Response from Ofsted re variations etc under revised EYFS

[Penny1959]

Here we go then - the answers to my (our) questions

Dear Penny



Thank you for sharing the response your colleague received from DfE with me. DfE colleagues have now agreed with us that their intention is for childminders to have the same sort of flexibility as at present. Our intention is to reissue our current guidance on numbers and ages of children with the September update at end June. Our position remains that childminders may decide for themselves the circumstances in which they may have more than three children under five providing they do not exceed more than six children under eight. However the relevant parts of the new EYFS (paragraphs 3.29 final sentence and paragraphs 3.39 – 3.41) make it clear that such circumstances are not the norm and are exceptions. Childminders cannot routinely care for more children in the early years age group but must review each time they do so against the other requirements of the EYFS and whether it is in the best interests of the child.



So in relation to your scenarios:



I currently have a variation in place for 4 under 5's - (the 4th place being shared by two different children that were named in the variation request). My understanding from the reply received by my colleague from the DfE is that I can continue to care for these two children once the revised EYFS is implemented in Sept 12.



Yes you may until either one of your children leave or one of the children named in the variation is no longer in the EYFS or in full time education.

However one of the parents of those children has asked to extend her days which would mean that I would have 5 under 5 on 2 days a week and 4 under 5's on the other 3 days (and would be maintaining the 6 under 8 rule) as I read the DfE response this would be allowed. What is Ofsted's view please?



Yes you may do this but as above only until one of your children leave or one of the children named in the variation is no longer in the EYFS or in full time education.. However you will need to assess whether you can meet the varying needs of all the children you care for; have enough space to do this; are covered by your insurance; meet all other requirements from planning departments and so on as well as all other EYFS requirements. We think each person considering whether to take on additional children needs to think about:

nthe length of time they are providing care

nwhether their furniture and equipment is sufficient

nhow they will deliver the learning and development requirements of the Early Years Foundation Stage to all the children they care for and help them make the best possible progress

ninforming all parents so that they understand what this might mean for their own child’s care

nhow they organise their day so that all children get enough of their time.

A childminder cares for 3 under 5's (all single children) 2 of the mums become pregnant with a few months both want the childminder to care for the babies once they return to work. My understanding is if just one sibling that - this is allowed. But for the two siblings? It reads that again if keeping to the 6 under 8 - it would be allowed? Ofsted view please? And just to muddy the water! what if one sibling turned out to be twins?

The answer to this is really the same as that above. By relying on the more general statement in 3.29 childminders may care for more babies even when such babies are not siblings, or are twins and so on. But the key thing to remember is that the numbers of children – three in the early years age group and normally only one under one are set for a reason. This is generally accepted as the maximum childminders may have and any other arrangements must be exceptional, in the best needs of the children for whom it applied, not adversely affect any other children being cared for and childminders must be able to demonstrate how they have assessed this should any inspector ask.


I have copied in Mandy so she can disseminate to other childminders in Poole.



Best wishes



Liz


Liz Elsom, Divisional Manager Early Years and Childcare

[teacake2]

Very interesting, I can see a lot of minders taking on more children than they can really care for in the best way of all the children and when they are asked they can now just say oh it is fine I am working to the guidelines. Still some of them near to me do that now and I know for a fact that they haven't had a variation from OFSTED:(:(:(
Teacake2

[Penny1959]

Very interesting, I can see a lot of minders taking on more children than they can really care for in the best way of all the children and when they are asked they can now just say oh it is fine I am working to the guidelines. Still some of them near to me do that now and I know for a fact that they haven't had a variation from OFSTED:(:(:(
Teacake2

It does worry me that people will 'stretch' the truth and claim 'new business' is continuity of care. Some will not carry out any risk assessment and professional judgement will not be evident.

For those who do know their personal capabilities and limits it will be a good thing and will help parents stay with their choosen childminder.


