Cooling off period

[mum67]

Hi everyone

I have a bit of a dilemma with a new parent/mindees. We spent nigh on three hours going through P&P's (Safeguarding, complaints, fees, the more important ones as I call them) agreeing on times/days, holiday care and then we both signed the contract and had a nice cuppa and general chat. Great I thought all the formal stuff out of the way now to get on with the fun stuff-minding the kids.

The hours were before and after school and holiday care, Not even into the second week and mum decides can we drop an hour each day for the after school (3hrs for 3 days) as the cost would be too much for her (5,6,8,9 yr old) I had already given a sibling discount of 10% which went against my better judgement to start with and a discount for holiday care as it was for 5 days a week throughout the 6 week hols, so nearly £200 off the original cost of fees. Gosh what do I do I thought I've already made a loss on this before we started, so I obliged because my silly heart told me to and not my business head (I know I should practice what I preach as I advised somebody on here to think with the brain and not the flutters, but it is hard when you are a mum also) then the 3rd week she comes back and cuts down to 1 day after school for only 2hrs! Hold on I thought I'm sure once the contract is signed that's it, I mean what on earth did we waste all those hours for in the beginning getting the contract right for her to strip it down? Again I obliged but only because I haven't had many calls albeit I haven't advertised properly yet and didn't want to lose them altogether.

Bear with me on this there is an end I promise.

Now the icing on the cake was when she asked me to mind the children in the 6 weeks for half rate for ALL of them. Have I got idiot wrote on my head or front door or something, maybe I should just mind them for the fun of it if that will really help you love (that's what I was tempted to say but I settled for) "No sorry, you are welcome to take them somewhere else for the holidays if you want and I won't hold you to the notice to be given as stated in OUR contract (for all its worth). We will discard our current contract and draw up a new one for September to coincide with the before/after school care and a deposit will be required which is NON-RETURNABLE if you don't take up the places or change anything within 2 months of starting the new contract (A tip I learnt from Rickysmiths I think).

She seemed shocked at my answer and it obviously hadn't gone to plan for her but enough was enough. The outcome was she wanted her way I wasn't giving it and so I haven't had them during the hols. Big loss on income but a huge gain in my confidence and people hearing I am not a soft touch.

A revisit to my contracts and fees policy was needed. I have put in the clause about changes within 2 months of signing will result in full fees still being
charged but do you think I should have a cooling off period after signing contracts or go through everything with parent then send them away with all the info on what we agree on and ask them to come back a week later to sign if everything is still alright with them.

I use MM contracts and had to use up 2 for the 4 children and feel they have been wasted, there's so much crossing out and initialing it looks like the lo's got to them.

Really need some advice here as will be putting my all into my job once September comes. Gave myself a little breather before starting full on so I could spend some quality time with my own children as I felt we were becoming strangers and I was just the home help. It was worth it though we are all smiling and enjoying each other again.

Please help anyone

[lisbet]

Sounds like a difficult situation! I'm glad you've got a fresh start planned x

Re the constantly changing hours: In my contracts I state 4wks notice for amending hours or finishing the contract. I can then use my discretion about whether or not I want to waive this notice period (ie if I want to help a nice family out, or if it suits me for the change to happen quickly) but I have some protection against sudden drops in income.

Re the cooling off period: I make sure parents understand that it is a legally binding agreement that they will be entering into, and so they should think carefully and make sure they understand everything before putting pen to paper. There is a space on my contracts for including a 'settling in period' (usually 4wks) where either party can terminate the contract immediately. However I haven't ever included it in an arrangement yet because most parents pay me the first months fees on signing the contract and I don't want to have to repay it. (I realise this could potentially leave me stuck with a very difficult child/ family for 4wks, but I'll take the chance.)

[Simona]

Hi everyone

I have a bit of a dilemma with a new parent/mindees. We spent nigh on three hours going through P&P's (Safeguarding, complaints, fees, the more important ones as I call them) agreeing on times/days, holiday care and then we both signed the contract and had a nice cuppa and general chat. Great I thought all the formal stuff out of the way now to get on with the fun stuff-minding the kids.

The hours were before and after school and holiday care, Not even into the second week and mum decides can we drop an hour each day for the after school (3hrs for 3 days) as the cost would be too much for her (5,6,8,9 yr old) I had already given a sibling discount of 10% which went against my better judgement to start with and a discount for holiday care as it was for 5 days a week throughout the 6 week hols, so nearly £200 off the original cost of fees. Gosh what do I do I thought I've already made a loss on this before we started, so I obliged because my silly heart told me to and not my business head (I know I should practice what I preach as I advised somebody on here to think with the brain and not the flutters, but it is hard when you are a mum also) then the 3rd week she comes back and cuts down to 1 day after school for only 2hrs! Hold on I thought I'm sure once the contract is signed that's it, I mean what on earth did we waste all those hours for in the beginning getting the contract right for her to strip it down? Again I obliged but only because I haven't had many calls albeit I haven't advertised properly yet and didn't want to lose them altogether.

