Online LJ: Tick list mentality?

[moggy]

I have dabbled slightly in online systems and I have read recent threads on the subject. Something that is really bugging me is this, and I would be interested in hearing opinions (maybe I am misinterpreting what I see on these online systems)...

EYO/DM is not a 'tick list' of things every child should do. I think that is well agreed?

It is a list of some typical things a child might do at each age/stage, to be used as a guide. Some children do them, some miss some out, some do a few earlier or later but still are progressing fine. We should read all statements in an age/stage and see where the 'best fit' is for a child.

But from what I see these online LJ systems are based around 'ticking off' EYO statements, or linking obs to exact statements from EYO.

I only ever link an Obs to a Area and an Aspect, I never try to 'fit' an obs to match a statement like 'Repeats words or phrases from familiar stories' for example. I never try to 'stage' an obs to match what one of the statements says.

Thoughts?

ETA... are these systems pushing us towards a tick-list mentality rather than looking at the whole child and all-round child development?

[blue bear]

I think you are right I think you would be hard pushed to observe every aspect listed in development matters/eyo naturally.
Fitting observations to statements isn't my style either, all my learning journals are personal to each child so are slightly different with bits and bobs added which interest that particular child. Photos of diggers, bus tickets that sort of thing.

[sing-low]

This is exactly why I gave up using an online system. It was very hard not to make it a tick list.

[loocyloo]

I use 2simple which although is sort of online ... I access it from my phone or tablet, I then print it for my LJ and don't send it to parents. (Although I have seen I could sign up to do this ... I haven't)
I would like to be able to attach just areas/sections covered but can't; however I just use a 'best fit' approach (or hand scribble when printed out) As I choose what next steps would be and no list is kept of areas covered I feel it's the best of both worlds.

[FloraDora]

I use an online. I use it my own way so don't get absorbed into tick list mania. Just for guidance.

My main priority I feel is to support characteristics of Learning - if those are developed I find learning flows.

[clareelizabeth1]

I use online but with what I use you can make custom statements so it really is individual to the child as like you say the dm statements do not fit for all observations.

[mama2three]

with orbit I mainly link to either the coels or custom make a statement within an aspect and area .

[lollipop kid]

I understand where you're coming from, but if you understand the EYFS, then I just find that the observation I'm doing might cover off loads of the areas at once - for example, yesterday, the children wanted to paint at Playgroup, and all had a go, but were all doing something different with the paints. One wee boy just sat for ages absorbed in the activity, and I just sat and watched him. I got loads out of it by way of observation. I know it easily covered off one of the next steps that I was looking for (concentrates on a self-chosen activity for a period of time or whatever the 'terminology' is) but I also got how he was exploring the textures of the paint, sticking to his favourite colour, the hand he was using, squishing, sliding his hand, asking me for help when he wanted more paper etc.

I haven't written it up yet - will do shortly - but I reckon he covered off loads of areas of learning and it helped me understand his learning style (that is, where he is now) a whole lot more. (Under the old system, I found that most activities that I did covered all 6 areas of learning - e.g. "What's the time Mr Wolf?" game. I kind of miss the old system, but I still look for as many areas of learning in each activity that I do with the children. What I don't do is try to stage observations to tick some aspects that I haven't observed yet - it wouldn't be fair on the children as what they're showing me is that they've skipped these anyway, which is fine with me.

I'm sure each person will do theirs differently, but I try to use the same approach I've always used - it's just that, with Tapestry, I'm hoping that my next Ofsted inspector will be able to 'follow' what I do now! (Rather than the one at my last inspection who marked me down as she couldn't follow my written notes as I was between reports. I mean, who writes a summative report every day?!@!!)

Anyway, hope that helps. I'm looking forward to reading everyone else's take on this subject.

L

[moggy]

Thanks for replies so far, interesting to see and good to know there is some way to be more flexible in 'labelling' your obs.

[hectors house]

I use Tapestry and they are very much "against" it being used as a ticklist - when users have asked for a complete summary showing which statements they have used "ticked" they tell them that the statements aren't the "be and end all" of the EYFS.

I often find that in an observation I can't "tick" off a statement so I then turn to the COEL, Leuven scales or ECAT form, I still always write up an observation whether I can tick anything off or not.

[lollipop kid]

I use Tapestry ...

I often find that in an observation I can't "tick" off a statement so I then turn to the COEL, Leuven scales or ECAT form, I still always write up an observation whether I can tick anything off or not.

I need to have a look at using the COEL and Leuven scales etc. I didn't even know of their existence in Tapestry (or what they were until I asked the Forum) until recently!

[sarah707]

It's an uphill battle encouraging cms to stop using EYO as a tick list ... and the online systems don't help because you have to find a sentence to link the obs to and there simply isn't enough in EYO to do that.

