Have I misunderstood this?

[lorettacritchet]

I wrote to ofsted today and got a quick reply but not sure if am misunderstanding what was actually written. I know at the moment people are saying that the decision making on increasing our already cared for children (continuous care) is up to us but from what I understand the below says we are also to make decisions to increase for new business too????? :( have i gone mad?

In regards to your enquiry about your garage conversion, if the increase in numbers is required before 1st September 2012, we will require you to complete a variation proforma. If it is required after 1st September 2012, it will be solely down to the provider to make decisions regarding increases in numbers. Ofsted have provided factsheets to help assist providers in making these decisions. However, Ofsted will not make the decisions for the provider. It is down to provider to interpret the Early Years Foundation Stage document in regards to variations to numbers.

We are removing your conditions of registration to reflect the fact that you may now make these decisions and not Ofsted.

[blue bear]

What exactly was your question? Was it to do with extra space available or having an assistant.

[Penny1959]

My understanding is

If you are increasing the amount of space - and lack of space was restricting your numbers or would have stopped you increasing numbers with an assistant

Then yes you can decide for new business because it is the increased space that is changing.

This is different to an exception to go over normal ratios

Not sure explained well and as on phone limited screen size to read back

Penny :)

[lorettacritchet]

Sorry, my question was if I get a garage conversion and wanted to increase my numbers for new business what should I do?

QUOTE=blue bear;1141207]What exactly was your question? Was it to do with extra space available or having an assistant.[/QUOTE]

[Mouse]

I think it's saying you can decide for yourself if you can increase your numbers, as long as you stick to the EYFS requirements.

So, if you are already registered for 6 children under 8, you can't increase your numbers anyway as that's the maximum allowed. But if you are limited to 4, say, because of lack of space at the moment, then you could make the decision yourself to increase your number to 6, as long as you have enough floor space, as set out in the framework.

[lorettacritchet]

But you can increase numbers provided an assistant works with you :)


I think it's saying you can decide for yourself if you can increase your numbers, as long as you stick to the EYFS requirements.

So, if you are already registered for 6 children under 8, you can't increase your numbers anyway as that's the maximum allowed. But if you are limited to 4, say, because of lack of space at the moment, then you could make the decision yourself to increase your number to 6, as long as you have enough floor space, as set out in the framework.

[Penny1959]

I think it's saying you can decide for yourself if you can increase your numbers, as long as you stick to the EYFS requirements.

So, if you are already registered for 6 children under 8, you can't increase your numbers anyway as that's the maximum allowed. But if you are limited to 4, say, because of lack of space at the moment, then you could make the decision yourself to increase your number to 6, as long as you have enough floor space, as set out in the framework.

much better explained Mouse.

Also if increase space then might be able to increase numbers by having an assistant.

Penny:)

[Mouse]

But you can increase numbers provided an assistant works with you :)

Yes, as long as you have sufficient floor space. Increasing numbers for new business when you have an assistant has always been possible.

[lorettacritchet]

Yes, I know this but usually to increase numbers for new business you would have to apply for Ofsted, they are now saying we don't need to speak to them at all regardless of whether an assistant is working with you or not. I believed we could only make the decision to increase numbers provided child is already in carre (continuous care)



Yes, as long as you have sufficient floor space. Increasing numbers for new business when you have an assistant has always been possible.

[bunyip]

I think it's saying you can decide for yourself if you can increase your numbers, as long as you stick to the EYFS requirements.

So, if you are already registered for 6 children under 8, you can't increase your numbers anyway as that's the maximum allowed. But if you are limited to 4, say, because of lack of space at the moment, then you could make the decision yourself to increase your number to 6, as long as you have enough floor space, as set out in the framework.

This keeps coming up, and a lot of CMs seem to think they can have pretty much whatever numbers they want. But that's not what Ofsted are saying. In effect, they're saying "You're all grown up now, so read the framework document and follow it."

EYFS Statutory framework sections 3.39 and 3.40 cover it. I don't see anything radically different to the current ratios in there.

The only thing that has changed is that you don't have to ask Ofsted to write it on your certificate, cos it's already written in the framework document.

[lorettacritchet]

I am not enquiring ofsted about current numbers, in the future I want to be able to have NEW business and not just the continous care which is what I understood we could decide on so long as RA's are completed and parents agree.



This keeps coming up, and a lot of CMs seem to think they can have pretty much whatever numbers they want. But that's not what Ofsted are saying.

EYFS Statutory framework sections 3.39 and 3.40 cover it. I don't see anything different to the current ratios in there.

The only thing that has changed is that you don't have to ask Ofsted to write it on your certificate, cos it's already written in the framework document.

[Mouse]

I am not enquiring ofsted about current numbers, in the future I want to be able to have NEW business and not just the continous care which is what I understood we could decide on so long as RA's are completed and parents agree.

There's a difference between increasing total numbers (ie. because of increased floor space or taking on an assistant) and varying the ratio of children in the EY age group.

You have always been able to increase you numbers if you took on an assistant (as long as you had the space etc), but you had to apply to Ofsted for this. This could always be for new business, not continuity of care.
Now they are saying you can still do the same, but don't have to ask Ofsted first.

Similarly, you could apply to Ofsted to vary the ratio of children in the EY age group. This was only for continuity of care. Again, you'll be able to do this yourself now as long as you stick to the rules.

[Penny1959]

I am not enquiring ofsted about current numbers, in the future I want to be able to have NEW business and not just the continous care which is what I understood we could decide on so long as RA's are completed and parents agree.

I am confused as to what you are trying to clarify.

To take on new business now and under EYFS 2012 you must have the a place available.

You can increase the number of spaces available by taking on an assistant subject to sufficent floor space.

To be clear Maximum number of children you may care for is 3 under 5 unless applying an exception for co to uity of care

An assitant means max numbers 6 under 5 unless applying exception for co tinuity of care.

Maybe the question you should ask yourself is - could I do this now? Would I need a varaiation? Because basically in Sept the same rules will apply.

Penny

[Bluebell]

Can I just clarify - the numbers can be changed at our interpretation of the rules according to the new EYFS - but we would still have to get a new assistant 'authorised' by Ofsted or named in some way in connection to us? When I applied to extend my numbers when working with an assistant I had to name the assistant.
Or can it be anyone at our discretion as long as they are appropiately CRB checked?

[blue bear]

[QUOTE=lorettacritchet;1141209]Sorry, my question was if I get a garage conversion and wanted to increase my numbers for new business what should I do?

What do you mean by new business,
1) are you talking about more than 3 under 5?
2) more than 6 under 8 (with an assistant)
3) increasing your current numbers which are currently capped because of lack of space in your house before conversion

[bunyip]

I am not enquiring ofsted about current numbers, in the future I want to be able to have NEW business and not just the continous care which is what I understood we could decide on so long as RA's are completed and parents agree.

Cut&paste from the EYFS Framework:
"3.40 If a childminder can demonstrate to parents and/or carers and inspectors, that the individual needs of all the children are being met, then exceptions to the usual ratios can be made when childminders are caring for sibling babies, or when caring for their own baby. If children aged four and five only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, and/or during school holidays, they may be cared for at the same time as three other young children. But in all circumstances, the total number of children under the age of eight being cared for must not exceed six."

That is continuity of care. It is not new business.

You can only increase for new business if you're changing something else: eg. adding an assistant, or increasing available space if a lack of space was previously keeping your numbers below the normal limits.

Oddly, and I had cause to enquire Ofsted about this recently, you can go rather quickly from 2 to 4 EY children by adding 2 siblings. You have to stagger the start dates, so you can claim that the first is 'new business', give it a couple of weeks to say they're settled, then add the sibling in under 'continuity of care.' Yup, it's crazy.:rolleyes:

[Chatterbox Childcare]

To sum it up:

After Sept 2012 you can increase your numbers when on your own due to continuity of care (change to contract for current children) if a sibling comes along or if you have another child yourself

You CANNOT do it just for new business

If you take on an assistant and you have the floor space then you can double your current capacity

At all times you MUST keep within the EYFS guidelines on numbers and floor space

It is all in the new EYFS book - have a look and I am sure it will become clear:)

[lorettacritchet]

