Help with fees

[Lizd06]

Hi all I'm new to the forum and to child minding.

I have just had my pre reg so have put up a advert.
I have a fee per hour in mind but have had a message from a parent with three children 3,2 and a 7month old.
I would have the 7mth old full time and the other two before and after nursery, not sure of nursery times at this point.
Now my dilemma is what do I charge them as a whole. As if I take on this family I can not have any other children under 3. But I'd only have 2 of the children part time.

We are in the very early stages and the woman is asking about my fees!
Any ideas would be most grateful
Thank you

[moggy]

Hi all I'm new to the forum and to child minding.

I have just had my pre reg so have put up a advert.
I have a fee per hour in mind but have had a message from a parent with three children 3,2 and a 7month old.
I would have the 7mth old full time and the other two before and after nursery, not sure of nursery times at this point.
Now my dilemma is what do I charge them as a whole. As if I take on this family I can not have any other children under 3. But I'd only have 2 of the children part time.

We are in the very early stages and the woman is asking about my fees!
Any ideas would be most grateful
Thank you

I charge per hour per child. That way, if one child stops coming to you it is clear what they still have to pay. I'd never do a 'family price'.
So the 7mth old is full time so that is easy.
The ones you take and collect from nursery I would still charge full fees while they are at nursery- I would not want to try to fill those few in-between hours and parents want me on call incase child needs collecting early/inset days/nursery closures etc. and to keep place for school holidays.
So would be charging full fees for each child for the full hours.

[moggy]

By the way, someone might want to move this to the right section of the Forum?! (or re-post to get more replies)


Also wanted to add- you are in a very strong position for negotiations- it is a rare thing to have 3 EYFS spaces available so do not sell yourself short. This family is probably delighted to have found you!

[Lizd06]

Thanks for the reply
So to my calculations (which are not the best) that would be like £100 a day???
Now I'm not complaining at that but is that a serious sum?

[Sammy Jo T]

Thanks for the reply
So to my calculations (which are not the best) that would be like £100 a day???
Now I'm not complaining at that but is that a serious sum?

If it helps, to decide my fee's I actually looked on here at the other childminders locally to see what they charge and made my decision from there. I've decided to charge per hour with a minimum 3 hours per day. I agree I'd charge per child and not discount.

[moggy]

Thanks for the reply
So to my calculations (which are not the best) that would be like £100 a day???
Now I'm not complaining at that but is that a serious sum?

£100? bargain!
It would be about £145 a day for 3 little ones round here (8am-5pm)

If you take them on your are going to have no other EYFS income so it needs to be the right amount.
Also, remember that if this family suddenly give you notice (move house, redundant, change childcare plans) then you are going to lose ALL your EYFS income. That would be a major blow, so don't lose out on the fees- you are taking on a lot of risk.

[rachaelamy]

Hi all I'm new to the forum and to child minding.

I have just had my pre reg so have put up a advert.
I have a fee per hour in mind but have had a message from a parent with three children 3,2 and a 7month old.
I would have the 7mth old full time and the other two before and after nursery, not sure of nursery times at this point.
Now my dilemma is what do I charge them as a whole. As if I take on this family I can not have any other children under 3. But I'd only have 2 of the children part time.

We are in the very early stages and the woman is asking about my fees!
Any ideas would be most grateful
Thank you

In my area for preschoolers we charge a min of 6 hours a day unless we are able to fill the space with a child leaving before the other child is due to be picked up. we don't charge for school age and use a flat fee of £10 for school drop off and pick ups.

[bunyip]

I negotiate fees individually with each client. I have a basic hourly rate as a starting point, then factor in things like TTO, "flexibility", minimum fee, etc.

One thing I never do (after getting scr3w3d over) is sibling discounts. It's been discussed many times here. There is absolutely no reason why 3 from 1 family should pay less than 3 from 3 families. They don't get sibling discount on food, clothing, etc. so why is childcare the only place people expect it? They should think about how many children they can afford when they're procreating. I do get asked and I say that it would create an awkward situation if I later had the chance to take on 3 at full price. Do we want an arrangement that offers the prospect of me giving notice if I get a better offer? Anyone would be daft to turn down more money, and do mum and dad want that hanging over the relationship?

Btw, the other one to be wary of is the potential clients who don't want to pay full whack for a school run because, "you're already going up to school everyday for Mrs Jones' child."

Subject to a minimum daily charge per child, I do not generally charge for time spent at nursery. But, I don't then promise to be available for nursery emergency collection, etc. If any client ever wanted that cover, then I'd maybe think I did have to charge. I certainly do expect them to have a better reason for sending them to nursery (ie. for the child's benefit) than just saving money: otherwise I'd turn the job down.