Thing that has caused me worry is - ET suggested this - and it actually is already going to be law under the EYFS 12

Penny :)

[AgentTink]

I am still confused. Why can no one give a straight answer. I do not want to risk getting it wrong and then ofsted getting called on me, and when they come to investigate they say that I am working above my numbers :(:panic:

[Penny1959]

I am still confused. Why can no one give a straight answer. I do not want to risk getting it wrong and then ofsted getting called on me, and when they come to investigate they say that I am working above my numbers :(:panic:

Trying to put it in plain English

Normally ratio's remain as they are now 3 under 5 of which 1 under 12m

However instead of applying to Ofsted for a variation for continuity of care (parent wanting more hours, wanting new baby to be cared for with older sibling) you must assess yourself if you are able to do this - and consider all the things that Ofsted used to make their decision on.

In other words you put in writting why and how you will be able to meet all the children's needs - this is so if an inspector wishes to checkyour professional decission - you have something to show them.

At NO time may you exceed 6 chuildren under the age of 8.

Hope that helps - if still not clear - ask for further clarification

Penny :)

[loocyloo]

i think the easiest way will be to keep a copy of the current variation form, and fill that in each time, and then you have 'on file', the how/why/wherefore for what you are doing, should anyone ever ask!

[The Juggler]

my understanding from reading this Penny is that we may only occasionally or in an emergency care for more than 3 under 5's and that we should not routinely or on a day to day basis do so.

I think the safest thing is to always check first other than for a quick emergency variation for a few hours.

[bandlady]

At long last if the above response is correct this means that I can now run my business as I want. Not just having the flexibility to care for more children as and when it is needed but to cut down on the amount of time and effort it has taken over the years to get variations through in time for me to run my business.

I for one welcome the fact that I can make my own decisions on how many children I can care for and that I will be accountable for any decisions I make. I work very closely with the local pre-school taking and collecting children before and after their pre-school sessions sometimes only caring for these children for an hour a day but due to restraints on numbers it has been very difficult to mind other children around this service now I can do my preschool runs and care for younger children throughout the day without always ensuring that I have an assistant with me.

Whilst some of you will think that some childminders will abuse this system you must also consider the ones who by having this flexibility will mean that for some of us we can provide for more parents particularly those who only need a few hours a day/week who many minders will turn away because it is not viable for them to do so few hours whilst for some of us it would be beneficial to take this business on. During my many years of minding i have had very few 'full timers' mainly running my business on a number of part timers and have personally lost out on a lot of business over the years by not being able to fit another child in due to a few hours overlap now hopefully I will be able to offer a more flexible service.

Many of you like me must see 'unregistered childminders' at school/preschools every day, hopefully by giving registered childminders more flexibility some of us can offer registered childcare to a larger number of children and stop some of the unregistered childcare that is going on all over the country. I for one would put a stop to the 'two hour' rule that allows unregistered childcare to take place. This type of childcare totally undermines the rules and regulations
that we have to undertake and also there is a greater risk to the child if first aid and safeguarding is not compulsory and obviously these 'minders' have no insurance whatsoever should an accident happen when caring for these children.

Denise

[sillysausage]

Thank you Penny. For me this means I won't need to apply for a variation for the baby sibling of an existing mindee is due to start in September.
At the moment I have 4 under 5's with a variation in place because 3 of those 4 have shift workers as parents so sometimes their sessions overlap . One of my existing children moves up to full time school and baby sibling is due to start. Again I will only have 4 children a few hours per week, with 2 on fixed hours and 2 on shifts.
I know I can cope and have the equipment and experience to look after and provide appropriate care and learning experiences for 4 LO's but it is bl**dy hard work and I wouldn't want to be doing it for more than a few hours each week. I personally would feel happier if you still had to complete the variation, where someone outside of your setting has to make the same judgements as to your suitability.
I know a few childminders who will abuse the new proposals and use it to take on more children when they can't cope properly with the ones they've got currently.

[Mouse]

Thank you Penny.

As I see it the rules are the same as now, except you won't need to apply for a variation to Ofsted and will make the decision yourself on whether or not your numbers fit the criteria.

That's good news for me as I am often applying for variations. I always get them as I know they fit the rules, so it would save me the job of having to do an actual variation, especially when it's only for the odd day.

I do think it could be open to abuse, but there are so many childminders who bend the rules already that the current system isn't ideal either.

[Penny1959]

my understanding from reading this Penny is that we may only occasionally or in an emergency care for more than 3 under 5's and that we should not routinely or on a day to day basis do so.

