Sept 2012 -Variation

[lorettacritchet]

Does anyone know how the variation to your kids numbers process will work from sept 2012. Not sure if on write page.

[Penny1959]

Everyone will (eventually) get new certificates that do not state numbers of children or have any conditions of registration.

Variations will no longer need to be applied for. We will all have to maintain the ratio's within the EYFS and if we need to increase our numbers (for continuity of care or siblings) we will have to to risk assess if we can meet all childrens needs and consult with all parents using oure service.

We will not be able to increase our numbers for new business

We will have to maintain the 'no more than 6 children under 8yrs of age at any one time' rule

Hope that helps

Penny :)

[miffy]

What Penny says is our understanding so far from Ofsted and DfE but we are waiting for Ofsted to produce their guidance which will no doubt make everything crystal clear! :D

Miffy xx

[Penny1959]

What Penny says is our understanding so far from Ofsted and DfE but we are waiting for Ofsted to produce their guidance which will no doubt make everything crystal clear! :D

Miffy xx

Ofsted have had their LA briefings this last couple of weeks and this is still what they are saying.

Although iof course the can still change their minds.


Penny :)

[lorettacritchet]

Sorry, we won't be able to increase numbers for new business? I am only allowed 4 children in total, 1 under 1, total of 2 in eyfs and 2 between 5-8 range.....is there a specific risk assessment we need to do? I was also going to employ a childminding assistant and have her complete training as a childminder so I can increase my numbers, i assume this isn't going to happen now...

Also are you effectively saying, we decide our own numbers as long as within 6 children rule?



Everyone will (eventually) get new certificates that do not state numbers of children or have any conditions of registration.

Variations will no longer need to be applied for. We will all have to maintain the ratio's within the EYFS and if we need to increase our numbers (for continuity of care or siblings) we will have to to risk assess if we can meet all childrens needs and consult with all parents using oure service.

We will not be able to increase our numbers for new business

We will have to maintain the 'no more than 6 children under 8yrs of age at any one time' rule

Hope that helps

Penny :)

[sarah707]

Have a read through this document -

http://childmindinghelp.co.uk/freeresources/Free%20downloads/variations2012.html

It has been written after taking guidance from Ofsted so you can be sure it was the correct advice on the day it was written.

hth :D

[Penny1959]

Sorry, we won't be able to increase numbers for new business? I am only allowed 4 children in total, 1 under 1, total of 2 in eyfs and 2 between 5-8 range.....is there a specific risk assessment we need to do? I was also going to employ a childminding assistant and have her complete training as a childminder so I can increase my numbers, i assume this isn't going to happen now...

Also are you effectively saying, we decide our own numbers as long as within 6 children rule?

Taking on an assistant is different - as is a co minder (as I am sure it says it Sarah's document)

We don't decide our own numbers - the EYFS does that - and basically as now with 3 under 5, not more than 1 under 1 etc. What we decide is if we take on a sibling baby, or twins when only have one space, or provide an extra day because mum has to work extra - etc etc - and all the other reasons we used to apply for variations for. It gives us greater flexibilty to meet parents needs without having to wait for Ofsted to respond.

This is all explained in Sarah's document

Penny :)

[miffy]

Ofsted have had their LA briefings this last couple of weeks and this is still what they are saying.

Although iof course the can still change their minds.


Penny :)

I wasn't disagreeing with or doubting you, Penny. I just like to have things in black and white!

Miffy xx

[lorettacritchet]

Yeah have previously read Sarah's document but am still confused! Took me a long tieme to understand the whole 4/5 year in full education condition on the certificate!!!
So let's just say i take an assistant on or a co-minder, then what do I do to try and get more kids?



Taking on an assistant is different - as is a co minder (as I am sure it says it Sarah's document)

We don't decide our own numbers - the EYFS does that - and basically as now with 3 under 5, not more than 1 under 1 etc. What we decide is if we take on a sibling baby, or twins when only have one space, or provide an extra day because mum has to work extra - etc etc - and all the other reasons we used to apply for variations for. It gives us greater flexibilty to meet parents needs without having to wait for Ofsted to respond.