I'd use the time they're at nursery to try and fill it with short-hours clients. I find there's far more scope for this than most people think. Offering 3 hour slots to funded children is one way. I find a lot of children being looked after by grandparents, for whom 2-3 hours off to get their shopping or hair done is most gratefully received (and paid for.) One local CM has the children of 2 contract cleaners who earn enough to pay my friend and still make a tidy profit in a morning (which is a sad indictment of what people will pay for different services. )

IME the 1 thing that P's off parents most about childcare is having to pay their nursery/CM/whoever for the time they don't have the child. They also get fed up with asking why a CM follows a particular practice and hearing the lame excuse of "well everyone else does it". Personally, I think that sort of unlogic should be left in the playground.

Far better to calculate a price for the hours used that covers all your costs and meets your target income. Honestly, this is what happens in virtually every sort of self-employment except childcare. For some inexplicable reason, CMs want to be their own bosses, then simply copy what everyone else does. If you're independent and your own boss, then be independent and be your own boss.

[Lizd06]

Thanks for your advice

What does TTO and TT stand for?

Also just to get an idea for this situation is it normal to charge for the time the children are at nursery? As this is potentially money lost for me. Secures them a place for nursery closures. Etc.

I guess it's the children's free 15 hours places at the nursery too!

This has kept me awake. Just going round and round in my head!

Thanks for your help xx

[Simona]

Hi all I'm new to the forum and to child minding.

I have just had my pre reg so have put up a advert.
I have a fee per hour in mind but have had a message from a parent with three children 3,2 and a 7month old.
I would have the 7mth old full time and the other two before and after nursery, not sure of nursery times at this point.
Now my dilemma is what do I charge them as a whole. As if I take on this family I can not have any other children under 3. But I'd only have 2 of the children part time.

We are in the very early stages and the woman is asking about my fees!
Any ideas would be most grateful
Thank you

Whatever you decide to charge in the end make sure you state clearly in your contract that you review fees every year.
Otherwise parents may give you a bit of trouble if you decide to raise them....if they are warned they cannot complain after
Be careful if you charge different fees as parents talk to each other and may raise it as 'unfair'...your decision but think of sustainability first and foremost

[bunyip]

Thanks for your advice

What does TTO and TT stand for?

Also just to get an idea for this situation is it normal to charge for the time the children are at nursery? As this is potentially money lost for me. Secures them a place for nursery closures. Etc.

I guess it's the children's free 15 hours places at the nursery too!

This has kept me awake. Just going round and round in my head!

Thanks for your help xx

Sorry, we continue to inflict TCMA's (trendy child-minding abbreviations) on poor unsuspecting newbies. Don't ever be afraid to ask, and soon you'll be speaking fluent Childminderese.

TTO = term time only

TT = term time (also a motorcycle race)

I see you've already picked up Self-Employed Syndrome (don't worry, it happens to us all to some degree) by talking about 'potential unearned income' as "money lost". IMHO you can lose a whole lot more money if you put off clients with all the additional charges parents hate so much. I do lots of 'bits & pieces' work that other local CMs wouldn't touch. I don't charge for various circumstances in which the children aren't here. Other local CMs do charge for, essentially, not looking after a child because they regard it as "money lost". The same local CMs are constantly moaning that they cannot attract sufficient clients. I am very nearly full. Go figure.

But, as previously mentioned, when you're self employed you have to find the way of working which suits you.

Me? Well I just don't do "normal".

[Kiddleywinks]

I don't charge a reduced amount for siblings, as already pointed out by the eloquent Bunyip, there's no expectation of discounts on clothes or food so why childcare? One child takes up one space and each space is paid for at the appropriate rate.

I don't look at as 'money lost' because the money isn't there until the contract is signed, sealed and delivered, so whilst I get what Bunyip is saying, and kind of agree to a point, I do charge for child whilst at nursery - If I'm taking AND picking up, and/or expected to provide cover should nursery be closed for any reason, then yes, of course I charge, a service that's provided should be paid for, however, if I was collecting only, then I have a morning or afternoon session available for someone else so wouldn't charge, but I would be explaining to parent that they would also have to find someone else to cover nursery's hours

There is very little demand as far as I'm aware (in my area at least) for the period of time between arriving back home from dropping off (9.30) to having to leave again to collect (11.30) - and I have actively advertised the time : 'me time', shopping in peace, hair appointments, even time for interviews... not one person in nearly 2 years has even enquired about it.
I will still continue advertising it, nobody else does, or at least not on their FIS or CC.co.uk listings

[Simona]

I don't charge a reduced amount for siblings, as already pointed out by the eloquent Bunyip, there's no expectation of discounts on clothes or food so why childcare? One child takes up one space and each space is paid for at the appropriate rate.

I don't look at as 'money lost' because the money isn't there until the contract is signed, sealed and delivered, so whilst I get what Bunyip is saying, and kind of agree to a point, I do charge for child whilst at nursery - If I'm taking AND picking up, and/or expected to provide cover should nursery be closed for any reason, then yes, of course I charge, a service that's provided should be paid for, however, if I was collecting only, then I have a morning or afternoon session available for someone else so wouldn't charge, but I would be explaining to parent that they would also have to find someone else to cover nursery's hours

There is very little demand as far as I'm aware (in my area at least) for the period of time between arriving back home from dropping off (9.30) to having to leave again to collect (11.30) - and I have actively advertised the time : 'me time', shopping in peace, hair appointments, even time for interviews... not one person in nearly 2 years has even enquired about it.
I will still continue advertising it, nobody else does, or at least not on their FIS or CC.co.uk listings

I wonder where and when the idea of a discount for siblings started?
Am I right parents get equal amounts from govt towards childcare costs?
Childcare vouchers are the same too...each child gets the same amount?

We get equal amount in funding and the EYPP will be the same...so this discount puzzles me as 2 children take 2 places!

cms will never be the same in what they charge...I find nurseries more in line but I always wonder if we do take account of the costs that we need to meet all year round...the obligatory ones which I feel all parents need to contribute to

The example you mention is very pertinent.....some charge when children are at preschool and some don't.

For any new cms like lizd06 it is a case of trial and error...start somewhere and then review your financial affairs/fees/who pays what and when ... if it doesn't work.

[Mummits]

I think I am relatively lucky in that our local preschool offers morning and afternoon sessions with the option for parents to bridge the half hour between with a "lunch club" (take your own sandwiches and eat them for half an hour for a fiver!), so I do sometimes have parents of little ones wanting essentially before and after school care and a reasonable chunk of time in between that is at least potentially usable by other children. However, I find that those most likely to actually want to book that space are the parents of the funded two, three and four year olds and the rates of pay are therefore not great, but better than nothing.

The other local nursery school has only morning sessions 0930-1200 which is awkward and doesn't fit well with school runs or getting other mindees to morning groups, and does not realistically allow care of a different child in the short gap. Having done it once or twice, I wouldn't be inclined to do it again, or certainly not on standard terms.

What I do wonder though, is whether a parent would rather I said (on the basis that I wouldn't charge for nursery hours) that I am not interested in taking their child full stop, or whether they would rather I said that I would consider taking them but that I would charge a higher than normal rate for the extra inconvenience/fact that they would be taking a whole day space? In my opinion, I think most parents would recognise why taking a child part time hours and with the added hassle of a couple of nursery runs is a less attractive prospect than simply taking a baby or toddler who remains with you all day. I can understand, presentationally that some might bridle at being told they need to pay for "nothing" (i.e the hours the child is at nursery, but I think they might be okay with paying a day rate or a higher hourly rate which amounts to much the same thing.

I do incidentally think it is ridiculous to say - which you do often hear, if not on here - that it is somehow morally wrong to charge for nursery hours, or indeed holiday, or meals, or toddler groups, whatever. Everyone sets their own terms to which parents agree or go elsewhere - it is at worst unwise to charge more or differently from the pack.

I also think that the worst possible scenario is taking on a child when the childminder feels from the outset inadequately rewarded/compensated and where they may have dilemmas down the line about whether to give notice when a better paying or less arduous option presents itself. There are plenty who say but I would never do that, but equally plenty of folk bemoaning that this is exactly what they feel obliged to do, either for financial or logistical reasons. So I would say there is nothing wrong with asking extra for awkward jobs, because both parties need to be happy with the deal they have struck.

[natlou82]

You do literally have to find your own way. In this situation I would probably charge a half day fee for the 2 LOs but again that would not guarantee a full days space in the hols or school closures. If they wanted that guarantee I would charge differently, probably not my full day rate but some kind of retainer to guarantee the space.

[bunyip]

I wonder where and when the idea of a discount for siblings started?
Am I right parents get equal amounts from govt towards childcare costs?
Childcare vouchers are the same too...each child gets the same amount?

I too wonder where the sibling discount idea started. Likewise, the "daily rate": as in, "hey. let's charge less for more work. Great!" Someone has a lot to answer for.

