it says anything about the tax credits eligibility only being available to agency minders Mouse, just people's gut feelings as to where it could be heading.

Government want to cut costs

Independent minder charges an average of £4 per child per hour x 6 children = £24 per hour
If those 6 children were subsidised by the government just on tax credits @ 70% they're forking out £16.80 an hour for parents to use an independent minder

Now, say (for arguments sake)
Agency minders are paid £10 per hour (for upto 6 children)
Plus £5 (a 50% cut) for the agency for costs
Makes the same care £15.00 an hour

Now if the government are still funding 70% of that, it will only cost them £10.50, saving £6.30 an hour

Doesn't take a genius to figure out where the government are going to head with this one :panic:

and trust me, I am no genius.

I do however have a maths GCSE and one in English - maybe I should go after 'her' job ;)


Yes, joining an agency is optional, but I doubt it will take long for it to not be a viable option - one simple change in the law of where tax credits and/or vouchers can be used and it's game over!

Mouse
30-01-2013, 11:34 AM
Don't think it says anything about the tax credits eligibility only being available to agency minders Mouse, just people's gut feelings as to where it could be heading.

Government want to cut costs

Independent minder charges an average of £4 per child per hour x 6 children = £24 per hour
If those 6 children were subsidised by the government just on tax credits @ 70% they're forking out £16.80 an hour for parents to use an independent minder

Now, say (for arguments sake)
Agency minders are paid £10 per hour (for upto 6 children)
Plus £5 (a 50% cut) for the agency for costs
Makes the same care £15.00 an hour

Now if the government are still funding 70% of that, it will only cost them £10.50, saving £6.30 an hour

Doesn't take a genius to figure out where the government are going to head with this one :panic:

and trust me, I am no genius.

I do however have a maths GCSE and one in English - maybe I should go after 'her' job ;)


Yes, joining an agency is optional, but I doubt it will take long for it to not be a viable option - one simple change in the law of where tax credits and/or vouchers can be used and it's game over!

But 6 children could only include school children, so not a typical hourly rate other than in holidays & after school. In general, during the day it would be a maximum of 4 young children @ £4 and hour = £16. 70% of that is £11.20
If you're assuming an agency would pay £10 an hour for all the children, add in their £5 fee, making £15, of which tax credits could pay £10.50...a saving of 70p!

That's why plucking figures out of thin air is meaningless. You cannot compare what an agency might possibly charge when we have no idea at all about how they're going to work.

If it was a set rate of £10 an hour I'd jump at the chance...and only look after 1 child! Brilliant pay for 1-2-1 care!

Kiddleywinks
30-01-2013, 12:25 PM
But 6 children could only include school children, so not a typical hourly rate other than in holidays & after school. In general, during the day it would be a maximum of 4 young children @ £4 and hour = £16. 70% of that is £11.20
If you're assuming an agency would pay £10 an hour for all the children, add in their £5 fee, making £15, of which tax credits could pay £10.50...a saving of 70p!

That's why plucking figures out of thin air is meaningless. You cannot compare what an agency might possibly charge when we have no idea at all about how they're going to work.

If it was a set rate of £10 an hour I'd jump at the chance...and only look after 1 child! Brilliant pay for 1-2-1 care!

I see what you're saying (plucking figures is pretty meaningless at this stage :thumbsup:), but the gist of where things look like they're heading remains the same.
I do 'get' that it's all if's, but's, and maybe's, but at the moment that's ALL we have.
I'm all for changes to help parents, but not at the risk of damaging my own way of life. I LIKE being self employed. I LIKE being able to choose parents that I feel comfortable with, I LIKE the fact that parents have chosen ME, I LIKE the fact that I can bend the rules a little because I feel like being nice/kind with no one else's approval to be sought, (parent overslept last week, should have charged, but didn't. It didn't take me over my numbers, I only had to answer to myself, and I knew parent had been working overtime so must have been shattered as she is NEVER late.)

If I wanted to be employed, I'd have sought work at a nursery, a preschool etc

Ratio's this time are remaining the same 1:6, but a small change of having 2 under 1's, and 4 under 5's.
Next time, which there will be, as this change has 'worked so well' maybe the powers that be will change it so that we and nurseries are on the same ratios...?

The government are looking at cutting costs, we all know that the tax credits system as it stands isn't the most reliably monitored in it's current form.
Introduce a route (agency) where the direction of funds is more accountable, kills two birds with one stone - saves the government money, and allegedly saves parents money too.
It's what happens to the independents like you, me and others here that bothers me with this introduction, and no, I realise it won't happen today or tomorrow, (it's going to take some time to put everything in place for this agency model) but in 5 years time where will we be?
It may well be that a choice of agencies means we can opt for one that doesn't change our individuality too much - an LA one for example, might work much the same way as a network does now, so yes, we will have to wait and see what form/s it takes, however I personally still feel very uneasy about where I suspect things are heading - I sincerely hope I'm very, very wrong

FussyElmo
30-01-2013, 12:47 PM
Heres a scenario.

