Over numbers?
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Thread: Over numbers?

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    Default Over numbers?

    Hiah

    I am not sure what to do, a local provider I see out and about on the school run has frequently had 8 or more under 8s with her - just one adult. I'm feeling rather new still but this isn't allowed is it? When it happened once I thought maybe it was just a one off, but it happened again yesterday. I know what school year the children are in so I know their ages.

    Would you say anything? I don't think I feel I could ask her, it feels quite confronational.
    Jx

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    How do you know for definate she is over her numbers? She may have a variation in place for siblings, continuity of care etc. there may also be another adult/assistant that you arent aware of.

    Just the other day I was collecting from school with 12 children in tow with my husband and friend (both registered assistants) and saw the chair of the board of governors deliberately stop, count my children and give me the most awful look. I doubt she has a clue the other adults are both registered assistants but what business is it of hers?

    I think if you are able to say good morning or have a passing comment with this other minder then you could easily slip into a quick conversation about numbers etc. no harm done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teacakepenguin View Post
    Hiah

    I am not sure what to do, a local provider I see out and about on the school run has frequently had 8 or more under 8s with her - just one adult. I'm feeling rather new still but this isn't allowed is it? When it happened once I thought maybe it was just a one off, but it happened again yesterday. I know what school year the children are in so I know their ages.

    Would you say anything? I don't think I feel I could ask her, it feels quite confronational.
    Jx
    Going over 6 under 8's is a big no no and if Ofsted came knocking on her door she would be in serious trouble. It really should be reported but the minder may know who did it so I understand you may feel awkward doing this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola Carlyle View Post
    How do you know for definate she is over her numbers? She may have a variation in place for siblings, continuity of care etc. there may also be another adult/assistant that you arent aware of.

    Just the other day I was collecting from school with 12 children in tow with my husband and friend (both registered assistants) and saw the chair of the board of governors deliberately stop, count my children and give me the most awful look. I doubt she has a clue the other adults are both registered assistants but what business is it of hers?

    I think if you are able to say good morning or have a passing comment with this other minder then you could easily slip into a quick conversation about numbers etc. no harm done.
    You cannot go over 6 children under 8 under any circumstances. It sounds like it was obvious the minder was on her own.

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    Can you go over 6 under 8 if it's a sibling continuity of care? Finding this all a bit confusing x

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    Yes she was on her own, as I have seen her up there with an assistant when there has been a lot of children. I know the children who are there as it's a small place I live in, and no there weren't siblings amongst them.

    I will ponder it further, thanks.
    Jx

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    Quote Originally Posted by watford wizz View Post
    Can you go over 6 under 8 if it's a sibling continuity of care? Finding this all a bit confusing x
    No you can never go over 6 under 8s even for sibling continuity of care.
    When someone tells you nothing is impossible, tell them to go slam a revolving door

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    Thank you x

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    No you can't go over 6 under 8 if your on your own at any time for whatever reason. I was just saying in an earlier post that if there was an assistant there that the original poster wasn't aware of then maybe that would explain why she was over her 6 under 8.

    Just something else to think about - the ages of the children may differ due to what class they are in. For example if you have 2 children in year 2 you could have 1x7 year old and 1 x 8 year old due to when their birthdays fall. X

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    You also have to be sure about ages, I have two girls at the moment who are 8, so I could have 8 children with me, looking a similar age (I don't though, not that mad).

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    My goodness...how can we, over a year after EYFS 2012 came out, still ask if we can care for more than 6 children under 8?
    The answer is NO...very clear on page 21 of the guidance
    The thread is: over numbers?...the question mark means there is not a guarantee of this

    Teacakepenguin....it is very difficult to offer advice/support in such a situation as we are not witnessing this or indeed counting the children...if you are sure the minder was/is over numbers you have 2 choices
    1. approach her and tell her you are worried because she appears to have many children on her own and you worry about their safety
    2. report her but you have no evidence and that will immediately trigger an inspection for her

    this is going to be another long thread about speculating on what we cannot see and what is clear in the legislation

    MTK...you say ''It sounds like it was obvious the minder was on her own''. ...that is not obvious to me or anyone else from where we are sitting reading this but the cm here who is worried can look into it a bit further...it is our duty to protect children so they are safe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    My goodness...how can we, over a year after EYFS 2012 came out, still ask if we can care for more than 6 children under 8?
    The answer is NO...very clear on page 21 of the guidance
    The thread is: over numbers?...the question mark means there is not a guarantee of this

    Teacakepenguin....it is very difficult to offer advice/support in such a situation as we are not witnessing this or indeed counting the children...if you are sure the minder was/is over numbers you have 2 choices
    1. approach her and tell her you are worried because she appears to have many children on her own and you worry about their safety
    2. report her but you have no evidence and that will immediately trigger an inspection for her

    this is going to be another long thread about speculating on what we cannot see and what is clear in the legislation

    MTK...you say ''It sounds like it was obvious the minder was on her own''. ...that is not obvious to me or anyone else from where we are sitting reading this but the cm here who is worried can look into it a bit further...it is our duty to protect children so they are safe
    I'm sure you didn't mean to sound rude Simona but you do !!!!

    The op is concerned so asked a simple question

    She is new and wants to check she is right ...that's what the forum is all about ...helping members

    It does not matter if the question is asked a million times or if there is a debate ...it's what we are here for

    Angel xx

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    You say "a local provider" - is she a CM? I ask because there's a world of difference between a CM making a choice (or maybe a mistake) to overmind and, say, the employee of an after-school business under pressure from her employer to break the rules. It's also possible she might misunderstand the regs. As you've sometimes seen her with an assistant, maybe it's a CM who mistakenly thinks it's ok to do it alone when her assistant is sick/on holiday. ?