By raising the point about CV's you've made me think. No, they're not the same per child: they're the same per parent who opts into an employer's scheme. ie. 2 parents with 1 child could get £243 X2 = £486pcm. A single parent could have 10 children and still only get £243pcm in CVs.

Maybe there's a case for charging 2 parent families a supplement if they're both on CVs, as ou could argue they're getting a disproportionately high level of tax relief. Never mind discounts.

[Simona]

I too wonder where the sibling discount idea started. Likewise, the "daily rate": as in, "hey. let's charge less for more work. Great!" Someone has a lot to answer for.

By raising the point about CV's you've made me think. No, they're not the same per child: they're the same per parent who opts into an employer's scheme. ie. 2 parents with 1 child could get £243 X2 = £486pcm. A single parent could have 10 children and still only get £243pcm in CVs.

Maybe there's a case for charging 2 parent families a supplement if they're both on CVs, as ou could argue they're getting a disproportionately high level of tax relief. Never mind discounts.

Valid point on the C/v...I did phrase that very badly
Each parent gets the same amount either £243 or £124 if they are high earners.
Mmmm!!! ..I wonder how it will work for the new Tax free childcare scheme?

do parents still get child benefit? which is more for the first born, and less for others but they get benefit for each child...even if they have 10?

what about Tax credits?...not very knowledgeable on the last 2 because I never asked parents but the end result is that parents do have a lot of help while we are asked for discount for siblings

Daily rates ...I believe cms tend to do that but I feel they may lose out especially when they do not seem to review fees regularly

Sorry we are off on a tangent but all useful for newly registered cms I suppose!!

[rickysmiths]

Thanks for the reply
So to my calculations (which are not the best) that would be like £100 a day???
Now I'm not complaining at that but is that a serious sum?

If they were in my area it would be around £165 per day £100 is low.

Remember you are not a Charity you are running a business and if this were three separate children you wouldn't think twice about how to charge for the day.

Remember as well, that if they decide to leave you in the future you will loose all your business in one go so you are taking on a huge risk taking on one family to fill your spaces so definitely no family discounts!

The parents must have an idea how much 3 under fives are going to cost and they have to sort it not you. So as others have said do not sell yourself short you will only come to resent it if you do.

Remember you will need to to a complete set of paperwork for each child including a Contract each and all the permissions etc and Child Record/Medical form.

I normally take a 4 weeks fees Deposit for a child and hold it until the end of the Contract to use for the Notice period. 3 x 4 weeks is a lot so I might suggest paying one lot up front and the rest in installments over the first 2 -3 months of the contract so I would set the fees for this time a bit higher to cover the Deposit.

[bunyip]

Ultimately, I agree that each CM can and should set their own fees.

That is exactly why I find it disappointing that the vast majority of CMs enter self-employment with the notion that they have to conform to some sort of 'norm' of what everyone else does. No offence to the OP, but it's tiresome to see "what should I do?" "what does everyone else do?" over and over again, ad nauseum. To their shame, a lot of the advice coming from DOs, pacey, etc. has perpetuated this idea. Such organisations really ought to get a grip and begin to understand what "self employment" means. They claim we need to look at what everyone else is charging so as to "be competitive". The reality is that the average gets constantly dragged down to the level of the lowest. So, high-quality provisions end up being forced to charge at or near the same rates as the barely-adequate CM down the road who shoves 6 children in front of the tv with a bowl of Value Beans whilst s/he gets on with the ironing. As I've said previously, this also gives LAs just the statistic basis they need to keep paying sub-standard levels for funded childcare.

What I really can't abide is when these 'norms' are taken to extremes and people suggest we have to follow them. This is possibly why I'm regularly on my soapbox about the whole thing. It's the main reason why I left my local CM group. They operate as a sort of cartel-come-mafia, where you have to comply, use the same fees policy, charge extra for unworked time/holidays/meals/this/that/the other - or else you're regarded as undercutting, poaching or stealing 'their' business. They couldn't actually throw you out of the group for refusing to comply, but they did make several people like me so unwelcome and ostracised that we simply voted with our feet and left. Shamefully, the group was overseen/led by an LA/pacey-staff DO who sanctioned all this bad practices by drawing them up as a members' "code of conduct".

I agree charging for unworked time is not a moral issue. But I have absolutely no sympathy with the sort of CMs whose paths I cross who deliberately continue with something that alienates their potential customers whilst simultaneously complaining they can't attract customers. There are times when the "taking up a space" argument holds water, but a lot of the time it means "I'm just going to charge you and not bother to look for anyone else." There are CMs near me who only charge for the full week, because a part-time child is "taking up a space". They cannot understand why they can't get clients to pay for 5 days and use only 3 of them. I've mentioned before a CM friend of mine who has the children of 2 contract cleaners whilst her other mindees are at preschool. It took her some time to realise she was still charging the mums of the nursery children full rate because she "couldn't fill the space" but she actually had filled the spaces.