20 cms join a agency - they pay a percentage of what they earn to the agency or the parents pay more for the privedge of using said agency. However there is only enough work for 10 cms. Do the cms who have work pay more to the payments for 10 who dont. Will the fees go up for the parents to cover the shortfall.

Not such a widely imaginative scenario I have two cm friends who are in 5 mins distance of me we have 8 under 5 spaces between us but only 2 are filled. I know of others who are exactly the same :(

The government can increase the ratios all they want but that still wont make the jobs for people to go to available.

Nothing I have read suggest that tax credits etc wont be paid to independent childminders in fact if the government were to do so you could actually present a case that the market is being cornered and there has to be competition.

Mouse
30-01-2013, 12:56 PM
I see what you're saying (plucking figures is pretty meaningless at this stage :thumbsup:), but the gist of where things look like they're heading remains the same.
I do 'get' that it's all if's, but's, and maybe's, but at the moment that's ALL we have.
I'm all for changes to help parents, but not at the risk of damaging my own way of life. I LIKE being self employed. I LIKE being able to choose parents that I feel comfortable with, I LIKE the fact that parents have chosen ME, I LIKE the fact that I can bend the rules a little because I feel like being nice/kind with no one else's approval to be sought, (parent overslept last week, should have charged, but didn't. It didn't take me over my numbers, I only had to answer to myself, and I knew parent had been working overtime so must have been shattered as she is NEVER late.)

If I wanted to be employed, I'd have sought work at a nursery, a preschool etc

Ratio's this time are remaining the same 1:6, but a small change of having 2 under 1's, and 4 under 5's.
Next time, which there will be, as this change has 'worked so well' maybe the powers that be will change it so that we and nurseries are on the same ratios...?

The government are looking at cutting costs, we all know that the tax credits system as it stands isn't the most reliably monitored in it's current form.
Introduce a route (agency) where the direction of funds is more accountable, kills two birds with one stone - saves the government money, and allegedly saves parents money too.
It's what happens to the independents like you, me and others here that bothers me with this introduction, and no, I realise it won't happen today or tomorrow, (it's going to take some time to put everything in place for this agency model) but in 5 years time where will we be?
It may well be that a choice of agencies means we can opt for one that doesn't change our individuality too much - an LA one for example, might work much the same way as a network does now, so yes, we will have to wait and see what form/s it takes, however I personally still feel very uneasy about where I suspect things are heading - I sincerely hope I'm very, very wrong

I'm afraid I just can't get myself worked up about things that might, or might not ever happen. It's just my nature to always look on the bright side. I don't waste any energy on worrying about what might be. I prefer to wait until I know what is actually going to happen, then put all my energy into fighting for what I don't think is right. The thought of agencies concerns me, but certainly doesn't panic me & I won't lose any sleep over it yet. That might change when the actual plans are known, but I don't see the point in considering all the 'what ifs' now :thumbsup:

Kiddleywinks
30-01-2013, 04:35 PM
I'm just a born worrier lol

I used to work for British Rail, I worried about the privatisation when it was first announced it was a possibility
I worked for a training company, I got worried when we started to go down to 20 trainees, then 12, then 6, when we closed for 6 weeks (great for me as it was the school holidays lol) I REALLY started worrying, 4 months later the company went pop


:laughing::thumbsup:

AgentTink
30-01-2013, 06:10 PM
I'm afraid I just can't get myself worked up about things that might, or might not ever happen. It's just my nature to always look on the bright side. I don't waste any energy on worrying about what might be. I prefer to wait until I know what is actually going to happen, then put all my energy into fighting for what I don't think is right. The thought of agencies concerns me, but certainly doesn't panic me & I won't lose any sleep over it yet. That might change when the actual plans are known, but I don't see the point in considering all the 'what ifs' now :thumbsup:

I am with you on this one Mouse. I am not concerned by agencies because lets face it, no one is going to agree to work for such low pay, so how on earth would any agency sign up childminders if there wasn't a win-win situation for all involved (childminder, agency and parent)

I think some agency's may actually benefit some areas if they are run by the LA or a Local School. They could raise the profile of childminders for example. But until an agency is actually set up and running then everything is just what-if's right now.

Nowhere in the offical document does it state that only agency workers will get funding for 2, 3 and 4 year olds, so for now i will just carry on with my day job and wait to see what information gets released by the government in due course.

