Replies to my questions re 2 year olds in school provission

[Penny1959]

Yesterday I posted asking if anyone else had heard about the possible changes re2 year olds in school based provision.

This was because a colleague had emailedme with some info.


I have now asked some questions - and my colleague has responded as below.

Hello Penny


Yes I have all same questions - suppose it will all become clear on Wed when the announcement is made

Nick Clegg is suppose to be leading the announcement.


Your questions



Do you mean the schools are going to take in 3 year olds into full time school?
or do you mean into school based nursery?



no you will have 2/3/4 year olds in school nursery provision is my understanding

depending when their birthday is. This is so schools can access the 2 year old funding.

Is this just for your LA area or is it for the whole country?

(no one else seems to of heard of it)



No across the country.

Re the 2 year funding - is this for school nurseries - ie 2 year olds will be in school based nurseries?
If so do you know anything about the ratio's - is it going to be the same as pre schools / day nurseries or will they come under the school ratio's?



Well we will wait and see- preschools could be at risk depending on how their relationship is with schools.

I think schools will have a big shock- however underpressure to do this. Some of our two year olds are only now just beginning to speak. Let alone there will be no sleeping at their own patterns. In real terms they will need to have them in the morning to get the best from them.




When are they talking of implementing this? - if they are having to build - I assume that it will take a while.



I believe where there is capacity it will be implemented asap- sept. Where not there will be some money to make alterations.


****** x


My reaction - oh flip (and a couple of stronger words) What about the children' s needs and being age and stage appropriate? My seond thought was - does all this link t NCMA's undue haste to widen membership? does it link to the suggested agency system for childminders?

Are we begining to see the 'bigger picture'


Penny

[loocyloo]

this is all very scary, and makes me think that things have been being planned for sometime without actually talking to anyone on the 'shopfloor' as it were.

those poor little children.

[uf353432]

What is a school nursery?

Is this preschools will be able to take children from 2yrs to offer the free funded places?

But 2yr old funded places are limited no? they are not extending it to all 2 yr olds are they?

[Penny1959]

What is a school nursery?

Is this preschools will be able to take children from 2yrs to offer the free funded places?

But 2yr old funded places are limited no? they are not extending it to all 2 yr olds are they?

It is part of the school - so in effect classrooms for children under the age of 5. Some areas have them - some don't. It is managed and funded through the school budget and the FE. Thenursery staff are paid by the school.

Usually they offer either morning or afternoon sessions - and prents like them because they THINK it helps secure their child a placeat that school.

Sometimes they offered an extened offer where for a small additional fee the children can attend all day

Penny

[Mouse]

Our school nursery doesn't have space for all the children who want to go there now, so I can't see how they would manage to let even younger children go.

And some of our schools don't have a nursery attached to them at all.

I do agree with what loocyloo said. I've been wondering for a while if these plans have been in place for some time, but kept quiet

[wendywu]

What is a school nursery?

Is this preschools will be able to take children from 2yrs to offer the free funded places?

But 2yr old funded places are limited no? they are not extending it to all 2 yr olds are they?

I thought that the 2year old funded places were limited and depended on certain criteria being met.

[caz3007]

We have a brand new primary opened 2 years ago and it doesnt have the space to take on 2 year olds, the nursery part if you ask me is rather small and cramped, sort of an afterthought, unlike the nursery they had at the old school. Children who attend the nursery arent guaranteed a place and the school itself is oversubscribed.

Just wondering where these 2 year old nursery places will be

[uf353432]

But 2 year olds are BABIES!!!

I can only just accept that nurseries are ok for 2 yr olds - because I think that they SHOULD be in a home environment in sibling groups - ie a childminder.

Whatever next?

Really really unsettling times.

I guess if they don't have enough spaces to offer the 2yr old provision they have to look outside the box. But have they really explored all the options?

[miffy]

Our children are just becoming commodities - they are worth money, how sad

Miffy xx

[Mouse]

I'm guessing this will still only be for disadvantaged 2 year olds, not all of them And that it would only be for the 15hrs a week.

Surely no government will have the money to provide free nursery eductaion to all 2yr olds.

I can see childminders being left to look after babies up to the age of 2 & offering wrap around care for the 2s and above

[loocyloo]

but how on earth can anyone think that a disadvantaged 2 yr old is the right child to take into a school setting? my well adjusted 2 yr olds would struggle on a daily basis!

i have a child on 2 yr funding, who would have shrivelled away into a neurotic heap in a big setting, and lets not even think how LOs mum would have coped ( this mum did a 5 hr settling session and has taken, and still takes alot of reassurance that LO is ok. this i can do, as i 'only' have 3 or 4 LO to care for! )

i am also in talks about taking another LO when she turns 2 ... she would never ever manage in school, well, she might, but only with some very intensive support!