Bear with me on this there is an end I promise.

Now the icing on the cake was when she asked me to mind the children in the 6 weeks for half rate for ALL of them. Have I got idiot wrote on my head or front door or something, maybe I should just mind them for the fun of it if that will really help you love (that's what I was tempted to say but I settled for) "No sorry, you are welcome to take them somewhere else for the holidays if you want and I won't hold you to the notice to be given as stated in OUR contract (for all its worth). We will discard our current contract and draw up a new one for September to coincide with the before/after school care and a deposit will be required which is NON-RETURNABLE if you don't take up the places or change anything within 2 months of starting the new contract (A tip I learnt from Rickysmiths I think).

She seemed shocked at my answer and it obviously hadn't gone to plan for her but enough was enough. The outcome was she wanted her way I wasn't giving it and so I haven't had them during the hols. Big loss on income but a huge gain in my confidence and people hearing I am not a soft touch.

A revisit to my contracts and fees policy was needed. I have put in the clause about changes within 2 months of signing will result in full fees still being
charged but do you think I should have a cooling off period after signing contracts or go through everything with parent then send them away with all the info on what we agree on and ask them to come back a week later to sign if everything is still alright with them.

I use MM contracts and had to use up 2 for the 4 children and feel they have been wasted, there's so much crossing out and initialing it looks like the lo's got to them.

Really need some advice here as will be putting my all into my job once September comes. Gave myself a little breather before starting full on so I could spend some quality time with my own children as I felt we were becoming strangers and I was just the home help. It was worth it though we are all smiling and enjoying each other again.

Please help anyone

You could state in your terms and Conditions that the first month is like a 'trial period'...if anything comes up within the first month of care you are willing to do a review asking parents to let you know what they want to discuss

If parents then want to decrease their hours after the first month you are entitled to the agreed notice and then the new hours kick in

What does your MM contract say on changes to hours?
Are you able to expand and introduce separate T&C to clarify anything missing in the contract? I had to do that when I used 'off the shelf' contracts for a short time because so many details were missing

Make sure the parent knows that you may have turned down other families to accommodate her needs...in addition... she is looking for care for 4 children...did I get that right? where is going to find a CM with 4 spaces?

Good luck... I can feel your frustration !

[mum67]

Thanks for your replies.

Yes Lisbet I thought quickly on my feet in the end and decided to double check all my paperwork. Luckily it was a bit of an heads up really as it opened my eyes to how crafty these parents can be. I did have a clause for termination but not for change of hours as such.

Simona I am going to make my own contracts with the help of my son who knows how to legally word things correctly as the MM just doesn't include a lot of things relevant to what I want. I did notice that when we were going through it and had to add or change certain areas to fit both our needs.
I am wondering whether to make a short contract for settling in periods and then staple it to the main one if things go well rather than go through the many pages of the hard copy so to speak.
Yes she wanted care for four children that's why I did a discount in the first place to help her out.

So mad with myself really because if I hadn't allowed her to change the first time I don't think she would have kept on asking further. I had to make a decision to say no to the other changes though as my tax credit renewal was due and I wasn't prepared to be down in money from them for hours/fees that I wasn't eventually going to get and be out of pocket with the changes as well. I wonder if she would be happy if her employer dropped her hours/wages each week because of running costs? no I doubt it.

I anticipated teething problems becoming self employed but didn't expect it to be this difficult.

Oh well we slave away in the hope we win the lottery one day

[smurfette]

I had one who signed on for a full week once mum finished using her hols up after maternity leave and then came back to me and said she couldn't afford it.. Her mum had offered two days a week and she felt it wouldn't be fair but also didn't want her mum staying with her every week for two days so would I do three days one week and five the opposite one? Like a fool I agreed as didn't want to lose her and managed to fill around it for most of the time.. But then one of my ad hoc mums wanted a permanent three day a week for her two which I couldn't help with with this mums hours .. She wouldn't budge so I told ad hoc mum I couldn't help her ., then four months later got notice from mum one! Funny she was able to move him to nursery.. Doubt they did a three day / five day deal and yet she could afford it?! Definitely live and learn eh?! Hugs x

[rickysmiths]

Hi everyone

I have a bit of a dilemma with a new parent/mindees. We spent nigh on three hours going through P&P's (Safeguarding, complaints, fees, the more important ones as I call them) agreeing on times/days, holiday care and then we both signed the contract and had a nice cuppa and general chat. Great I thought all the formal stuff out of the way now to get on with the fun stuff-minding the kids.