AgentTink
30-01-2013, 06:21 PM
I read the info from the nursery world website which also did not say that is was optional so I really think we need clarification on will it effect all funding and optional or not but if we are going to be left out in the cold by not joining ie support and training then it looks like there might be any option but to join. I cannot see us being able to opt out and carry on as normal somewhere down the line it will end up in or out!!!!!!

As I have funded children I will have no option if that happens and my fees will go up to cover agency fees.

I believe the quote you have read is the following for nursery world:
"So the idea is that if you want to be a childminder you register with the agency, they would do things like sort out your training, your insurance, they would market your services to parents, they’d deal with Government funding, collect money from parents and you as a childminder would be paid as part of that."

This statement was in the context of the question of getting more childminders to join the field, as apparently so many had left in the last 10 years due to not liking all the paperwork. All it states is that if you did join a agency they would do everything for you such as deal with government funding. In my opinion this does not say that only agency childminders will get funding.

In the report it goes as far to say that actually it will be Ofsted's rating of childminders/nurseries that will dictate whether we can give funding and we wont have to jump through so many LA hoops to offer it, like some do at the present time.

sarah707
30-01-2013, 07:36 PM
I have read every reply ... and I want to thank every one of you! :clapping:

I now have 2 pages of scribbles that I am going to put into some semblance of order :laughing:

Thank you xx

justgoodfriends
30-01-2013, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by justgoodfriends

Would we still be required to implement the EYFS if we are regulated by agencies?

[QUOTE=LauraS;1204149]Of course, and no doubt the agency will stick their oar in regarding HOW we implement it too.

Given that Sir Wilshaw made it clear that he thinks childminders are 'not using the EYFS properly' and Liz Truss has said last year that she doesn't think we should have to, it's not inconceivable that agency childminders would be exempt from implementing it is it?

On the info given on the NCMA website about the proposals it says
The Minister has made clear at recent consultation meetings and in media articles that the model is now being considered as an option for childminders who could also choose to remain independent and inspected as individuals by Ofsted if they preferred. In particular Ms Truss has said she sees the model working best for childminders new to the profession, those struggling to fill vacancies or run a business. It still remains unclear whether the agency would or would not be required to operate within the EYFS framework.

http://www.*************/news/campaigns/individual_inspection_matters/iim_update_briefing/the_agency_model.aspx

lisbet
31-01-2013, 03:00 PM
1. No to agencies and group inspections

I am lucky and my LA provides a fab childminding support team already, without curtailing child minders autonomy. Also, there are 3 children's centres near me, but I would only be happy about being linked to one of those for the purposes of agency/ group inspections.


2. No to increasing the number of children each adult can care for in a nursery setting.

I used to work in a nursery that strove to give responsive care to each baby and child, and it was challenging enough under current ratios, regardless of our level of education and expertise. I think more children per adult will damage the quality of relationships and early years experiences, and have an especially negative impact on the most vulnerable children.

3. No to the 'schoolifcation' of the early years!!!

Getting children into school environments from 2yrs old and 'traditional' nursery classes teaching young children to read and write is just not developmentally appropriate :( and shows a disregard for all the ways that the EYFS currently supports children's learning and development across the range of areas.

lisbet
31-01-2013, 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by justgoodfriends

Would we still be required to implement the EYFS if we are regulated by agencies?

[QUOTE=LauraS;1204149]Of course, and no doubt the agency will stick their oar in regarding HOW we implement it too.

Given that Sir Wilshaw made it clear that he thinks childminders are 'not using the EYFS properly' and Liz Truss has said last year that she doesn't think we should have to, it's not inconceivable that agency childminders would be exempt from implementing it is it?

On the info given on the NCMA website about the proposals it says
The Minister has made clear at recent consultation meetings and in media articles that the model is now being considered as an option for childminders who could also choose to remain independent and inspected as individuals by Ofsted if they preferred. In particular Ms Truss has said she sees the model working best for childminders new to the profession, those struggling to fill vacancies or run a business. It still remains unclear whether the agency would or would not be required to operate within the EYFS framework.

http://www.*************/news/campaigns/individual_inspection_matters/iim_update_briefing/the_agency_model.aspx

I noticed that in ET's report it defined nurseries as providing 'education and care' and child minders as providing 'care'. :mad:

Think they are trying to turn the clock back to how things were before the EYFS 2008 was introduced to promote equal status for all early years providers. :(

bunyip
31-01-2013, 06:02 PM
Sarah - don't make too much work for yourself right now.

You do realise that in a few months time we'll all be begging you to fill the free downloads section with resources for teaching quantum physics to 2yo's. :p

:rolleyes: