policy when offering 15 hours funding

[v 1461]

hello,
I am now offering the 15 hours free place for the 2,3 and 4 years old children. this is very new to me and I know I need a special policy but have no idea what it should say!
Can someone please tell me what this policy should include??
thanks

[bunyip]

Check with your LA. They will require your policy to reflect the rules under which they provide the funding. This will include things like: not requiring parents to take additional paid hours in order to access funded care; no additional charges for meals/snacks, drinks or outings during funded hours, etc. etc.

You may wish to make additions to some of your policies too. I include things such as: requiring the parent to pay me at full rate if I fail to receive the funding money (it wouldn't be the first time an LA went bust and couldn't meet it's obligations); I reserve the right to give notice if the family lack the commitment to attend (our local preschool has a lot of problems with funded children taking days off - it's the old story of people not valuing anything they get for free.)

[Mummits]

That's interesting what you say Bunyip about not charging for extras during funded hours, as I was present when our LA representative was explaining to a fellow childminder that she could not charge a top up on the hourly rate but could OF COURSE charge for any optional extras such as meals or outings. I guess the vital word is optional? The parent in the case had apparently offered to pay £10 per day to my friend to compensate her for some of the financial loss she would have from offering the funded hours and LA woman said this is fine as long as you make it clear that this is a voluntary contribution to extras.

[bunyip]

Just goes to show how the rules vary from county to county. With us, if the meal is provided during funded hours, then we're supposed to provide the meal for free. Otherwise, they interpret it as an unfair charge arising from what should be 'free' provision. It doesn't affect me too badly, as my regular fees are already inclusive of meals, etc. although with the funded paid at below my regular agreed rates, it could eat into my earnings (if you pardon the pun.) Fortunately this is offset by the funded mindees doing some additional paid-for hours, and/or only doing 1/2 days, so they are fed at home for the most part.

If it did become a problem, then I'd switch to funded 'sessions' with a lunch hour for which I'd charge a higher rate. The LA say this is perfectly acceptable. It does seem stupid though, to have to make things complicated for everyone, including the parents.

We're also allowed to do the "voluntary contribution" thing for outings. This is the same as schools do: the contribution is 'voluntary' but if one family can't pay, then the whole class can't go and everyone finds out who the 'culprits' were via the playground gossip coven. It's pitiful.

[blue bear]

Here funded hours have to be offered free with no additional conditions attached. So you can't say you only offer the funding if they take up x extra hours each week or that they must take up hours in holidays etc.

You can charge for snacks or meals but must offer the choice of the child bringing its own snacks and meals if the parent cannot or does not want to pay for them.

[loocyloo]

Here funded hours must be free of all charge. So if you decide to offer a session that crosses a meal time ... Then the meal has to be included.

Although I'm going to raise this with DO as nursery charge a voluntary fee for snack and those who stay all day at school nursery pay for sch lunch.

Some people just offer sessions say 9-12 1-3 and then charge a lunch club fee.

And like Blue bear you can't offer a place and insist on additional hours or holiday places etc. Although I'm lucky and the majority of my funded children do extra hours. But I can't charge a higher fee than my usual fee for those hours.

[Simona]

I have not ever read anywhere that cms require a 'policy' for the funded hours...where has this come from?
It seems to me that policies spring up like mushrooms in this forum when they are not really required
Cms can indeed 'advertise' for the free hours and mention the FE in her contract

Cms and their LAs will be required to have an agreement ...usually called 'Local Conditions of grant' which the cm must adhere too
One of them is providing 'clear invoices' to parents where it shows the funded hours are totally free

LAs have the right to 'audit' a cm ...this is to ensure the funding is going to the parents in full...there is no other reason why LAs need to see our accounts or books...if they offer cms a grant they need to know how it has been spent

Yes.... 152 LAs do different things...has this not been the focus of many campaigns ?
some pay adequately on time while others very much in arrears...some have own restrictions and rules...
Some cms have been raising concerns about the 'unequal' rules set by each LA ...and that includes the funding they pay to us which at times is pitiful
Some cms are actually paid above their going rate by their LA...therefore not affected and not really involved in getting this matter sorted

The rules governing the funding are set by the DfE...providers must not charge parents for anything during those hours...LAs are accountable to the DfE that this is indeed happening....the Free Entitlement must be free at the point of delivery for those 15 hrs.