The hours were before and after school and holiday care, Not even into the second week and mum decides can we drop an hour each day for the after school (3hrs for 3 days) as the cost would be too much for her (5,6,8,9 yr old) I had already given a sibling discount of 10% which went against my better judgement to start with and a discount for holiday care as it was for 5 days a week throughout the 6 week hols, so nearly £200 off the original cost of fees. Gosh what do I do I thought I've already made a loss on this before we started, so I obliged because my silly heart told me to and not my business head (I know I should practice what I preach as I advised somebody on here to think with the brain and not the flutters, but it is hard when you are a mum also) then the 3rd week she comes back and cuts down to 1 day after school for only 2hrs! Hold on I thought I'm sure once the contract is signed that's it, I mean what on earth did we waste all those hours for in the beginning getting the contract right for her to strip it down? Again I obliged but only because I haven't had many calls albeit I haven't advertised properly yet and didn't want to lose them altogether.

Bear with me on this there is an end I promise.

Now the icing on the cake was when she asked me to mind the children in the 6 weeks for half rate for ALL of them. Have I got idiot wrote on my head or front door or something, maybe I should just mind them for the fun of it if that will really help you love (that's what I was tempted to say but I settled for) "No sorry, you are welcome to take them somewhere else for the holidays if you want and I won't hold you to the notice to be given as stated in OUR contract (for all its worth). We will discard our current contract and draw up a new one for September to coincide with the before/after school care and a deposit will be required which is NON-RETURNABLE if you don't take up the places or change anything within 2 months of starting the new contract (A tip I learnt from Rickysmiths I think).

She seemed shocked at my answer and it obviously hadn't gone to plan for her but enough was enough. The outcome was she wanted her way I wasn't giving it and so I haven't had them during the hols. Big loss on income but a huge gain in my confidence and people hearing I am not a soft touch.

A revisit to my contracts and fees policy was needed. I have put in the clause about changes within 2 months of signing will result in full fees still being
charged but do you think I should have a cooling off period after signing contracts or go through everything with parent then send them away with all the info on what we agree on and ask them to come back a week later to sign if everything is still alright with them.

I use MM contracts and had to use up 2 for the 4 children and feel they have been wasted, there's so much crossing out and initialing it looks like the lo's got to them.

Really need some advice here as will be putting my all into my job once September comes. Gave myself a little breather before starting full on so I could spend some quality time with my own children as I felt we were becoming strangers and I was just the home help. It was worth it though we are all smiling and enjoying each other again.

Please help anyone

Hi there it's me!!! It is for 6 months after the start of a Contract so if this lady had paid a Deposit she would have lost 2 days worth of it. I have four weeks notice to change days/hours where yes I would charge the full fee for the four weeks notice. If she now only wants one day I would offer no sibling discount. I only offer a discount if both siblings are full time.

Don't ever send Contracts to a client to sign. Two reasons. One they could change anything and sign it and you could be stuffed, Second if they sign the Contract in their own home there are very complicated laws regarding 'Cooling Off' periods which you wouldn't want to get into! As far as I am concerned the only place to sign Contracts is both together in your house. I have a four week settling in period at the beginning of my Contract which I explain is for the parents as well as the child. During the 4 weeks I will 'tweak' the hours if travelling proves they need slightly more or less but id they drop a day then the 4 weeks notice applies as does loosing that % of their Deposit. They don't need any other 'Cooling off'.

What a waste of time and effort I agree. I have been considering charging a £30 non refundable admin fee for any before and after school/TTO because in proportion to a full time under 4 they take up so much time. I would then have a £20 fee (non returnable) for any future changes that meant a new Contract, Letter of fees for Tax Credits or the production of any lost paperwork. I give my parents a cheap plastic folder with all their info in and I put spare plastic wallets in it and I advise they put all their receipts, letter, accident/medication in it so they know where there are.

With this lady I would phone her and say if she wishes to continue with the Contract then she will need to come and see you at least a week before the beginning of term to sign new Contracts for her new days/hours as she has changed her requirements so much and that you have revised your Policies so you need to give her a copy of them and have her sign for them. I would then take the opportunity to go through the fees and payments policy.

[mum67]

As this seems to happen a lot to us childminders I wonder if they get us to sign contracts with all these hours/fees and once they have sent it to tax credits and got their childcare element swoop on us to drop things drastically but still keep collecting their money from hmrc without notifying them of the changes. As they only have to pay it back so much a week if found out it would be worth it to them in the long run while we are just mules to help them cash the cheque...

Just a thought

[mum67]

Hi there it's me!!! It is for 6 months after the start of a Contract so if this lady had paid a Deposit she would have lost 2 days worth of it. I have four weeks notice to change days/hours where yes I would charge the full fee for the four weeks notice. If she now only wants one day I would offer no sibling discount. I only offer a discount if both siblings are full time.