I find itmakes things a lot harder and cms waste a lot of time instead of making 'best fit' judgements and moving on x

[lollipop kid]

It's an uphill battle encouraging cms to stop using EYO as a tick list ... and the online systems don't help because you have to find a sentence to link the obs to and there simply isn't enough in EYO to do that.

I find itmakes things a lot harder and cms waste a lot of time instead of making 'best fit' judgements and moving on x

I was just wondering if the problem lies with the mentality of Childminders, or that of the Ofsted Inspectors? For example, look at the descriptors for Good:

"All practitioners have high expectations of all children based on accurate assessment of children’s prior skills, knowledge and understanding on entry to the setting. Practitioners complete regular and precise assessments of children and use these effectively to plan suitably challenging activities. They regularly listen perceptively to, carefully observe, and skilfully question children during activities in order to re-shape tasks and explanations to improve learning."

Does anyone know what exactly Ofsted means by phrases such as "accurate assessment" and "regular and precise assessments"? How exactly do phrases like these sit beside us making "best fit judgements"?

(Personally, these exact phrases have been used against me in an inspection to downgrade the way I tried to show evidence to the inspector of how I used to observe, assess and plan for the children I care for prior to Tapestry. Interestingly, the same inspector also acknowledged that I clearly "knew my children" - I knew my children because I was using best fit judgements instead of tick lists! )

Just interested in finding out if anyone can answer?

L

[sarah707]

I'm not sure there is an answer - and inspector's judgements will always be based on their own experiences and what they want to see :/

xx

[lollipop kid]

I'm not sure there is an answer - and inspector's judgements will always be based on their own experiences and what they want to see :/

xx

Thanks, Sarah. You hit the nail on the head.

It's just the contradiction between the big O using language like "regular and precise" to assess what we do with children, who we are taught can't be categorised into tick-lists. We are also taught to keep EYFS paperwork to a minimum and focus on the children. Yet IMHO, the big O still expect to see reams of "regular and precise" paperwork plus tick-lists (sorry, I think they call them trackers???) for each child.

x
L

[Simona]

Tick list mentality?
yes that is what EYO is....easy for inspectors to use on the day they judge our provision in under 4 hours...after possibly 4 years since the last inspection!

[FloraDora]

I didn't show inspector reams of paper. Just used my iPad and my voice.

[lollipop kid]

I didn't show inspector reams of paper. Just used my iPad and my voice.

Glad for you. I tried a similar approach with minimal paper (just as we're taught to use the EYFS). Same system I'd used since my first inspection - had two inspectors that liked it/understood what I did and why. Third inspector said she couldn't follow what I did, so marked me down a grade (Satisfactory in 2013), that will now last me another 2 or 3 years.

Each to their own, but I for one have made the move from my old paper-based notes in each child's home contact book supported by tons of photos to Tapestry. I don't use the outcomes as tick lists - I try to do a best fit. I also try to still capture as many of the areas of learning in each observation (as I've always done) and I still do tons of photos but they are now on Tapestry as well.

(As an aside, in her response to my appeal, my inspector said I didn't show the photos to her as, apparently, I had told her they weren't relevant. I still can't believe she said that, as I share them with the children constantly, and am very proud of their photos and what they've achieved in each one. It came down to my word against the inspector's, basically, so I quickly discovered I'd never win and gave up wasting my energy on appeals and have moved on.)

Here's hoping for a better inspection outcome next time, now that I can show via Tapestry (what I hope) will be taken to be clear evidence of "regular and precise assessment and planning". But you never know - each inspector has their own agenda (saw your post on this FloraDora). I just wish it would be possible for me to get a copy before they next come!

Thank goodness that it doesn't seem to have affected my business one jot.

L

[Simona]

Glad for you. I tried a similar approach with minimal paper (just as we're taught to use the EYFS). Same system I'd used since my first inspection - had two inspectors that liked it/understood what I did and why. Third inspector said she couldn't follow what I did, so marked me down a grade (Satisfactory in 2013), that will now last me another 2 or 3 years.

Each to their own, but I for one have made the move from my old paper-based notes in each child's home contact book supported by tons of photos to Tapestry. I don't use the outcomes as tick lists - I try to do a best fit. I also try to still capture as many of the areas of learning in each observation (as I've always done) and I still do tons of photos but they are now on Tapestry as well.

(As an aside, in her response to my appeal, my inspector said I didn't show the photos to her as, apparently, I had told her they weren't relevant. I still can't believe she said that, as I share them with the children constantly, and am very proud of their photos and what they've achieved in each one. It came down to my word against the inspector's, basically, so I quickly discovered I'd never win and gave up wasting my energy on appeals and have moved on.)

Here's hoping for a better inspection outcome next time, now that I can show (what I hope) will be taken to be clear evidence of "regular and precise assessment and planning". But you never know - each inspector has their own agenda (saw your post on this FloraDora). I just wish it would be possible for me to get a copy before they next come!

L

Ofsted Factsheet 27 Jan 2015 'Reporting requirement for inspecting EY' is now available NO 150005
It may help us all.