I agree that each CM needs to find a way to spread the fixed and variable costs of the business across the users of the service. That is precisely why I fail to understand why Childcare is so different from 99.999999999999999999% of other self-employed businesses. The normal self-employed thing to do is to work out a fee (cost of labour) for all work done, 'dead time' (including holidays/bank holidays, running costs, trade subscriptions, etc, etc, the lot. They then use this figure, together with a notion of how much money they need to make from doing the work and present a simple figure when they price up a contract. Hence the sparky who rewires a house in 8.5 days charges labour for 8.5 days. He doesn't charge you for 9 because he hasn't troubled to line up a half-day's work somewhere else. Neither does he pop round with a bill when he goes on holiday: he's already factored into his usual costs the fact that he needs to eat for 52 weeks of the year even if he only works 48 of them.

If we could do something similar, we'd all save ourselves a lot of problems and maybe, just maybe, stop dragging our income down to the lowest common denominator.

[Simona]

Ultimately, I agree that each CM can and should set their own fees.

That is exactly why I find it disappointing that the vast majority of CMs enter self-employment with the notion that they have to conform to some sort of 'norm' of what everyone else does. No offence to the OP, but it's tiresome to see "what should I do?" "what does everyone else do?" over and over again, ad nauseum. To their shame, a lot of the advice coming from DOs, pacey, etc. has perpetuated this idea. Such organisations really ought to get a grip and begin to understand what "self employment" means. They claim we need to look at what everyone else is charging so as to "be competitive". The reality is that the average gets constantly dragged down to the level of the lowest. So, high-quality provisions end up being forced to charge at or near the same rates as the barely-adequate CM down the road who shoves 6 children in front of the tv with a bowl of Value Beans whilst s/he gets on with the ironing. As I've said previously, this also gives LAs just the statistic basis they need to keep paying sub-standard levels for funded childcare.

What I really can't abide is when these 'norms' are taken to extremes and people suggest we have to follow them. This is possibly why I'm regularly on my soapbox about the whole thing. It's the main reason why I left my local CM group. They operate as a sort of cartel-come-mafia, where you have to comply, use the same fees policy, charge extra for unworked time/holidays/meals/this/that/the other - or else you're regarded as undercutting, poaching or stealing 'their' business. They couldn't actually throw you out of the group for refusing to comply, but they did make several people like me so unwelcome and ostracised that we simply voted with our feet and left. Shamefully, the group was overseen/led by an LA/pacey-staff DO who sanctioned all this bad practices by drawing them up as a members' "code of conduct".

I agree charging for unworked time is not a moral issue. But I have absolutely no sympathy with the sort of CMs whose paths I cross who deliberately continue with something that alienates their potential customers whilst simultaneously complaining they can't attract customers. There are times when the "taking up a space" argument holds water, but a lot of the time it means "I'm just going to charge you and not bother to look for anyone else." There are CMs near me who only charge for the full week, because a part-time child is "taking up a space". They cannot understand why they can't get clients to pay for 5 days and use only 3 of them. I've mentioned before a CM friend of mine who has the children of 2 contract cleaners whilst her other mindees are at preschool. It took her some time to realise she was still charging the mums of the nursery children full rate because she "couldn't fill the space" but she actually had filled the spaces.

I agree that each CM needs to find a way to spread the fixed and variable costs of the business across the users of the service. That is precisely why I fail to understand why Childcare is so different from 99.999999999999999999% of other self-employed businesses. The normal self-employed thing to do is to work out a fee (cost of labour) for all work done, 'dead time' (including holidays/bank holidays, running costs, trade subscriptions, etc, etc, the lot. They then use this figure, together with a notion of how much money they need to make from doing the work and present a simple figure when they price up a contract. Hence the sparky who rewires a house in 8.5 days charges labour for 8.5 days. He doesn't charge you for 9 because he hasn't troubled to line up a half-day's work somewhere else. Neither does he pop round with a bill when he goes on holiday: he's already factored into his usual costs the fact that he needs to eat for 52 weeks of the year even if he only works 48 of them.

If we could do something similar, we'd all save ourselves a lot of problems and maybe, just maybe, stop dragging our income down to the lowest common denominator.

I would like to list a few things that your post has triggered in my mind...especially as you say what is the 'norm'...but I am aware we are deviating from the OP

Why don't you start a new thread in the Independent Cms section so we can all input without worrying of hijacking the original question