New information from Ofsted re. variations

[justgoodfriends]

http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/factsheet-childcare-numbers-and-ages-of-children-childminders-may-care-for

and Q & A sheet

[miffy]

Thank you - I've been looking out for this since Sarah said it was to be published this week :thumbsup:

Miffy xx

[catlyn]

our local FIS has just posted this on their facebook site

http://www.countydurhamfamilies.info/EDS---Forms/Childminder%20-%20Changes%20to%20the%20Ofsted%20Registration%20an d%20Inspection%20Framework%20from%20Sept%202012.pd f

[loocyloo]

great. thank you x

still not entirely clear though! (unless its my tired brains reading of it!)

[linda2girls]

Thank you, that's great.

Linda.

[sarah707]

great. thank you x

still not entirely clear though! (unless its my tired brains reading of it!)

No it's not is it? :(

A lot of the things I have had clarified aren't mentioned either.

I just don't get it I really don't> they know people are asking questions because I've asked them on behalf of others.

Why couldn't they cover everything and have done with it??? :(

Now there are still going to be inconsistencies and question marks over what to do.

Thank you justgoodfriends for posting the link :D

[blue bear]

Thank you, my situation is in the example and makes me feel better :clapping:

[loocyloo]

No it's not is it? :(

A lot of the things I have had clarified aren't mentioned either.

I just don't get it I really don't> they know people are asking questions because I've asked them on behalf of others.

Why couldn't they cover everything and have done with it??? :(

Now there are still going to be inconsistencies and question marks over what to do.

Thank you justgoodfriends for posting the link :D

so glad it wasn't just me that didn't get it !!! i think i am going to carry on as if i have to apply for a variation for continuity of care and then just award it to myself, keeping a copy of the 'request'!

i was looking sarah, at the list of questions you put in a document about variations and that that is what ofsted will want to make sure is checked/covered, yet, i don't think all those points are on the current variation form? its been a busy day and i'm tired!

[sarah707]

so glad it wasn't just me that didn't get it !!! i think i am going to carry on as if i have to apply for a variation for continuity of care and then just award it to myself, keeping a copy of the 'request'!

i was looking sarah, at the list of questions you put in a document about variations and that that is what ofsted will want to make sure is checked/covered, yet, i don't think all those points are on the current variation form? its been a busy day and i'm tired!

The questions in my document are what I am going to use to base a variation around because they are what I have been told Ofsted will be looking for - by Ofsted.

I can see lots of people getting this one wrong and Ofsted spending a lot more money investigating complaints about over minding than they are saving by not organising variations themselves :(

Plus of course all the unnecessary stress it is causing childminders who are unsure about what they can and cannot do from Sept. :(

At least the guidance makes a few things Penny and I have been banging on about clear -

Variations are for specific children not the norm...

Variations are for continuation of care not just to earn a bit extra money from another child...

Variations must be discussed with parents not just put in place...

Variations must be risk assessed...

Before changing conditions of registration childminders must consider how they are going to meet each child's needs not just take on an extra child because the requirements say they can...

:D

[Mouse]

What worries me are the cms who don't go to groups, don't look at forums, don't keep up to date etc.

I have spoken to 2 cms recently. One had heard "a bit" about the revised EYFS, mainly that she was going to be able to take on extra children without asking Ofsted :eek:

The other said she hadn't even heard that the EYFS was being revised :panic: What are people like that going to think when they get a new certificate through saying they can have 6 under 8s?

I can see this causing so much confusion & Ofsted don't seem to be helping much.

[Penny1959]

The questions in my document are what I am going to use to base a variation around because they are what I have been told Ofsted will be looking for - by Ofsted.

I can see lots of people getting this one wrong and Ofsted spending a lot more money investigating complaints about over minding than they are saving by not organising variations themselves :(

Plus of course all the unnecessary stress it is causing childminders who are unsure about what they can and cannot do from Sept. :(

At least the guidance makes a few things Penny and I have been banging on about clear -

Variations are for specific children not the norm...

Variations are for continuation of care not just to earn a bit extra money from another child...

Variations must be discussed with parents not just put in place...

Variations must be risk assessed...

Before changing conditions of registration childminders must consider how they are going to meet each child's needs not just take on an extra child because the requirements say they can...

