I was told you cant get "outstanding" if...

[Simona]

It say most unlikely not no.

Especially now with the changes to the first inspection being changed from within 6 months to 30 months.

I get if a minder had been minding for 5 days and had an inspection they would find it hard to give outstanding.

Minders on the fb page have been reporting back of outstanding on first inspections

I would agree with you that after 5 days it is unlikely to be awarded an outstanding but after 2 and half years a provider should be able to show evidence of outstanding practice
If outstanding has been awarded at 1st inspection then I would suggest Ofsted reword their document...maybe those awarded it were inspected before the 30 months changed in November...only their statistics will tell us in the end and those will not be in the current figures just released

JCrakers...I don't know what we should call the Oftsed fact sheets but they certainly change the rules to suit their needs as and when

[Kiddleywinks]

They are all valid points Bunyip but for anyone who is trying to find out whether outstanding is awarded at 1st inspection they are not giving the answer...

Well to be fair, Bunyip did point out that he got OS on his first inspection, so that answered the OP's question - it is possible - or at least, it was possible until the rules of when a new minder could expect a first inspection changed

OP, I apologize for going off tangent, but several people had confirmed that it is indeed possible as it had happened to them or people they know, but as ever, I feel, it depends on the inspector not the rule book, which kind of makes a mockery of the whole thing

[Simona]

Well to be fair, Bunyip did point out that he got OS on his first inspection, so that answered the OP's question - it is possible - or at least, it was possible until the rules of when a new minder could expect a first inspection changed

OP, I apologize for going off tangent, but several people had confirmed that it is indeed possible as it had happened to them or people they know, but as ever, I feel, it depends on the inspector not the rule book, which kind of makes a mockery of the whole thing

Yes I have got that message Kiddleywinks...many Cms are saying they did get OS at 1st inspection....I know that too.
My understanding is YES you could get it until very recently...with the recent changes Ofsted has been very confusing with this

It is obvious no one can say for sure and no point really in quoting Facebook to me as I do not go anywhere near that.

Yes I did get Bunyip was awarded OS at his 1st inspection he did not say the year or specify....so not really a reason to be fair or me being unfair?
I did ask if cms were being awarded it pre 2012 or now but got no reply...that should be the clue
I hope the OP has some idea of what to expect or not

As per usual I have noted it and will certainly try to clarify at the next OBC meeting for my own information...anyone who would like to find out if Ofsted are keeping to what they state in their factsheets or not ...or indeed if it is fair....can also do the same and contact their OBC rep and put the question there

Once again thank you all for your very useful replies
Happy Christmas

[Mouse]

The answer to the question of whether we can get Outstanding at 1st inspection is in Conducting Early Years Inspections updated October 2014
Paragraph 93 says no

Ofsted | Conducting early years inspections

I've just had a read of that and get the feeling that paragraph 93 has been added without anyone from the Ofsted factsheet team reading paragraph 94
I understand that under the old time scale for inspections it would have been more difficult (although not impossible) for a any setting to receive outstanding on a first inspection as they couldn't show progress etc, but you do have to be very concerned if Ofsted don't expect settings to be able to show that after 30 months!!

Post-registration inspections
93. Inspectors carry out inspections of newly registered childminding or childcare within 30 months of registration. These inspections do not differ from any other inspections of the Early Years Foundation Stage.
94. It is unlikely that providers will be able to demonstrate rigorous self-evaluation, a sustained capacity for improvement or the progress children make over time at a post-registration inspection, and this will have an impact on the grades awarded. Unless the provision has had to re-register because of a change in its legal status, it is most unlikely that the provision will achieve an inspection grade of outstanding.

[Simona]

I've just had a read of that and get the feeling that paragraph 93 has been added without anyone from the Ofsted factsheet team reading paragraph 94
I understand that under the old time scale for inspections it would have been more difficult (although not impossible) for a any setting to receive outstanding on a first inspection as they couldn't show progress etc, but you do have to be very concerned if Ofsted don't expect settings to be able to show that after 30 months!!

Post-registration inspections
93. Inspectors carry out inspections of newly registered childminding or childcare within 30 months of registration. These inspections do not differ from any other inspections of the Early Years Foundation Stage.
94. It is unlikely that providers will be able to demonstrate rigorous self-evaluation, a sustained capacity for improvement or the progress children make over time at a post-registration inspection, and this will have an impact on the grades awarded. Unless the provision has had to re-register because of a change in its legal status, it is most unlikely that the provision will achieve an inspection grade of outstanding.

Well thank you Mouse for reinforcing what I said below....in different words but exactly the same...makes me wonder why others did not get my meaning???


many will remember that Hudson made a few policy announcements via Nursery World and then the factsheets were updated once again very quickly to reflect the sudden rethink

Unfortunately for me ...and boring as it maybe ...I do read the Ofsted waffle and had read the particular paragraph you mentioned several times.... sometimes it does makes sense when one wants to argue valid points with the inspectorate.

Thanks again.

[JCrakers]

Post-registration inspections
93. Inspectors carry out inspections of newly registered childminding or childcare within 30 months of registration. These inspections do not differ from any other inspections of the Early Years Foundation Stage.
94. It is unlikely that providers will be able to demonstrate rigorous self-evaluation, a sustained capacity for improvement or the progress children make over time at a post-registration inspection, and this will have an impact on the grades awarded. Unless the provision has had to re-register because of a change in its legal status, it is most unlikely that the provision will achieve an inspection grade of outstanding.[/QUOTE]


So any new childminder who has been in operation for say 24months is unlikely to get an outstanding? Or have I read it wrong?

[Kiddleywinks]

Yes I have got that message Kiddleywinks...many Cms are saying they did get OS at 1st inspection....I know that too.
My understanding is YES you could get it until very recently...with the recent changes Ofsted has been very confusing with this

It is obvious no one can say for sure and no point really in quoting Facebook to me as I do not go anywhere near that.

Yes I did get Bunyip was awarded OS at his 1st inspection he did not say the year or specify....so not really a reason to be fair or me being unfair?
I did ask if cms were being awarded it pre 2012 or now but got no reply...that should be the clue
I hope the OP has some idea of what to expect or not

As per usual I have noted it and will certainly try to clarify at the next OBC meeting for my own information...anyone who would like to find out if Ofsted are keeping to what they state in their factsheets or not ...or indeed if it is fair....can also do the same and contact their OBC rep and put the question there

Once again thank you all for your very useful replies
Happy Christmas

Apologies Simona if I offended you with my 'to be fair' comment, I say that alot and no offence was meant

I actually find the conversation rather interesting, and whilst I appreciate you don't personally 'do' facebook, I have just posted a poll on the IC group about whether OS providers were awarded OS before or after EYFS 2012, or indeed, if any have been awarded since the introduction of the 30 month rule
It may make for interesting reading

[JCrakers]

Well thank you Mouse for reinforcing what I said below....in different words but exactly the same...makes me wonder why others did not get my meaning???


many will remember that Hudson made a few policy announcements via Nursery World and then the factsheets were updated once again very quickly to reflect the sudden rethink

Unfortunately for me ...and boring as it maybe ...I do read the Ofsted waffle and had read the particular paragraph you mentioned several times.... sometimes it does makes sense when one wants to argue valid points with the inspectorate.

Thanks again.

Simona

I know you are very helpful on here along with Sarah....where would we be without you
But a lot of us (well...me anyway) don't have time to read through page after page of things that Ofsted, D of E, Nursery World, Pacey etc etc publish. Especially when they change things from week to week. I know everyone on here, including yourself works long hours and when 6pm comes along I'm off......to bed......lol

As long as I keep up to date with regular courses and new info, make sure the kids are happy and developing well and I do all the relevant paperwork then I'm a happy bunny. I'm not into reading all the gumf published.
If I was paid more than the £6.30ph I receive then I might have the incentive to read through every bit. But some of us don't have the time.

I, for one am so grateful for this forum and the info I get from it and am grateful for people like you and Sarah who do read through it all and relay it back to us.

[mama2three]

It seems to me that they hastily revised point 93 following the remarks by Hudson in Nursery world , but failed to notice that this change should also be reflected in point 94!!

And back to the original point , I got outstanding after 5 months , but that was in 2010. A friend got outstanding at 1st inspection just a few months ago. So it can be done...but as is so often the case the inspectors vary so much in their application of the requirements. If they are following the guidance in 94 without applying their own logic then I can see why they may be reluctant to give the grade.

[munch149]

Personally I think getting outstanding suggests no need for improvement where as they want us to continually reflect and show how we can improve so the two don't go together. I personally am not worried about getting outstanding as think the only way to go from there is down. My furst inspection I had an inspecter who was well known to only give satisfactory to newbies hence my grade. My childminding support worker however said I'm working well above this at good with outstanding elements so explain that. They accepted me on enhanced provision which you need a good grade normally for so must be happy. Due ofsted now but off on maternity leave so looking like it will be at least 41/2 years between inspections as overdue now

[Maza]

I also didn't answer the OP question accurately then as I got OS before 2012.