    I think what you do really depends on the underlying reason as to why you're worried. Is it the children's welfare that bothers you? or the possibility of the provider getting into trouble? or something else?

    I'm not presenting a value judgment, just think it's essential to be clear about what you're looking to achieve in order to decide how you go about it.

    Is there a 3rd party who could be involved, such as mentioning your concerns to a local DO who might have a quiet word with the provider?

    As members have said, it is worth being as sure as possible about the facts on numbers/ages first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by angeldelight View Post
    I'm sure you didn't mean to sound rude Simona but you do !!!!

    The op is concerned so asked a simple question

    She is new and wants to check she is right ...that's what the forum is all about ...helping members

    It does not matter if the question is asked a million times or if there is a debate ...it's what we are here for

    Angel xx
    There was absolutely no rudeness in my comment Angel...just sound advice and to follow the guidance and possibly gut instinct if something is perceived to be wrong
    Bunyip also offered good advice which is very sound: asking for help to a DO if one available of course

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    Its a tough one isn't it...It's hard to drop into conversation 'do you know you are over your numbers'. I know all 3 of the childminders that do school runs at my school and I would find it hard to ask them if ever I suspected they had too many. It can either come across as a.) helpful and thoughtful because you don't want them to get into trouble or B.) Interfering and spiteful because you think they are doing a bad job.

    Do you think she had some Yr 3's who are 8? or where they all smaller?

    I cant understand anyone who would go over there numbers because its well stated that we can NEVER have more than 6 under 8 and that's never changed in the 6yrs I've been doing it. And to go out in public with so many people who could tell Ofsted and put your business at stake for the sake of a couple of extra children. Plus insurance will not pay out if something was to happen and if something was to happen and a child got hurt, the parent could sue and you would end up having no business and owing a hell of a lot of money.

    Hope you manage to sort something out.
    Time Out.. The perfect time for thinking about what you're going to destroy next.

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    Quote Originally Posted by watford wizz View Post
    Can you go over 6 under 8 if it's a sibling continuity of care? Finding this all a bit confusing x
    In a word NO
    I'm not paranoid - the world IS out to get me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    My goodness...how can we, over a year after EYFS 2012 came out, still ask if we can care for more than 6 children under 8?
    The answer is NO...very clear on page 21 of the guidance
    The thread is: over numbers?...the question mark means there is not a guarantee of this

    Teacakepenguin....it is very difficult to offer advice/support in such a situation as we are not witnessing this or indeed counting the children...if you are sure the minder was/is over numbers you have 2 choices
    1. approach her and tell her you are worried because she appears to have many children on her own and you worry about their safety
    2. report her but you have no evidence and that will immediately trigger an inspection for her

    this is going to be another long thread about speculating on what we cannot see and what is clear in the legislation

    MTK...you say ''It sounds like it was obvious the minder was on her own''. ...that is not obvious to me or anyone else from where we are sitting reading this but the cm here who is worried can look into it a bit further...it is our duty to protect children so they are safe
    Hear Hear!!!

    I see lots of posts on this forum relating to numbers and ratios. Some of them are valid questions relating to variations, including our own children whilst at school/nursery and reception age children for example. The one thing which has never ever changed whilst I have been minding (14 years) is that you are only ever allowed 6 children under 8 years of age. I find it very difficult to get my head around why it can cause confusion generally.

    Simona is not being harsh with her comments at all just pointing out that it is concerning that it is not fully understood with some people.

    The OP should act if she definitely knows the ages of the children AND that there was no situation which could be seen as acceptable. I once picked an extra child up who was just under 8 and walked her to her grandmothers on the way home from school because her mother had a car crash on the way to collect the child from school. I ensured the child was safe and it was the logical thing to do given the circumstances as the grandmother was unable to go to school herself. So, always check exactly what the situation is and if you are certain you have your facts right then by all means refer the cm to Ofsted.
    I'm not paranoid - the world IS out to get me!

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    Hi again

    No it's not a CM it's a nursery who provide before/after school care, and it's the owner of the nursery. I was pretty sure I wasn't barking mad but I couldn't believe that she'd been out with that many children, on more than one occasion. I don't feel I could approach her though, hence I wanted to make sure I definitely wasn't going mad. I don't know what a DO is, we have a support worker but the funding from them have stopped from county so they are being phased out.

    I wish I'd made a note of the ages, you're right whoever said there could have been old year 3s, I couldn't put my hand on heart and say there weren't. If it happens again I'll be taking better notice.

    Thank you
    Jx

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    If they are registered as a childcare facility, then look for their Ofsted registration certificate and that will tell you how many children they can look after

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    Quote Originally Posted by teacakepenguin View Post
    Hi again

    No it's not a CM it's a nursery who provide before/after school care, and it's the owner of the nursery. I was pretty sure I wasn't barking mad but I couldn't believe that she'd been out with that many children, on more than one occasion. I don't feel I could approach her though, hence I wanted to make sure I definitely wasn't going mad. I don't know what a DO is, we have a support worker but the funding from them have stopped from county so they are being phased out.

    I wish I'd made a note of the ages, you're right whoever said there could have been old year 3s, I couldn't put my hand on heart and say there weren't. If it happens again I'll be taking better notice.

    Thank you
    Jx
    Ah..that may change the whole thing altogether...in a nursery the ratio is different especially if they have an EYPS or QTS ...look at EYFS p19
    Hope this helps?

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