:D

I share Sarah's concerns about this document - we were both hoping that it would make it very clear - but it does not.

As Sarah says we have both been going on and on about the points Sarah has confirmed above - but people still can not get their heads around it all - and this guidance will be of no help at all for lots of people.

My biggest concern is that Ofsted have NO IDEA about childminding numbers and normal growth in population - and they should considering how many of us constantly need the current variation.

People will abuse the 'rules' but other really honest people - like me - will find that it is not the exception but the norm.

By this I am referring to population growth. You start out with 4 mindees from three different families - all part time (as is the norm these days) - one gets pregnant want space for baby, two months later another gets pregnant - its twins - then one of the part timers has to change shifts, then another separates from her partner who up to now has had the child on his days off - and so on and so on. For goodness sake Ofsted - this is how it is!!

And therefore before we know it most of us will have granted ourselves an exception or two or three or more - and all perfectly legally.

As I have said many times I will be having 5 on two days a week and 4 on the other 3 days - and I know I can meet every child's needs - the parents have already signed the required forms as will be doing this from 3rd September BUT no way do I want to do this long term - I would run myself into the ground and then would not be meeting the children's needs.

Oh boy I wish someone in government would think things through and ask those that actually understand these things.

Penny :)

[Bluebell]

sorry - probably being stupid - is it a fact sheet AND a Question and Answer sheet? I can only see the fact sheet - just wondered if I was missing something?

Also the clarifications/examples from Ofsted in your sheet Sarah - are they still correct and could we use them to support our paperwork when we evaluate and risk assess for vaariations?

Thanks so much for all your work on this and sharing it with us

[4365]

"We will normally interpret an exceptional circumstance as relating to the continuity of care for children and/or where sibling children are not babies. "

This bit confuses me. Can anyone explain? If a child you already care for has a baby sibling who is due to start can you give yourself a variation or not?

Thanks

[jumping j]

I've been keeping a lot of the CM's at a local group up to date with things, they attend groups but the information isn't always recieved, they knew about the revised EYFS but not about the implications and changes.

Already one of them has mentioned taking on a new contract because that will be ok in September, I've explained it's not to be used for new contracts but continuation of care, but how are people going to prove whether it's continuation of care or new business.

I'll be having 5 under 5 2 days a week between November and Easter, (siblings of currently minded children who will go to nursery in March) I'm actually dreading it, although I know I can provide the care for the children I'm going to be busy and I'm thinking about getting someone in to help just for those 2 days, more for my sanity than anything else. But I know there will be CM's who don't think about it and just take on extra children

[sarah707]

sorry - probably being stupid - is it a fact sheet AND a Question and Answer sheet? I can only see the fact sheet - just wondered if I was missing something?

There is a download on the post and then a website link for the document....??? That's what I see...

Also the clarifications/examples from Ofsted in your sheet Sarah - are they still correct and could we use them to support our paperwork when we evaluate and risk assess for vaariations?

Thanks so much for all your work on this and sharing it with us

My document has been written after consultation with someone in Ofsted who knows what she is talking about.

I have kept all my original notes and her replies etc and those are what I intend to use because I will be changing the conditions of my registration from Sept for continuity of care.

The Ofsted factsheet doesn't say anything new - it just clarifies some of the areas people were asking about.

The problem with it, from my viewpoint, is that it does not answer everything Ofsted know people are asking which I find very odd.

But having thought about it overnight I suppose they can only follow the EYFS (which was written by DofE) just like us.

Hth :D

[sarah707]

"We will normally interpret an exceptional circumstance as relating to the continuity of care for children and/or where sibling children are not babies. "

This bit confuses me. Can anyone explain? If a child you already care for has a baby sibling who is due to start can you give yourself a variation or not?

Thanks

You can only change the conditions of your registration certificate in exceptional circumstances.

What is an 'exceptional circumstance?'

An exceptional circumstance might be...

Providing continuity of care - stated in EYFS

Sibling babies - babies who are siblings (brothers or sisters) of older children already in the provision - as stated in the EYFS

Sibling babies - twins if they are the only babies under 1 for example - as stated in the EYFS

Where sibling children are not babies - so if you were asked to change hours to accommodate 2 children who are siblings (brothers or sisters) but they do not necessarily need to be babies. It might mean changing your toddler numbers to 4 under 5 for a short time to meet their needs.