I think the safest thing is to always check first other than for a quick emergency variation for a few hours.

From Sept 12 Ofsted will most likely just go over what it says in the revised EYFS (which is more or less what LIZ Elsom has done)

However from Liz's response it is not just for occassional or emergency situations (although in those situations it will now be much easier as can decide ourselves)

In my own particular situation - it is long term - the children mentioned are 2yr 4m and 3 yr 2 m - and for 4 three days a week, 5 two days a week - so potentilly for a whole year until the oldest goes to school in Sept 13.

I do need to point out that these children have been in my care for over a year already and are not new business.

Also in the scenario I described Lizhas again clearly said - provided can meet ALL childrens needs a choildminder can agree to take on 2 baby siblings making a total of 5 under 5.

However those that have school choildren aged 5 - 8 will have less flexibility as at NO TIME must the 6 under 8 rule be broken.

Penny :)

[Penny1959]

At long last if the above response is correct this means that I can now run my business as I want. Not just having the flexibility to care for more children as and when it is needed but to cut down on the amount of time and effort it has taken over the years to get variations through in time for me to run my business.

I for one welcome the fact that I can make my own decisions on how many children I can care for and that I will be accountable for any decisions I make. I work very closely with the local pre-school taking and collecting children before and after their pre-school sessions sometimes only caring for these children for an hour a day but due to restraints on numbers it has been very difficult to mind other children around this service now I can do my preschool runs and care for younger children throughout the day without always ensuring that I have an assistant with me.

Whilst some of you will think that some childminders will abuse this system you must also consider the ones who by having this flexibility will mean that for some of us we can provide for more parents particularly those who only need a few hours a day/week who many minders will turn away because it is not viable for them to do so few hours whilst for some of us it would be beneficial to take this business on. During my many years of minding i have had very few 'full timers' mainly running my business on a number of part timers and have personally lost out on a lot of business over the years by not being able to fit another child in due to a few hours overlap now hopefully I will be able to offer a more flexible service.

Many of you like me must see 'unregistered childminders' at school/preschools every day, hopefully by giving registered childminders more flexibility some of us can offer registered childcare to a larger number of children and stop some of the unregistered childcare that is going on all over the country. I for one would put a stop to the 'two hour' rule that allows unregistered childcare to take place. This type of childcare totally undermines the rules and regulations
that we have to undertake and also there is a greater risk to the child if first aid and safeguarding is not compulsory and obviously these 'minders' have no insurance whatsoever should an accident happen when caring for these children.

Denise

I agree it will make things a lot easier for those who apply the rules and mean we can be much more flexible (as you say) for the parents of part time children who require occassional extra hours / days - provided we never break the 6 under 8 rule.

Penny :)

[SYLVIA]

Can I just ask for some help on a situation I have just turned down here. A parent with 18 mth visits on possible placement (move from local nursery to me) but I can't cover thursdays as I have 5 that day, one in yr1 and 4 under 5. One of these will start school in September. So if I started the newbie now and did the thurs from sept/oct I wouldn't have to get Ofsted written approval? All the other days fit perfectly. It would give me 6 that day but 2 would be in full time school

[rachelle]

Thanks Penny,

This is a huge help to me. I have one mum who is a supply teacher and is often offered additional work to her one weekly booked session - I must have phoned about 8 times last month for one off variations for her child - often just to be one over on the school run!

[Penny1959]

Can I just ask for some help on a situation I have just turned down here. A parent with 18 mth visits on possible placement (move from local nursery to me) but I can't cover thursdays as I have 5 that day, one in yr1 and 4 under 5. One of these will start school in September. So if I started the newbie now and did the thurs from sept/oct I wouldn't have to get Ofsted written approval? All the other days fit perfectly. It would give me 6 that day but 2 would be in full time school

As I read it I would say yes - the two in school will be counted in with the 5 -8 age range, leaving you with 3 under 5's on every day except Thursday when you would have 4 under 5 - reason being to meet parents work requirements and continuity of care.

At no time would you have more than 6 under 8 (assumption that you do not pick up any other under 8's from school)


However please remember this is from Sept 12 - current rules apply until then.

Also remember this is my personal opinion - I have no legal right to say yes or no!