Don't ever send Contracts to a client to sign. Two reasons. One they could change anything and sign it and you could be stuffed, Second if they sign the Contract in their own home there are very complicated laws regarding 'Cooling Off' periods which you wouldn't want to get into! As far as I am concerned the only place to sign Contracts is both together in your house. I have a four week settling in period at the beginning of my Contract which I explain is for the parents as well as the child. During the 4 weeks I will 'tweak' the hours if travelling proves they need slightly more or less but id they drop a day then the 4 weeks notice applies as does loosing that % of their Deposit. They don't need any other 'Cooling off'.

What a waste of time and effort I agree. I have been considering charging a £30 non refundable admin fee for any before and after school/TTO because in proportion to a full time under 4 they take up so much time. I would then have a £20 fee (non returnable) for any future changes that meant a new Contract, Letter of fees for Tax Credits or the production of any lost paperwork. I give my parents a cheap plastic folder with all their info in and I put spare plastic wallets in it and I advise they put all their receipts, letter, accident/medication in it so they know where there are.

With this lady I would phone her and say if she wishes to continue with the Contract then she will need to come and see you at least a week before the beginning of term to sign new Contracts for her new days/hours as she has changed her requirements so much and that you have revised your Policies so you need to give her a copy of them and have her sign for them. I would then take the opportunity to go through the fees and payments policy.

you made me laugh their Rickysmiths. I knew I had read something in one of your posts a while back and I shall be noting all you have said down and adding it into my paperwork.
I would never send out contracts to parents as that's something else I read about on here, possibly from you again, I meant send them away with an A4 sheet listing costs, holidays, days/times that we have agreed to for the parent to look at again at home and double check it's what they can afford and want. As we have learnt so many times what they want isn't necessarily what they actually need (they need the hours but want to pay for less or none).

I am taking on board what you said about sibling discount and will only offer it for full days with minimum sessions and holiday care from now on. Did I mention she wanted the sibling discount again with the half day fee for ALL, the cheek, so basically she would've been given a discount twice for the same care really. Have to get me much earlier in the morning for that one to go over my head I'm afraid. lol

You read my mind Rickysmiths. I have already contacted her to go through a new contract for September and will be asking for monthly payments into my bank to prove to tax credits or anyone officially what I get and a months fees up front in August. She can take it or leave it because September is my new start and the past few months are getting filed under "Put it down to experience and from now on listen to the forum guardians"

Thanks Rickysmiths

[bunyip]

I agree with Rickysmiths.

I allow parents to take a copy of the contract home to read, but not to sign, alter or mark in any way. That way, they can't argue they never had chance to read all the notes and small print.

As RS says, the only legally-required "cooling off period" is one you don't want to get involved in. The Cancellation of Contracts made in a Consumer's Home, Place of Work, Etc. Regulations 2008 were introduced to protect consumers from the likes of 'hard sell' door-to-door salespersons, but encompass CMs unless we get contracts signed on our premises. If they sign anywhere else (eg. their own home), you'd be required to give a client a 7 day cooling off period. You'd also have to notify them of their rights in writing or they would have a permanent right to give immediate notice at any time they like. If that's not bad enough, failure to make the client of their rights would mean you'd be committing a criminal offence. Anybody like a criminal record over the simple signing of a contract? Not I.

By all means have a settling-in period of a few weeks. You need this in case that darling child you've only met once or twice with mum around turns out to be the devil incarnate when out of her presence. This needs to be reciprocated for the sake of fairness, giving mum the chance to withdraw if they aren't happy with everything. But you can include penalty clauses to protect yourself (usually by way of a non-refundable deposit) should mum decide to pull out - or, in this case, decide to change the hours/days which amounts to a significant variation to the contracted terms.

It's a nuisance having to cover all these "what if?" possibilities, thus making things complicated for everybody. But we've had some local occurrences which prove the value of protecting yourself in this way. Sadly, some parents will take advantage of CMs' helpful natures. Locally, this has included parents signing contracts with more than one setting, then using so-called "settling in" arrangements as a sort of 'free sample' or 'trial run' before making a final decision and pulling the lo out of 1 or more settings who'd given them a place in good faith.

[mum67]

Oh gosh Bunyip I am so glad we signed contracts in my home and not hers as was previously arranged. I wasn't aware of the difference that could make.

Thank you all for your invaluable advice. I have reviewed all my paperwork to check everything is how I want it and that I am protected.

Also when a parent tells me what they want and we have gone through the costs etc I will be telling them firmly to check they are happy with it as once contracts are signed all fees will be due regardless of any deducted days/hours we previously arranged.