I know I sound really dopey but you say " you can double your current capacity with an assistant if have the floor space" but if I convert the garage and current children have no siblings and I get new business because of this extra, then is what you're saying I don't need to do to speak to ofsted


To sum it up:

After Sept 2012 you can increase your numbers when on your own due to continuity of care (change to contract for current children) if a sibling comes along or if you have another child yourself

You CANNOT do it just for new business

If you take on an assistant and you have the floor space then you can double your current capacity

At all times you MUST keep within the EYFS guidelines on numbers and floor space

It is all in the new EYFS book - have a look and I am sure it will become clear:)

[Chatterbox Childcare]

No longer talk to Ofsted. YOU have to do the calculations, regulate yourself and Ofsted will check that you are doing it right on inspection

[lorettacritchet]

Yeah I knew that for continous care but wasnt sure about the new business side of things.


No longer talk to Ofsted. YOU have to do the calculations, regulate yourself and Ofsted will check that you are doing it right on inspection

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Yeah I knew that for continous care but wasnt sure about the new business side of things.

Everything!

Read the EYFS - it is all clearly detailed

Ofsted no longer set any of our numbers - we self regulate

[lorettacritchet]

After getting the garage conversion, i would have an assistant probably working permanently with me as numbers would then rise. New business, so I am refering to the more than 6 under 8 (with an assistant).... not continuing care for already children in setting.



[QUOTE=lorettacritchet;1141209]Sorry, my question was if I get a garage conversion and wanted to increase my numbers for new business what should I do?

What do you mean by new business,
1) are you talking about more than 3 under 5?
2) more than 6 under 8 (with an assistant)
3) increasing your current numbers which are currently capped because of lack of space in your house before conversion

[Chatterbox Childcare]

again YOU decide

I urge you to read the Assistants/staff section in the EYFS before employing anyone as there is a lot you need to do and they are your responsibility. If Ofsted inspect and you are not following this you will be downgraded in this section and it could affect your grading quite significantly.

[lorettacritchet]

I have read every document which I am aware of for employment and the revised EYFS. I am fully aware of it.

My only desire was to make my numbers allowance clear and had read so many peoples threads saying we can only decide our continious care was a little throwing me hence this thread.


again YOU decide

I urge you to read the Assistants/staff section in the EYFS before employing anyone as there is a lot you need to do and they are your responsibility. If Ofsted inspect and you are not following this you will be downgraded in this section and it could affect your grading quite significantly.

[jumpinjen]

Yeah I knew that for continous care but wasnt sure about the new business side of things.

Everyone is trying to say that if you already have three under five, then you can only have new business if a)one of them leaves or b) you take on an assistant - not needing to ask ofsted isn't a free reign to have as many children as you like - the same rules still apply! It doens't matter if your current parents think it would be fine for you to have a fourth child, if it isn't continuity, or your own baby, you can't do it, garage conversion or not!!

[lorettacritchet]

But you are confusing me!

Ofsteds reply in this question is that CM's can make their decision for new business but they must risk assess etc....i.e. an assistant etc.


Everyone is trying to say that if you already have three under five, then you can only have new business if a)one of them leaves or b) you take on an assistant - not needing to ask ofsted isn't a free reign to have as many children as you like - the same rules still apply! It doens't matter if your current parents think it would be fine for you to have a fourth child, if it isn't continuity, or your own baby, you can't do it, garage conversion or not!!

[Chatterbox Childcare]

The EYFS explains numbers with and without assistants. As long as you stick to this you are fine

We are all saying the same thing on here but in different ways

[Penny1959]

I am going to try one more time - as you clearly are trying so hard to understand this.


If I have understood correctly

You plan to increase floor space by converting your garage

You plan to maintain ratio's by taking on an assistant and therefore the maximum number of children under the EYFS would be 6 under 5 at any one time.

Therefore - if my summary is correct and if you meet all other requirements of the EYFS you could take on new business BECAUSE you have created new places by your actions of increasing more floor space and taking on an assistant.

HOWEVER - you MUST assess this yourself - my advice is only based on my understanding of information provided in your posts

As others have said it is all in the EYFS - and Ofsted's guidance document.