We all go off topic (well I certainly do) and in doing so hopefully raise lots of other valid points. x

[bunyip]

Oh dear......... .............. I went on a message board and a riot broke out around me. (Familiar concept.)

1) In an attempt to remain on-topic, the OP asked:-

I was told you can't get outstanding if...It's your first inspection? Is this true does anyone know?

After 30-odd posts, I think we can now reply definitely, categorically, absolutely, er, not sure, dunno, maybe "yes" or maybe "no".

But at least we had a good time and raised some valid (if off-topic) points along the way.


2) In an almost-on-topic sense, I wonder................ does anybody want a forum where all OPs' threads have to be answered with a straight "yes" or "no" without further (sometimes off-topic) debate? (And can anybody tell me if I put the apostrophe in the right place in that sentence?)

Please answer "yes" or "no".

3) In an off-topic-but-somebody-brought-it-up sense....... a maths test for the over-5's.

Posit: A forum-user (for the sake of argument, let's call him "Bunyip") lists on his username header that he has been a "registered childminder since November 2011". At that time, all newly-registered CMs were required to undergo inspection within 7 months of registration (not to mention Ofsted getting in a lather to do them all early before we all went on our summer holidays and they got a backlog before the new regs came in.) Calculate which side of September 2012 the aforementioned Bunyip was inspected.

1 point for a correct answer, and you pass SATs with flying colours. (And remember the inestimable value of education, qualifications, training and the cry for all childcare workers to have a good working knowledge of maths.)

You don't have to be the greatest CM ever born to figure this out.............................

..........but it helps.

[natlou82]

Ha ha, I love this forum for the banter and the fact that many posts do go very off track from the original posts, always interesting reading and usually very helpful too ;-)

[Simona]

Oh dear......... .............. I went on a message board and a riot broke out around me. (Familiar concept.)

1) In an attempt to remain on-topic, the OP asked:-



After 30-odd posts, I think we can now reply definitely, categorically, absolutely, er, not sure, dunno, maybe "yes" or maybe "no".

But at least we had a good time and raised some valid (if off-topic) points along the way.


2) In an almost-on-topic sense, I wonder................ does anybody want a forum where all OPs' threads have to be answered with a straight "yes" or "no" without further (sometimes off-topic) debate? (And can anybody tell me if I put the apostrophe in the right place in that sentence?)

Please answer "yes" or "no".

3) In an off-topic-but-somebody-brought-it-up sense....... a maths test for the over-5's.

Posit: A forum-user (for the sake of argument, let's call him "Bunyip") lists on his username header that he has been a "registered childminder since November 2011". At that time, all newly-registered CMs were required to undergo inspection within 7 months of registration (not to mention Ofsted getting in a lather to do them all early before we all went on our summer holidays and they got a backlog before the new regs came in.) Calculate which side of September 2012 the aforementioned Bunyip was inspected.

1 point for a correct answer, and you pass SATs with flying colours. (And remember the inestimable value of education, qualifications, training and the cry for all childcare workers to have a good working knowledge of maths.)

You don't have to be the greatest CM ever born to figure this out.............................

..........but it helps.

No Bunyip...no riot broke out just because you went off for a short while
the posts here are relevant as was my question but you chose to add cold sarcasm and rather personal offensive remarks

your point would be very valid if people like me ...who you are clearly referring to in your roundabout sarcastic and offensive response...had the time to check every member's history, their date of joining and then sit here and work out when they could possibly have been 1st inspected?
Sorry I really do not spend that much time here for that type of research....I am surprised to hear you are really a fairly new CM and yet that give you the right to judge people you hardly know ??

Your last line is totally reflective of the tone you set ....the greatest Cm has not been born yet but some strive to offer the best we can against your constant attack on professionalism, qualifications, unhappiness at the fact we get graded in the 1st place, LAs' lack of any support and so forth...it can be quite depressing

Sorry Bunyip you are incredibly arrogant, discriminatory and your comments often offensive for no reason whatsoever and very targeted

Going off topic is something that happens often...it is a reasonable thing to do when you want to...sometimes....expand and use freedom of speech to express views
but only here in this forum members are told off and hands smacked and offensive roundabout remarks posted...it is very sad that it happens and is allowed to happen in the first place

Does it really have any place in this forum? is it really necessary and what examples does it show new cms?
I think we respect your views on everything you post...try to do the same without offending...I remember clearly the upset you caused a CM a while back ...she tried to tell you but you would not have it or accept you had upset her...I have never seen a post from her again
I do not intend to sit here, being bullied and take that rubbish from you and I do not fear whatever action the management may take either.


it is the season of goodwill after all...oh and I will not expect any 'likes' to my comment
I am sure you will come back with your lengthy reply but I would not worry Bunyip

Happy Christmas everyone

[JCrakers]

Oh dear...