This is all explained in Sarah's document

Penny :)

[sophie1977]

my husband has recently registered and the inspector said that we were allowed only 8 children between us??? I thought it would be 6 each. She said it is, if working separately, but 8 when working together?? otherwise we'll need planning from council and it would be considered as a nursery, not childminding.

Has anybody else heard of this, or am i a bit dumb and not got a clue??:panic:

[lorettacritchet]

That doesn't sound right? but i am not always right! A childminder friend has 6 kids for her 6 kids for her childminder and has never had to register as a nursery...

my husband has recently registered and the inspector said that we were allowed only 8 children between us??? I thought it would be 6 each. She said it is, if working separately, but 8 when working together?? otherwise we'll need planning from council and it would be considered as a nursery, not childminding.

Has anybody else heard of this, or am i a bit dumb and not got a clue??:panic:

[lorettacritchet]

Also let's say for example come september, you have been looking after a child for 3 days a week then the child's parents want the child to be 5 days a week on a perm basis, how do i handle that? especially if two of the days of having the child would mean being over the total children allowed (one would be 3, two would be 1) hope explained that okay.....so without applying for a variation, what would i do?

[Penny1959]

Yeah have previously read Sarah's document but am still confused! Took me a long tieme to understand the whole 4/5 year in full education condition on the certificate!!!
So let's just say i take an assistant on or a co-minder, then what do I do to try and get more kids?

You have to tell Ofsted and they record your assistant or co minders name. I am not ure if they will issue a new certificate as I have not asked that question.


As Miffy says we are waiting for Ofsted guidance document

Penny :)

[Penny1959]

I wasn't disagreeing with or doubting you, Penny. I just like to have things in black and white!

Miffy xx

Had not taken it that way Miffy - was just providing some up to date info as had spoken to LA senior person and senior peron from PLA on Tuesday evening and both confirmed that Ofsted still saying same.


I like you also like to make sure I have facts right.:thumbsup:


Penny :)

[Penny1959]

my husband has recently registered and the inspector said that we were allowed only 8 children between us??? I thought it would be 6 each. She said it is, if working separately, but 8 when working together?? otherwise we'll need planning from council and it would be considered as a nursery, not childminding.

Has anybody else heard of this, or am i a bit dumb and not got a clue??:panic:

Local planning is often required if have more than 6 minded children. However usually Ofsted just tell you that must comply with local planning and do not restrict your numbers themselves because of planning.

With the new EYFS - it is very clear that we have to comply with local planning rules - and should find out what our local restrictions are - especially as different planning teams have different 'rules'

Penny :)

[Penny1959]

Also let's say for example come september, you have been looking after a child for 3 days a week then the child's parents want the child to be 5 days a week on a perm basis, how do i handle that? especially if two of the days of having the child would mean being over the total children allowed (one would be 3, two would be 1) hope explained that okay.....so without applying for a variation, what would i do?

Ok this is based on my current understanding - which is up to date -but may change.

In the scenario you have described you could have the other child the extra days - provided

You don't exceed 6 children under 8 (including your own)

You do a risk assessment to ensure you can keep all the children safe

You assess if you can meet all the childrn's needs

You speak to all the parents who use your childminding service and they all agree that ok with it

I plan to keep written records of my assessment, my information to parents - and parents response. That way if an inspector asks - I will have evidence of my assessment etc.

Penny :)

[onceinabluemoon]

Everyone will (eventually) get new certificates that do not state numbers of children or have any conditions of registration.

Variations will no longer need to be applied for. We will all have to maintain the ratio's within the EYFS and if we need to increase our numbers (for continuity of care or siblings) we will have to to risk assess if we can meet all childrens needs and consult with all parents using oure service.

We will not be able to increase our numbers for new business

We will have to maintain the 'no more than 6 children under 8yrs of age at any one time' rule

Hope that helps

Penny :)

This is interesting, I was told by ofsted on Thursday that there is currently no 'continuation of care' variation process within the new eyfs. And that we would not be able to write our own variations for that unless it was changed. The young man i spoke to was unsure so went off to check with his supervisor...

Sounds like a typical tell one of us one thing and another something else...

[sarah707]

This is interesting, I was told by ofsted on Thursday that there is currently no 'continuation of care' variation process within the new eyfs. And that we would not be able to write our own variations for that unless it was changed. The young man i spoke to was unsure so went off to check with his supervisor...

Sounds like a typical tell one of us one thing and another something else...

He is right - there is currently nothing about continuity of care in the revised EYFS.

However my info has come directly from Ofsted (higher up than the call centre) and there will be more guidance coming from Ofsted so we are being asked to wait a little while.

I just wish they'd hurry up I am hearing so much rubbish spouted about what will and won't be ok and it's very worrying :(

[onceinabluemoon]

He is right - there is currently nothing about continuity of care in the revised EYFS.

However my info has come directly from Ofsted (higher up than the call centre) and there will be more guidance coming from Ofsted so we are being asked to wait a little while.

I just wish they'd hurry up I am hearing so much rubbish spouted about what will and won't be ok and it's very worrying :(

me too, I hate this not knowing business and parents keep asking me stuff about September to which I have to keep saying that I don't know. Makes me look so unprofessional. :(

[Penny1959]

My information like Sarah's has also come from higher up in Ofsted - and like Sarah I have it in writing. (The response from Ofsted is on here somewhere - I will look for it at post the link later)

I also have been told by senior staff at PLA and my LA (who have met with Ofsted in last two weeks that this is still the case.

If you read the EYFS - last line od 3.40 - that is what Ofsted keep reffering back to.

However as we keep stressing Ofsted can still change their mind - and ebven once the guidance is out - can still issue updated information.


Penny :)

[Penny1959]

This is the link to the response I had from Ofsted

http://childmindinghelp.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=103009


Penny :)

[C&A Childcare]

my husband has recently registered and the inspector said that we were allowed only 8 children between us??? I thought it would be 6 each. She said it is, if working separately, but 8 when working together?? otherwise we'll need planning from council and it would be considered as a nursery, not childminding.

Has anybody else heard of this, or am i a bit dumb and not got a clue??:panic:

I work alongside my mum and we are allowed 9 under 8s when working together. Ofsted said this was because of space although we live in a decent sized house but I've not heard about planning from council so it may vary depending on what area you live in.

[rickysmiths]

I work alongside my mum and we are allowed 9 under 8s when working together. Ofsted said this was because of space although we live in a decent sized house but I've not heard about planning from council so it may vary depending on what area you live in.

The need for Planning Permission varies depending on where you are. However this is nothing to do with Ofsted and you need to ring your Local Planning Dept at your Council to find out what the rules are in your area. Just because you may need planning permission to have more than 6 children does not mean if you are working together that you suddenly have to become a nursery not a childminder. If you look at the Ofsted web site there is information.

The numbers between you is more likely set because of the space you have and they have deemed that there is only room for 8 plus 2 adults.

It is never a sure thing that you can double your numbers because there are 2 of you. That is one reason i have never taken on an Assistant because I would be able to take on enough more children to make it worth paying her.

[Bluebell]

Ok this is based on my current understanding - which is up to date -but may change.

In the scenario you have described you could have the other child the extra days - provided

You don't exceed 6 children under 8 (including your own)

You do a risk assessment to ensure you can keep all the children safe

You assess if you can meet all the childrn's needs

You speak to all the parents who use your childminding service and they all agree that ok with it

I plan to keep written records of my assessment, my information to parents - and parents response. That way if an inspector asks - I will have evidence of my assessment etc.

Penny :)

I would like to write a blanket permission slip to parents explaining about the new rules re variations, that way if a child wants an extra day one week I won't have to get permission slips every time. I am making it very clear that although the decision is down to me I will be following the strict guidelines and never go above 6 children under 8. In effect because I have 2 children I will never go above 4 in the EY group. (Except when my son starts P-T school because in 1 of the scenarios it says its ok to take on new business until such time that he is in full time school and is a matter of 3 weeks)
I am also stating that his means I may not be able to accommodate all requests from parents.

I would love to have someone look at this for me and give some advice but also want to know if a blanket permission form like this making parents aware that I will be working above my numbers is sufficient?

In the past I have mentioned it to them in passing and checked ok - ie next week I've got an extra one - I have the variation from Ofsted for 1 afternoon. But I know half the time they don't care and probably won't recall if asked! They seem to think its all a bit OTT.

[Bluebell]

sorry to repost the same question - do you think a blanket permission would be ok?

or do you need to refer to parents each time - I would prob let them know as well each time but if I have a blanket permission slip, letting them know about numbers, variations, changes from September and getting them to sign it would save faffing each time.