I hope this helps

Penny :)

[lorettacritchet]

Penny, I wasn't trying to sound stupid, I am happy with being responsible for the continuous care issues but i wasn't able to get an answer for NEW business and thought maybe there was a form which would need to go through ofsted..... I was only trying to clarify situations for new business with an assistant...and check things.... as mentioned before I am still not used to the way things are written and at times want clarification as I am not prepared to lose my registration over misinterpreting something.



I am going to try one more time - as you clearly are trying so hard to understand this.


If I have understood correctly

You plan to increase floor space by converting your garage

You plan to maintain ratio's by taking on an assistant and therefore the maximum number of children under the EYFS would be 6 under 5 at any one time.

Therefore - if my summary is correct and if you meet all other requirements of the EYFS you could take on new business BECAUSE you have created new places by your actions of increasing more floor space and taking on an assistant.

HOWEVER - you MUST assess this yourself - my advice is only based on my understanding of information provided in your posts

As others have said it is all in the EYFS - and Ofsted's guidance document.

I hope this helps

Penny :)

[blue bear]

So the short answer is yes.

Make sure you have the correct floor space available

Make sure you cover all the rules about employing an assistant

Make sure you stick to ratios allowed per childminder or assistant and amount of time assistant can be in sole care if first aid trained.

Risk assess parent permissions etc.

[jumpinjen]

But you are confusing me!

Ofsteds reply in this question is that CM's can make their decision for new business but they must risk assess etc....i.e. an assistant etc.

Well you either believe ofsted or us! It sounds to me like you wanted us to say that it is fine to increase your numbers by taking new business, I won't muddy the waters for you any more, Penny's round up is as clear as it can be really - have you got a local DO that can advise you with your plans for your business? sometimes face to face is easier to explain things than written - we all seem to be going round in circles now! I don't think Penny was saying you were stupid by the way - just trying to help you!:)

[christine e]

Ofsted's guidance does point out that you may need planning permission from your local council when employing an assistant and wishing to increase numbers

Working with assistants or other childminders
1.If a childminder works with one or more assistants or in partnership with other childminders, they may be able to increase the number of children they care for to a maximum of six aged under eight for each adult caring for the children. However, some of the factors listed above, such as the space available and any restrictions we impose,, may limit the total number. There are also other factors that might prevent a childminder from doing this, which are not part of their registration as a childminder: for example the local authority’s rules for planning permission to run a business, and any tenancy or leasehold arrangement childminders might hold that prevent them from running a business from home. Childminders may wish to check these and also that their public liability insurance allows them to have extra children before deciding to do so.
2.If a childminder is working with assistants or other childminders, each person must meet the ratios at all times. The EYFS allows childminders to leave a childminding assistant unsupervised with children for up to two hours in a single day with parental permission. This permission must be in writing if the childminder is on the voluntary part of the Childcare Register. If childminders choose to leave children alone with an assistant they cannot leave an assistant with more than six children under eight and only three of these children can be in the early years age group and only one of these may be under one.
3.Although childminders may decide to increase the number of children they can care for when working with an assistant or another childminder, they must always tell us if they intend to work with an assistant, or if the people they work with change. This is because the law requires childminders to tell us about all people who are living or working on the premises where childminding is provided so that we can check to see if they are suitable to be in contact with children.

[bunyip]

Ofsted's guidance does point out that you may need planning permission from your local council when employing an assistant and wishing to increase numbers



Good point. Hope this doesn't confuse this thread even more, but if I were the OP I'd check the planning permission issue first, and decide if it's worth the effort.

There is no single rule on whether you need planning permission. Your local authority planning office will make a case-by-case decision as to whether you need to apply. If you do need to apply, it can be expensive and time-consuming. It can also mean you need to change other things (like your home insurance) as it may involve redefining your home as "business premises".

Ofsted do not 'police' this, but they will take immediate and serious action if they ever find out that you should have planning permission and never got it. In practice, I guess some people ignore it and get away with it. I am NOT recommending anyone do that. It's one of those things that can come back to bite you on the a:censored:e. Like all other malicious complaints, it takes only one disgruntled customer or neighbour with a grudge.