[Mouse]

but how on earth can anyone think that a disadvantaged 2 yr old is the right child to take into a school setting? my well adjusted 2 yr olds would struggle on a daily basis!

i have a child on 2 yr funding, who would have shrivelled away into a neurotic heap in a big setting, and lets not even think how LOs mum would have coped ( this mum did a 5 hr settling session and has taken, and still takes alot of reassurance that LO is ok. this i can do, as i 'only' have 3 or 4 LO to care for! )

i am also in talks about taking another LO when she turns 2 ... she would never ever manage in school, well, she might, but only with some very intensive support!

That is so true.

I think some of the problem is that few childminders (the perfect setting) offer the 2yr old funded places. I was accepted to offer them, but have never had any vacancies to be able to take a child on.
I suppose the government has made a pledge that a certain percentage of 2yr olds will receive funding, so to meet their targets they have to find the spaces from somewhere - never mind what's actually right for the children

[loocyloo]

i am lucky, that i can wiggle things to take on each individual funded 2 yr old. i would only have 1 a day though, as they can be twice the amount of work.

there are very few childminders in my area able to take these children, although i hear that it is being rolled out for all childminders.

[Penny1959]

My colleague has now phoned

She says the government do not have enough places for the expected rise in 2 year old places needed

I know this is true - in my area (different to my colleague) they are going to have to find around another 1000 2 year old places over the next couple of years - and this is why they have reduced all the old criteria for becoming accredited chilminder - as they hope that cms will provide the places.

She says in her local school they do not have enough space - but that at the meeting they were talking about temporary buildings (portacabins?) - again I know these are usedand acceptable as at my local school the school uses them AND the local independant pre school that has its portacabins in the school grounds.

I suppose before we all panic too much and worry about the children in this country - we should wait for Wednesday - and see if their is an annoucement - because although it was someone from a national organisation telling my colleague this (and the others in the room) there is a possibility that she has got her facts muddled.

My colleague will not have her fats muddled - she will have told me them as she heard them.

Penny

[uf353432]

i guess they will view it as 'something' is better than 'nothing' as long as these plans don't interrupt the progress of better plans - like bringing on board more childminders in area's then as an interim it might be the only possible option. As long as they don't reach numbers and then say ah well we've done that now - and forget that these were never ideal in the first place.

[AgentTink]

This kind of starts to explain why they have talked about us been deregulated.

If all three and four years old get 15 hours a week education and now 45% ish of disadvantaged children at 2 will have free education, then actually childminders are being classed simply as being just care givers. The thinking must be that the other 55% of 2 years old will be fine just being "cared for" until they are three.

I suppose the new eyfs backs this up as it states that under 3's must mainly have free play with a adult around for support. So actually all they need is a safe environment were they are cared for.

How on earth does our country have so many disadvantaged children? What makes a child classed as disadvantaged?

It apparently does not seem to matter that research suggests that children shouldn't have such formal education from a young age. What are we doing to the children of our future.

In our area the 3 schools local to me have no room for any 2 year olds, as they struggle to give all 3/4 years old a space. They would have to build additional classrooms to fit them in, so I'm not too sure who would fund that.

[Penny1959]

. They would have to build additional classrooms to fit them in, so I'm not too sure who would fund that.

It seems that has been thought of and plans are at an advance stage to secure the funding.

Also the legal bods just have to fine tune the required changes to the wording for 2 year olds to be in school nurseries.

Penny

[wendywu]

Maybe deregulating us and allowing us to take on more under 5s is the goverments way of getting us to take on the 2 year olds that get free funding.

In our area we are always full. The hourly rate for the funding is less than the going rate. So no one is going to take on a child for 15 hours a week at a lesser rate in place of a full time child full time.

[uf353432]

As an accredited childminder I have never actually lost a child at 3 to go to preschool - i've lost some hours - but most of my parents see the benefit of both the large and small group dynamics the preschool and I offer and see it as complimentary care and education. Because I offer minimum 2 hours care - all my work is part time and so i've always filled my spaces.

I think more childminders should become accredited so that parents don't have to go down the preschool route - because in my area lots of parents still value childminders all the way up to walking them into the first day at school.

Saying that there can't be a demand for 2yr old funding local to me because i've never been approached to offer it by my LA, nor have any other childminders locally. I might ask about it though.

[uf353432]

Maybe deregulating us and allowing us to take on more under 5s is the goverments way of getting us to take on the 2 year olds that get free funding.

In our area we are always full. The hourly rate for the funding is less than the going rate. So no one is going to take on a child for 15 hours a week at a lesser rate in place of a full time child full time.

yes I agree about this - once I offer over 20 hours of funded hours I start making a loss on my hourly rate.

Though I did come home yesterday to a invitation to attend a workshop to consult on a new formula in our area - so I live in hope that they have taken our complaints seriously!