[sarah707]

sorry to repost the same question - do you think a blanket permission would be ok?

or do you need to refer to parents each time - I would prob let them know as well each time but if I have a blanket permission slip, letting them know about numbers, variations, changes from September and getting them to sign it would save faffing each time.

Sorry didn't see the question! It's often best to post a new thread - old ones don't always get read again!! :thumbsup:

My understanding is that the premission should be specific to the child because no 2 variations will be the same and they will all affect the dynamic of the provision in different ways!

As the variation is child specific the parents' understanding of why you are changing your numbers will need to be discussed each time.

However please note - that is my understanding of the requirements - I don't have that in writing from Ofsted.

Hth :D

[Bluebell]

Thanks Sarah - would you mind looking at it for me?

I still intend to inform/discuss with parents each time and I am making very clear on sheet that I will be assessing each situation on own merits - but I don't want to put in writing each time or get them to sign a consent form each time either as I think is too much faff / slightly excessive (unless of course this is specifically required by new regs - which as you say they will confirm soon.) But at the moment I am making clear how variations work and that from September although I will be able to make own decisions it will be based on the strict rules.

This is what I've written - I've blanked out names.

IMPORTANT NEWS

This regards the number of children I can work with under EYFS regulations. Please read carefully and sign the attached slip.
Ofsted registration numbers are strictly 6 under 8 year olds at all times. As I have 2 children of my own this means 4 under 8's. Guidelines are that of these 6 no more than 3 should be in the Early Years group and of these only 1 should be under 1.
Variations from Ofsted enables care beyond the recommended numbers. This is beneficial if shifts change, for sibling care or for emergency circumstances.
From September Child Minders can decide for themselves to offer care beyond the guidelines. However, strict rules must be adhered to and risk assesments completed. The safety and well-being of all children is the priority.
I may be caring for 4 children in the early years groups on some days due to continuity of care and siblings. If this is on a day when your child comes here it will be discussed with you before hand.
In addition I have registered my husband, --------- as my 'assistant'. While working with an assistant I can also increase my numbers. ------ is fully CRB checked and will not be responsible for your child. He will be responsible for ------ and ------. As ------works full time this may not affect your child on the day they come. I will remain responsible for your child at all times and as per the contract and my safeguarding policy your child will never be alone with any other person than myself.
If you would like any more information or want to discuss anything with me please ask.
.................................................. .................................................. ....

I am aware that ----- can increase her numbers to provide continuity of care, sibling care or emergency care.
I understand this will not be for new business but for existing families.
I understand that ------- will never look after more than 6 under 8's and that this includes her own children(except when working with an assistant, --------)
I understand that ------- will consider the safety and well-being of all children in her care and may not be able to accomodate all requests for extra care.


SIGNED............................................ .....PRINT NAME.............................................. ..(parent)

[sarah707]

bluelion - I would mention something about variations only being available in exceptional circumstances of you might be opening the floodgates for parents to be asking you to change their days etc...

It looks fine to me BUT can I please suggest you wait until the Ofsted guidance just to make sure all the info they gave me is still in the document - they have been known to change their minds about things as we all know!!

Hth :D

[Bluebell]

yes you are right - of course! I thought be mentioning how strict the rules are and by not being able to accommodate all requests that was what I meant but clearly stating 'exceptional circumstances' is a key thing I have missed out!! Doh!

And I will wait - do you know when it is being officially published because I have new children starting in September that have been booked in for months and I have now had requests from existing children to extend their hours so I need to be sure I can do it!

I've got my training on new EYFS in a couple of weeks but everything still seems so vague to everyone! I hope it will clear things up and not confuse things more...:rolleyes:

Thank you for taking the time to answer x

[sarah707]

No we don't have a timescale for receiving the guidance document yet... I wish they would hurry up! :D

[miffy]

No we don't have a timescale for receiving the guidance document yet... I wish they would hurry up! :D

Don't we all :rolleyes:

Ofsted will soon start receiving requests for variations to start in September so it would make sense if they could refer applicants to their guidance as well as the Eyfs - I can see this being lots more work for Ofstd in the short term if they don't get their act together pdq!

Miffy xx