If cms take a child to a Stay and Play the cm pays for that as she does for snack if offered.
Lunch is different ...if children stay beyond the 3 hours then cms can charge their normal fees and add lunch, dinner and anything they wish to

Hope this clarifies the matter...please do not add unnecessary policies to your administration if not required

[bunyip]

LA's are required to prove due diligence in their stewardship of public funds. I expect some of them might decide that can be achieved, in part, by requiring the recipients of funding to make a policy staement that they (we) will abide by the rules under which funding is paid. So the CM's policy could be as lengthy and detailed as:

My funded hours policy.
1. I adhere to all the rules, terms and conditions under which funding is provided.
2. Er........... that's it.

The debate about different LAs doing things differently is one that is never going to be resolved unless, of course, we want to go all Thatcherite and abolish local democracy completely, leaving everything is the hands of Whitehall and/or the European Parliament. It's in the same league as the debates about: clear rules versus exceptional circumstances; or discounted rail fares versus a simple ticketing system. ie. The moment you win a campaign for one option, a whole bunch of people will pop up campaigning for the other.

If LAs do things differently, there are grumbles about "inconsistency", "postcode lottery", "level playing field" and so on. If they all did exactly the same, then the grumbles would instantly shift to "lack of local democracy", "the need to base decisions on local conditions", etc.

So, if for eg all LAs paid the same rate for funded hours, there'd like as not be an instant (and not unreasonable) outcry from CMs in the London area and other metropolitan areas that they needed some sort of 'weighting' and they'd be a big national disparity over the level of funding in relation to CMs' own fees. Whenever a "how much should I charge?" thread pops up here, someone responds that the CM should take account of local rates, and no-one would flame them for suggesting it. But it's OK to criticise LAs for doing just exactly that?

[Simona]

LA's are required to prove due diligence in their stewardship of public funds. I expect some of them might decide that can be achieved, in part, by requiring the recipients of funding to make a policy staement that they (we) will abide by the rules under which funding is paid. So the CM's policy could be as lengthy and detailed as:



The debate about different LAs doing things differently is one that is never going to be resolved unless, of course, we want to go all Thatcherite and abolish local democracy completely, leaving everything is the hands of Whitehall and/or the European Parliament. It's in the same league as the debates about: clear rules versus exceptional circumstances; or discounted rail fares versus a simple ticketing system. ie. The moment you win a campaign for one option, a whole bunch of people will pop up campaigning for the other.

If LAs do things differently, there are grumbles about "inconsistency", "postcode lottery", "level playing field" and so on. If they all did exactly the same, then the grumbles would instantly shift to "lack of local democracy", "the need to base decisions on local conditions", etc.

So, if for eg all LAs paid the same rate for funded hours, there'd like as not be an instant (and not unreasonable) outcry from CMs in the London area and other metropolitan areas that they needed some sort of 'weighting' and they'd be a big national disparity over the level of funding in relation to CMs' own fees. Whenever a "how much should I charge?" thread pops up here, someone responds that the CM should take account of local rates, and no-one would flame them for suggesting it. But it's OK to criticise LAs for doing just exactly that?

I do agree that we can never achieve the same rules for the very reasons you mention but this is different from you what you describe based on politics

my personal view is some sort of 'common denominator' where LAs reflect govt policy with 'local variations'

Inconsistency is only part of the problem ...over the years we have had inequality and the setting up of a 2 tier system such as networks dividing cms whether they belonged to one or didn't
Those allowed to draw funding because they belonged to a network and those cms excluded because they didn't...not something other settings suffered from...never heard of a preschool or nursery obliged to join a network?

That has now gone ...only to be replaced by agencies...another 2 tier system which will create inconsistencies

I cannot imagine why some LAs pay more than the going rate where providers are actually making a profit from central funding ...against those providers who have to subsidise free education...it is a question of principle if public funding is to be used effectively...
I would like to hear of another country where the sector has to constantly look at sustainability like we do...

shall we look at Sweden as an example? settings are funded by govt, paid in advance to settings and no subsidy there or restrictive policies.

I have worked in both a preschool and as a cm and this issue has been going on for many years

[v 1461]

thanks for all your replies. I am from Herts and have now talked to county council about it.
I don't need an extra policy for funded hours but the contract must be different to a "normal contract".
In the contract I need to mention exactly which hours of the contract are the funded ones and which days and include some info about this scheme.
The problem is that I am not sure what I need to write in this " special contract".
It is quite new to lots of us I think and there is not much info about it yet.