Hth :D

[Bluebell]

This would presumabley apply to a baby/toddler you take care of and then the mum wants you to look after an older child that goes to pre-school during term time and needs holiday care - so they are still in EY group but sibling care? Would that be an example?

Thanks for your reply Sarah - it is odd that they could have had more information but I think like you say it is clear from the document that the rules for variations haven't changed so much - but we are to judge for ourselves if we can do it.

[PixiePetal]

hoping I have this right ?

I have mon and tues, siblings aged 1 & 3. Wed and Thurs another set of siblings 1 & 3.

If one set needs another day I could do it under continuity of care (rather than saying I could only have one of them!)

however when this situation finishes (leave or go over 5yrs old) I cannot automatically take on extra children and go over my 3 under 5's as this would not be those circumstances.

Also need to risk assess and be ok with both sets of parents and able to show I am able and have equipment - is that right??

[sarah707]

This would presumabley apply to a baby/toddler you take care of and then the mum wants you to look after an older child that goes to pre-school during term time and needs holiday care - so they are still in EY group but sibling care? Would that be an example?

My understanding of the requirements is that yes, this is an example of how it might happen.

It isn't necessarily babies that the continuity of care applies to - it might be older children as well.

Thanks for your reply Sarah - it is odd that they could have had more information but I think like you say it is clear from the document that the rules for variations haven't changed so much - but we are to judge for ourselves if we can do it.


Hope that helps :D

[4365]

thank you Sarah and Bluelion, I get that bit now, the wording confused me in the document but you've made it clear.

[Katiekoo]

You can only change the conditions of your registration certificate in exceptional circumstances.

What is an 'exceptional circumstance?'

An exceptional circumstance might be...

Providing continuity of care - stated in EYFS

Sibling babies - babies who are siblings (brothers or sisters) of older children already in the provision - as stated in the EYFS

Sibling babies - twins if they are the only babies under 1 for example - as stated in the EYFS

Where sibling children are not babies - so if you were asked to change hours to accommodate 2 children who are siblings (brothers or sisters) but they do not necessarily need to be babies. It might mean changing your toddler numbers to 4 under 5 for a short time to meet their needs.

Hth :D

I have never been clear on variations with the current system, now this new system seems like a new minefield!

Not sure if this has already been asked, but;
You know when your Ey places are filled by different babies on different days, and one then needs an extra day (just occasionally, like once every three months, say) now I believe you could apply for a one day variation or say "no sorry I'm full that day". Would we now be able to grant this for ourselves???

I have an arrangement like this starting later in the year, and one mum has already said there may be very occasional days she may need that would take me over my numbers. I don't know what to say to her! :blush:

[sarah707]

I have never been clear on variations with the current system, now this new system seems like a new minefield!

Not sure if this has already been asked, but;
You know when your Ey places are filled by different babies on different days, and one then needs an extra day (just occasionally, like once every three months, say) now I believe you could apply for a one day variation or say "no sorry I'm full that day". Would we now be able to grant this for ourselves???

I have an arrangement like this starting later in the year, and one mum has already said there may be very occasional days she may need that would take me over my numbers. I don't know what to say to her! :blush:

It depends on how it is taking you over your numbers.

If you need flexibility with under 5s then you can change the conditions of your registration by writing your risk assessment and checking parents are happy that you can meet the needs of all the children.

If you mean going over the 6 under 8 rule - then no, there is no flexibility to do that ever.

Hth :D

[bunyip]

It might help if Ofsted defined what they mean by "continuity of care" rather than assuming everybody understands and follows whatever they think they mean.

Come to think of it, the entire childcare sector needs to produce a whole dictionary of such terms.

[Katiekoo]

It depends on how it is taking you over your numbers.

If you need flexibility with under 5s then you can change the conditions of your registration by writing your risk assessment and checking parents are happy that you can meet the needs of all the children.

If you mean going over the 6 under 8 rule - then no, there is no flexibility to do that ever.

Hth :D

Thanks Sarah, yes it is for flexibility with more than 3 under 5's very occasionally, I don't have any over 5's at the moment.