I love this forum because I can come on here for loads of info. If I've got a problem someone will help me out and I can always get an answer to some weird question I've asked.
And I also love this forum because people like Bunyip make it a fun place to come. They lighten the mood (well...obviously not this time)

It a place to come where you can freely speak and as well as helping we can also have a bit of a laugh.

But if someone answers wrongly then they shouldn't be shot down with facts and figures....sometimes its taken a bit too seriously

[bunyip]

It's Christmas-time. You sometime get what you don't expect. 'Like'.


Btw, if anyone out there is listening, I still want:-

1. Snow
2. World Peace
3. A weathergirl.

Yes, Santa, I know you're out there; I know you get my letter every year; why am I still waiting...........

[Mouse]

It's Christmas-time. You sometime get what you don't expect. 'Like'.


Btw, if anyone out there is listening, I still want:-

1. Snow
2. World Peace
3. A weathergirl.

Yes, Santa, I know you're out there; I know you get my letter every year; why am I still waiting...........

Perhaps you haven't made it onto the nice list yet?

[Simona]

It's Christmas-time. You sometime get what you don't expect. 'Like'.


Btw, if anyone out there is listening, I still want:-

1. Snow
2. World Peace
3. A weathergirl.

Yes, Santa, I know you're out there; I know you get my letter every year; why am I still waiting...........

Thank you Bunyip...you did not disappoint!!

[bunyip]

I had every intention of 'letting this lie' ever since the rather dismissive post #13. However, I've received some off-forum messages (and 1 very supportive PM) asking me to respond to one allegation in particular. I shall save time by not responding to the usual tired, old, misplaced personal comments but (since I've been asked) I shall put the record straight on this point:-

I remember clearly the upset you caused a CM a while back ...she tried to tell you but you would not have it or accept you had upset her...I have never seen a post from her again

The implication seems to be that I hounded some sweet, innocent new CM/member off the site, when nothing could be further from the truth. Unfortunately that predates the available archive of posts so I'm unable to look it up (circa May 2014 IIRC.) In any case, that CM's threads were removed at the time, for reasons which will become clear.

She was a relatively new CM forum member. She raised a question with regard to her practice and a dispute she was in with a client. No need to go over all the details again here. Suffice to say, a considerable number of members took the time, care, and trouble to reply with good advice born of their extensive experience, much wisdom and sound knowledge of the regulations: all in the best interests of the enquirer. In short, she was told, politely, by dozens of members that she was wrong and various posts endeavoured to offer advice on a way out of the hole she'd dug for herself. The matter was somewhat confused by the CM having run a parallel debate over at least 2 threads, seemingly starting a new thread when things were not going her way on the original thread. It was also confusing because her posts were frequently contradictory and the 'facts' seemed to change with every new post of hers. I recall having only minimal input as it went on: the thing was so bizarre I became convinced it was nothing more than a wind-up-thread (but I was wrong in that regard.)

Despite the generous advice of many members, given out of the goodness of their hearts over something like 70+ posts IIRC, the CM 'took offence', purely because it was not what she wanted to hear. She accused members of taking sides against her and that they didn't know what they were talking about. She responded with ever-increasing rudeness. Still, some members with far more patience than I and unquenchable kindness, tried to caution the CM for her own good, whilst her responses grew even more unkind.

Finally, rightly or wrongly, my patience snapped and I waded in to tell it like it is (was?) I stated that I thought she was being selfish, ungrateful and unnecessarily unpleasant to people: totally undeserving of the time and trouble so any members had taken to help her.

I never saw her final response because the whole thread was taken down. It was later explained to me by someone 'in the know' that the CM's Parthian shot before quitting the forum for good was filled with some of the most horrible and nasty invective: toward the very people who'd tried to help, and toward me for highlighting her selfish ingratitude.

I make no apology in this matter, and stand by my decision to defend a host of dedicated members against that one selfish individual who popped up on the forum, acted in an ungrateful and nasty way, only to disappear as suddenly as she appeared. If I or indeed,the dozens of other members upset her then good: she deserved to be upset - in fact she probably needed to be upset for her own good if she was ever going to start to see sense. And I should do the same again if the need arose. This is too good a site for CMs to be shouted down in that way.

[hectors house]

How about we all move on now guys, the original thread has been lost and I need more people trying to help me find an answer to my car seat dilemma - see my post from earlier please and HELP ME