Over numbers?
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Thread: Over numbers?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by teacakepenguin View Post
    Hi again

    No it's not a CM it's a nursery who provide before/after school care, and it's the owner of the nursery. I was pretty sure I wasn't barking mad but I couldn't believe that she'd been out with that many children, on more than one occasion. I don't feel I could approach her though, hence I wanted to make sure I definitely wasn't going mad. I don't know what a DO is, we have a support worker but the funding from them have stopped from county so they are being phased out.

    I wish I'd made a note of the ages, you're right whoever said there could have been old year 3s, I couldn't put my hand on heart and say there weren't. If it happens again I'll be taking better notice.

    Thank you
    Jx
    DO = Development Officer, which is probably a very similar function to your local support worker system. It might be worth contacting them if they've not yet been entirely phased out. Sorry if the abbreviation was unclear.

    I thought the "provider" might not be a CM, as you say. This makes a whole lot of difference. It means the whole EYFS Statutory Requirements section (paragraphs 3.39 - 3.41 inclusive, page 21) on Childminders' ratios is irrelevant in this instance. The numbers allowed for other types of provider can vary depending on type, qualifications, and even time of day (!?!?) - so it's well worth checking their certificate as Zoomie has pointed out.

    There's a big chunk of regulations on this in EYFS Statutroy Framework, starting at paragraph 3.27 and going on for longer than my attention span has ever managed to accommodate. I daresay there's more in the Childcare Register regs and possibly The Children's Act, in the bits I've never studied cos they don't apply to me and I really don't need to go looking for a headache in my spare time.

    This is the main reason why reception class teachers don't get reported for "overminding" 30 EY children.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    DO = Development Officer, which is probably a very similar function to your local support worker system. It might be worth contacting them if they've not yet been entirely phased out. Sorry if the abbreviation was unclear.

    I thought the "provider" might not be a CM, as you say. This makes a whole lot of difference. It means the whole EYFS Statutory Requirements section (paragraphs 3.39 - 3.41 inclusive, page 21) on Childminders' ratios is irrelevant in this instance. The numbers allowed for other types of provider can vary depending on type, qualifications, and even time of day (!?!?) - so it's well worth checking their certificate as Zoomie has pointed out.

    There's a big chunk of regulations on this in EYFS Statutroy Framework, starting at paragraph 3.27 and going on for longer than my attention span has ever managed to accommodate. I daresay there's more in the Childcare Register regs and possibly The Children's Act, in the bits I've never studied cos they don't apply to me and I really don't need to go looking for a headache in my spare time.

    This is the main reason why reception class teachers don't get reported for "overminding" 30 EY children.
    Thank you Bunyip for reinforcing what I said in my comment previous to yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    Thank you Bunyip for reinforcing what I said in my comment previous to yours.
    Oh? I did?

    I certainly wasn't trying to reinforce any comments that may have been based on jumping to the rather negative conclusion that a childminder was involved.

    The OP never said it was a CM, and I merely did her the courtesy of asking for clarification of what she meant by "local provider."

    That's all.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    Oh? I did?

    I certainly wasn't trying to reinforce any comments that may have been based on jumping to the rather negative conclusion that a childminder was involved.

    The OP never said it was a CM, and I merely did her the courtesy of asking for clarification of what she meant by "local provider."

    That's all.
    Neither did I Bunyip...I merely suggested that it changes things because the nursery owner may have high qualifications and she is picking up full time children for what I would assume is 'wraparound care'

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    Quote Originally Posted by FussyElmo View Post
    No you can never go over 6 under 8s even for sibling continuity of care.

    OK now confused can you go over 6 under 8 with 2 childminders and 1 assistant working together with planning permission? Some one please tell me before I go and break the law lol ! Even though I read all I need to know on Ofsted web site, I come on here and get completely confused. I know for sure, 4 working together is different and need to register has child care on domestic property, which is what I am doing at the moment.
    Last edited by bindy; 21-11-2013 at 08:36 PM.

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    Page 21 statutory framework

    3.41 If a childminder employs an assistant or works with another childminder, each childminder (or assistant) may care for the number of children permitted by the ratios specified above22. Children may be left in the sole care of childminders’ assistants for 2 hours at most in a single day23. Childminders must obtain parents and/or carers’ permission to leave children with an assistant, including for very short periods of time. For childminders providing overnight care, the ratios continue to apply and the childminder must always be able to hear the children (this may be via a monitor).

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  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bindy View Post
    OK now confused can you go over 6 under 8 with 2 childminders and 1 assistant working together with planning permission? Some one please tell me before I go and break the law lol ! Even though I read all I need to know on Ofsted web site, I come on here and get completely confused. I know for sure, 4 working together is different and need to register has child care on domestic property, which is what I am doing at the moment.
    No need to be confused...this is what EYFS 12 p21 says about Cms and assistants...hope it helps?