[tammys-tots]

hi, they have stated if you look after children with additional needs you may need to lower your numbers of children you care for, this is going to stop cm caring for children with additional needs, i have looked after a few children with additional needs i have in the past received funding but i dont no if we would still get this! i wouldnt turn away a child that has a disability, but i may loose out finacially, my daughter was turned away from college last week for being disabled and was discriminated against. I think cm are better to look after children who have a disability, i think that you still would be able to meet the needs of the child sticking to your normal ratios.

[sarah707]

hi, they have stated if you look after children with additional needs you may need to lower your numbers of children you care for, this is going to stop cm caring for children with additional needs, i have looked after a few children with additional needs i have in the past received funding but i dont no if we would still get this! i wouldnt turn away a child that has a disability, but i may loose out finacially, my daughter was turned away from college last week for being disabled and was discriminated against. I think cm are better to look after children who have a disability, i think that you still would be able to meet the needs of the child sticking to your normal ratios.

I think it would be up to the individual to decide if they could manage a child with additional needs as well as all the other children... but yes you are right it might put people off...

Especially as the Equality Act 2010 makes it illegal to ask for extra money from parents to care for a disabled child or to contribute towards any adjustments that might need to be made to the house or garden etc to accommodate the child's needs.

Good point tammys-tots and one I am sure has not been fully considered by the powers that be :rolleyes:

[Bluebell]

I was just about to ask that Sarah but you have answered my question! I had wondered if you could charge more in relation to possible extra work involved, expense incurred or possible loss of inome if lower numbers but if it is illegal then I guess it is certainly a no!
I wondered because I would have thought that possibly the parents would get extra financial support for their children and that maybe that included childcare. (sorry for being so ignorant)
If the parents are not expected to pay more - which actually is a good thing because that is fair - is there any funding available from local authority - I know when I worked at a pre-school we had extra funding so that the extra needs could be accomodated - shouldn't the same apply to a childminders setting?

[Carol M]

I currently have on my cert that I can care for two babies within my registered numbers ( not for specific named children).
I have an enquirey for a 8mth old, already have a 11mth old on same days as potential new one, I have the space , for start date possibly in September. There may be an overlap of a few weeks, untill older mindee turns 1, so current cert says no problem but come September will I not be able to do this as it's "new business" and all conditions will be removed from cert.
Can I go ahead with new contract by means of granting myself the variation for two under one, that I currently have agreed by Ofsted?
Still bloomin confusing :confused:
Carol xx

[sarah707]

I currently have on my cert that I can care for two babies within my registered numbers ( not for specific named children).
I have an enquirey for a 8mth old, already have a 11mth old on same days as potential new one, I have the space , for start date possibly in September. There may be an overlap of a few weeks, untill older mindee turns 1, so current cert says no problem but come September will I not be able to do this as it's "new business" and all conditions will be removed from cert.
Can I go ahead with new contract by means of granting myself the variation for two under one, that I currently have agreed by Ofsted?
Still bloomin confusing :confused:
Carol xx

This one has been answered by Ofsted Carol so I can reply confidently. If you want to see the actual wording pm me.

Because there is flexibility built into the EYFS from Sept to care for 2 under 1 for continuity of care / sibling babies you will be able to vary the conditions of your registration to accommodate both families IF you have your risk assessment in place and parents are happy.

However, there is nothing in the EYFS or the info I have been given about new business...

Hth :D

[Carol M]

Thank you Sarah for your reply.
I understand that I can grant myself a variation to accommodate 2 babies should it be for continuity of care or for a sibling , but in this case it would be " new business" as the 8mth old will start after 1st September 2012.
They are coming for a second visit this afternoon.
Carol xx

[tammys-tots]

I was just about to ask that Sarah but you have answered my question! I had wondered if you could charge more in relation to possible extra work involved, expense incurred or possible loss of inome if lower numbers but if it is illegal then I guess it is certainly a no!
I wondered because I would have thought that possibly the parents would get extra financial support for their children and that maybe that included childcare. (sorry for being so ignorant)
If the parents are not expected to pay more - which actually is a good thing because that is fair - is there any funding available from local authority - I know when I worked at a pre-school we had extra funding so that the extra needs could be accomodated - shouldn't the same apply to a childminders setting?

Hi, i did have some funding (early intervention) just over a year ago, i got paid the same rate i usualy charge for not taking on anymore children. I wouldnt ask parents to pay extra, they would get DLA but it wouldnt be for childcare. I always make sure that i am able to meet all of the childrens needs before taking any child on