[Kerry30]

In my LA i can download and print off a form which states days and times of funded hrs which both myself and the parent sign. There is also a contract about funded hrs stating what is required of the parent and the cm which we both sign. I keep these with the childs contract. I did send them to my LA once but they sent them bac to me to keep. Personally i tend not to take on funded children anymore unless they are already with me. Due to having too many that were bad at time keeping or just didnt turn up. Im losing out at the mo tho cos my full timer is now doing the 15hrs. So out of the 45hrs lo does, 15 hrs are at a lower rate than what i charge.! As for lunch/snacks, the lo comes with a lunchbox with plenty in for the day.

[christine e]

Just goes to show how the rules vary from county to county. With us, if the meal is provided during funded hours, then we're supposed to provide the meal for free. Otherwise, they interpret it as an unfair charge arising from what should be 'free' provision. It doesn't affect me too badly, as my regular fees are already inclusive of meals, etc. although with the funded paid at below my regular agreed rates, it could eat into my earnings (if you pardon the pun.) Fortunately this is offset by the funded mindees doing some additional paid-for hours, and/or only doing 1/2 days, so they are fed at home for the most part.

If it did become a problem, then I'd switch to funded 'sessions' with a lunch hour for which I'd charge a higher rate. The LA say this is perfectly acceptable. It does seem stupid though, to have to make things complicated for everyone, including the parents.

We're also allowed to do the "voluntary contribution" thing for outings. This is the same as schools do: the contribution is 'voluntary' but if one family can't pay, then the whole class can't go and everyone finds out who the 'culprits' were via the playground gossip coven. It's pitiful.

Think we can charge for meals for the 3 & 4 year olds but not the 2 year olds

[mama2three]

That's my understanding too Christine. Infact not only can we 'not charge' for lunch , but we cant ask them to bring a packed lunch either. This only came up on the two year old funding paperwork , not 3 and 4.

[hectors house]

One of my existing 2 year olds now qualifies for funding - I had a nightmare trying to fill in funding form yesterday - I rang up LA for help and she was as much use as a chocolate tea pot, child comes for 14 hours a week all year round - I decided that I am open 48 weeks a year - so I divided 570 hours by 48 weeks and came up with 11.88 hours a week, I will be working for 17 weeks of the funding period, so claimed for 202 hours - have no idea if this is correct or not but surely the LA should have a formula that we all should use.

And I will still be charging for lunch, if I'm not allowed then I will be putting up my fee for non funded hours!

[Koala]

surely the LA should have a formula that we all should use.

I think chocolate teapot is just about right.

[bunyip]

Think we can charge for meals for the 3 & 4 year olds but not the 2 year olds

In all honesty, I think it depends on who you speak to at County Hall. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing - and neither hand is particularly quick to pick up the phone.

[Mouse]

In all honesty, I think it depends on who you speak to at County Hall. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing - and neither hand is particularly quick to pick up the phone.

We're not even allowed to phone ours. We have to email them...that's so much easier for them to ignore

[tashaleee]

In all honesty, I think it depends on who you speak to at County Hall. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing - and neither hand is particularly quick to pick up the phone.

Oh we can phone ours... however 'someone will call you back in the next 5 days'.... and if you tell them not to phone on a specific day and time thats exactly when they tend to call you...

[Simona]

thanks for all your replies. I am from Herts and have now talked to county council about it.
I don't need an extra policy for funded hours but the contract must be different to a "normal contract".
In the contract I need to mention exactly which hours of the contract are the funded ones and which days and include some info about this scheme.
The problem is that I am not sure what I need to write in this " special contract".
It is quite new to lots of us I think and there is not much info about it yet.

All you need to do is add an extra paragraph in your contract or Terms and Conditions telling the parents you draw funding according to the 'LA Code of Practice'....parents never see any of the transactions between you and your LA

You will show the free hours are truly free in their invoice...make sure they keep a copy and you keep one for your records because that is part of the LA audit
The only thing you need to watch is 'absence'...some LAs will ask you to refund the money to them when funded children have prolonged or irregular absence...read the small print in your LA contract and discuss this matter with parents otherwise you may lose out

Each LA will do its own thing but the central policy is driven by the DfE ...one thing the DfE states is that parents drawing 2 year old funding should not be charged a 'registration' fee
some LAs may not answer the phone but there is always someone in the financial dept ready to take a call on these matters... DOs have nothing to do with this

It is amazing how the role of the LAs is supposed to have diminished but they still seem to dictate all the rules?

Parents who are entitled to funded hours have to search for their own provider in most cases and they have forms to present to us

For those drawing funding please keep updated because the conditions that apply to parents who can claim the 15 hrs have changed...you will find this info on your LA website...if not ring the Finances Dept and seek an update

[v 1461]

thanks Simona. I will phone my LA tomorrow as I have lots to ask