    3.41 If a childminder employs an assistant or works with another childminder, each childminder (or assistant) may care for the number of children permitted by the ratios specified above22. Children may be left in the sole care of childminders’ assistants for 2 hours at most in a single day23.
    Childminders must obtain parents and/or carers’ permission to leave children with an assistant, including for very short periods of time. For childminders providing overnight care, the ratios continue to apply and the childminder must always be able to hear the children (this may be via a monitor).

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  10. #28
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    Sorry Smiley...we must have sent the comment at the same time!
    At least it is confirmed and will help Bindy

  11. #29
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    Yes nurseries have totally different ratios.

    When I have seven children on a Tuesday I often worry I will be reported as my own nine year old is tiny!

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    Quote Originally Posted by clairer View Post
    Yes nurseries have totally different ratios.

    When I have seven children on a Tuesday I often worry I will be reported as my own nine year old is tiny!
    Some CM can be real busy bodies, I'm amazed how many say in such a casual way" Just report her and if she is doing nothing wrong then she will be OK" Do they not know what stress that can cause? It will also stay on her records for 3 years even if nothing is found!

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  14. #31
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    Oooh thank you, no I didn't realise there was a difference. Having been involved in a preschool where ratios were strictly adhered to in the same way as they are with CM, I assumed that it applied to all under 8s. Schools still work to the same ratio when they are on outings though don't they? I'm glad I checked as I wouldn't want to get my information wrong and cause them a whole lot of stress as a result. Maybe I ought to try to talk to her, but she's a bit scary!

    Jx

  15. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by teacakepenguin View Post
    Oooh thank you, no I didn't realise there was a difference. Having been involved in a preschool where ratios were strictly adhered to in the same way as they are with CM, I assumed that it applied to all under 8s. Schools still work to the same ratio when they are on outings though don't they? I'm glad I checked as I wouldn't want to get my information wrong and cause them a whole lot of stress as a result. Maybe I ought to try to talk to her, but she's a bit scary!

    Jx
    If you do talk to her ask her why she is 'pinching' CMs work by doing 'wrap around care'?
    I bet rather than scary she is panicky if she is picking up all those kids and worried they stay by her side?
    Hope she's got a good missing child policy!!!

    That is what is really worrying me these days if nurseries and preschools will start picking up from schools at 3pm and then offer holiday care will there be less work for CMs?

  16. #33
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    Ha! Cos it would be less scary to ask her that than about her numbers?

    She is good with kids to be fair, very experienced, even if not necessarily everyone's cup of tea.

    It's hard in a small place, there are only a couple of CMs, she opened a few years ago and I think needed to target wrap around care as there's a thriving preschool already so the little ones are pretty well covered. CMs seem popular with people (I am the same price as the nursery) as there are so many more positives - home environment and the ability to go out a lot etc. I don't feel threatened by her in terms of business.

    Jx

    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    If you do talk to her ask her why she is 'pinching' CMs work by doing 'wrap around care'?
    I bet rather than scary she is panicky if she is picking up all those kids and worried they stay by her side?
    Hope she's got a good missing child policy!!!

    That is what is really worrying me these days if nurseries and preschools will start picking up from schools at 3pm and then offer holiday care will there be less work for CMs?

  17. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by bindy View Post
    Some CM can be real busy bodies, I'm amazed how many say in such a casual way" Just report her and if she is doing nothing wrong then she will be OK" Do they not know what stress that can cause? It will also stay on her records for 3 years even if nothing is found!
    I have to agree. I wonder how many of us would enjoy being forced to submit to an inspection every time someone phoned Ofsted cos they were unsure of the facts?As mentioned, it might be something as simple as an older child who looks young, or we have a 'variation' in place or assistant present. Do we really want to be reported and inspected every time 'just in case'? That's before we even get started on CMs/members who openly admit to breaches of the regulations.

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  19. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bindy View Post
    Some CM can be real busy bodies, I'm amazed how many say in such a casual way" Just report her and if she is doing nothing wrong then she will be OK" Do they not know what stress that can cause? It will also stay on her records for 3 years even if nothing is found!
    I do agree with what you say Bindy ...but think about this: often those who report providers are not CMs themselves but members of the public or parents who have either a grudge with a provider or have no idea of the EYFS rules....parents are easily traceable if they complaint about us but strangers are not

    I am glad we have clarified that in this case, being a nursery, the ratio may be appropriate
    Cms are vulnerable because our over 8s do not count in our ratio and that is where often people get confused...if I had a £ every time I was asked that in the past by a particular person I would be rich now...in the end every time I saw her I told her: I am allowed to look after this number of children!!!

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