Penny :)

[SYLVIA]

Thanks Penny, food for thought. Maybe I'll get back to her and see what she thinks as she said she was willingly to wait till Sept to move him anyway. She might say no now because I said no in the first place. It would help me as I have one going to before and after school, one going completely and one going to 2 days, all at once!

[miffy]

Thank you Penny (and for your e-mail), it's good to have some clarification but I share your worry that this fits oh so neatly into the deregulation proposals.

Miffy xx

[tashaleee]

That makes interesting reading but also makes me wonder if it is part of the thought process for deregulation.

I also wonder, for those with an assistant, how the changes in September would affect them? If normally you could have 3 under 5s working alone and 6 under 5s with an assistant does this mean you could have (like a max of 12 under 5s if you didnt have school aged children) more for continuity of care without applying for a variation from September (ie shift workers, odd days needed, etc)? Slightly confused and a little early in the day for me - am also thinking this will be open widely to abuse by an awful lot of people:blush:

[Penny1959]

That makes interesting reading but also makes me wonder if it is part of the thought process for deregulation.

I also wonder, for those with an assistant, how the changes in September would affect them? If normally you could have 3 under 5s working alone and 6 under 5s with an assistant does this mean you could have (like a max of 12 under 5s if you didnt have school aged children) more for continuity of care without applying for a variation from September (ie shift workers, odd days needed, etc)? Slightly confused and a little early in the day for me - am also thinking this will be open widely to abuse by an awful lot of people:blush:

I think the biggest problem will be regulating it - I know of childminders who already 'stretch' the rules by starting a child one day a week (as have space) even though parent says from the start they want more days - then put in for variation.

I think people will be saying 'extra' child is continuity of care - when in fact is new business.

I personally could not do this as my ethos would not let me - as I would rather be honest, professional and above board at all times.

Penny :)

[tashaleee]

I think the biggest problem will be regulating it - I know of childminders who already 'stretch' the rules by starting a child one day a week (as have space) even though parent says from the start they want more days - then put in for variation.

I think people will be saying 'extra' child is continuity of care - when in fact is new business.

I personally could not do this as my ethos would not let me - as I would rather be honest, professional and above board at all times.

Penny :)

Penny I totally agree - what worries me is that with an assistant people could 'technically' have 12 under 5s (if Ive read and understood everything).... thats a very very scary thought :eek:

[Penny1959]

Penny I totally agree - what worries me is that with an assistant people could 'technically' have 12 under 5s (if Ive read and understood everything).... thats a very very scary thought :eek:

Local planning may prevent that - but in theory that would seem possible if it was for continuity of care. However I think when working with an assistant that it unlikely that there would be a genuine need to extend numbers by 6.

My own situation would I think be quite rare - in genuine circumstances - and I would think that most childminders most of the time wouldremain within the standard ratio's.

Penny :)

[tinkerbelle]

will they still be counting your own children in the numbers or for example iv got a 17 month old and a 7 month old of my own but my partner is here 24/7 so is mainly responsible for them during working hours would that mean i can now go back to having 3 mindees aged under 5 years and 6 under 8 as i can choose if i can provide care for them or will they still remain in my numbers

[muffins]

will they still be counting your own children in the numbers or for example iv got a 17 month old and a 7 month old of my own but my partner is here 24/7 so is mainly responsible for them during working hours would that mean i can now go back to having 3 mindees aged under 5 years and 6 under 8 as i can choose if i can provide care for them or will they still remain in my numbers

I've managed to get round this by registering my husband as my assistant, he does however only care for our own LO's but it leaves me free to have 3 in EY again!:D

[sarah707]

will they still be counting your own children in the numbers or for example iv got a 17 month old and a 7 month old of my own but my partner is here 24/7 so is mainly responsible for them during working hours would that mean i can now go back to having 3 mindees aged under 5 years and 6 under 8 as i can choose if i can provide care for them or will they still remain in my numbers

Yes your own children will still be counted in your ratios.

When they are rising 5 - 4 or 5 and in full time school - they are counted as over 5.

Hth :D

[tinkerbelle]

its ridiculous really when hes home and iv tried registering him 4 months ago n 3 lots of paperwork but as usual ofsted loose it