advice please - when to call an ambulance

**janminder** · 09-09-2010, 06:57 AM

A fellow childcare worker (nursery condition) has been told they should have immediately called an ambulance for an injury as it was a serious head injury. The reason she didnt was because the child knocked under his eye which did swell and bruise immediately, but not his skull area he was never unconscious, could talk, could see how many fingers she put up. (also she had been left in the room while colleague went to the toilet and there were 9 other children and no working phone, ongoing issue). She carried him to the doorway and was able to get another colleague to fetch an ice pack it was then decided to call the parent and an ambulance was called after this. Please:

What would you class as a serious head injury

Do you think this worker should have left the children alone in the room to find a phone or call a colleague for help and then obviously as she was attending to the child they should call an ambulance if deemed necessary.

Masny thanks

**kindredspirits** · 09-09-2010, 07:03 AM

No I wouldn't have considered than an ambulance issue - 999 should be used for life-saving calls only, not as a precaution to cover your back. IMO if the child was concious and not delierious then I would have been happy to have taken them to hospital in a car rather than call an ambulance which could be delayed from responding to a more serious call.

**Tina O** · 09-09-2010, 07:13 AM

As above I would not have called and ambulance but would have sort medical help taking child in car. This situation seems to have a lot more issues, staff loneworking?, no phone?, those need to be addressed.

(Also think perhaps someone has been watching too much Coronation Street!)

For me 'serious' head injury would be anytime there was unconscious or uncontrolable bleeding then I would blue light, but lumps, bumps and tears, would either call parents and meet at medical centre or get parent to collect, depending on situation.

**RainbowMum** · 09-09-2010, 08:58 AM

What did the hospital say? I personally wouldn't have called an ambulance for this, I would have phoned parent and asked if they wanted to collect to take to Dr but thats it!

**Playmate** · 09-09-2010, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by kindredspirits

No I wouldn't have considered than an ambulance issue - 999 should be used for life-saving calls only, not as a precaution to cover your back. IMO if the child was concious and not delierious then I would have been happy to have taken them to hospital in a car rather than call an ambulance which could be delayed from responding to a more serious call.

I quite agree, if they remain conscious and there is not excesive bleeding then it does not warrant an ambulence.

**little_gems** · 09-09-2010, 09:18 AM

i had a lo that fall over and had a big hole through the side of his mouth. My husband was here whe's a registered assistant and i thought it was safer to ring for an ambulance and take him to hospital. so i think it just depends on what the situation is. By the way i had tried to ring parents and emergancey contact with no luck before i rang the ambulance.

**janminder** · 09-09-2010, 04:35 PM

Hi, thanks for your responses. Actually found out ambulance was'nt called as the mum was there within a few minutes of being phoned as is on holiday this week so was home and she took him to A and E. The worker left in the room was my daughter, she and the worker who had gone to the toilet have been given four weeks notice essentially to please the parent. Parent was'nt happy that my daughter could'nt say exactly what happened but as she says she saw him trip and fall forward but because of a unit in the way did'nt know what he knocked head on so could only put what another child and the child it happened to said and they gave the same answer.

She is appealing for unfair dismissal.

**kindredspirits** · 09-09-2010, 05:03 PM

your poor daughter!! I too would not take that lying down - you cannot watch every single child in a room all the time.
Has she been sacked BECAUSE she didn't call an ambulance or because she did not see clearly what the child fell on??
Either is no reason to loose you job IMO but if its because of the ambulance issue then I can't see how they can persue it if she was not in the room with a working phone (the nurserys responsibility) - she could not have left the room to call from elsewhere as leaving 9 children alone could have been very dangerous. IMHO she did totally the right thing, and I would have thought there should have been a proceedure in place for toilet breaks rather than leaving someone over their ratio.

**little miss chatterbox** · 09-09-2010, 05:10 PM

hmmmm sounds to me like they're using your poor daughter as a scapegoat.

I hope she does appeal and I hope she win's. The nursery were at fault and not her and they are looking for someone to blame in my opinion.

**sarah707** · 09-09-2010, 05:50 PM

There is nothing in the statutory or guidance requirements of the Eyfs about calling an ambulance.

The decision should be based on the first aid training your daughter received and what was said about emergency situations / head bumps etc then.

To me, from knowledge gained at my training, an ambulance would be called if a child was unconscious, lost consciousness, bled from the ears, appeared confused or not to hear me... those kinds of things.

A child who screams / cries normally, has a bruise or a manageable mount of blood and is comforted until ready to go back to play does not need an ambulance imo.

However it sounds as if there were other practices at the nursery which were not acceptable. Now if your daughter wanted to fight for her job and mention them, her job might not be very comfortable if she were to win - so I suggest she is very careful about what she says and does.

Hugs to her. She must be feeling awful and very cross xx

**Tina O** · 09-09-2010, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by little miss chatterbox

hmmmm sounds to me like they're using your poor daughter as a scapegoat.

I hope she does appeal and I hope she win's. The nursery were at fault and not her and they are looking for someone to blame in my opinion.

here here I agree..... nursery trying to cover their back maybe ?????

**KarenM** · 09-09-2010, 07:32 PM

When she was left alone were there other workers within sight that could assist her? The recommendations are that staff are not left working without being able to call for help if needed. If this was the case I would complain to OFSTED about failure in the duty of care. On what grounds is she being dismissed and how long has she worked there? If under a year, she legally has no rights unfortunately, but in her contract it should clearly state the grievance and appeals process.

**janminder** · 09-09-2010, 08:40 PM

This nursery has 'issues' and I and others feel that an opportunity has been seen to let staff go without having to pay redundancy. Numbers have dropped so they are not doing that well. Quite a few staff have left and not necessarily amiably even the cleaner walked out earlier in the year because of the way she had been treated and the staff had to do the cleaning for quite a while and even now cleaners only 3 days a week so staff have to do other 2 days.

The letter of termination of contract has come about because of this accident it states that she failed to follow their H & S and Child Protection Procedures in relation to an incident that resulted in a child sustaining a serious injury, presumably the incident was her being left on her own but he could have still tripped over if the other member was there and that she compounded that breach by failing to call emergency services for a serious head injury, but apart from the fact that she did'nt think it was a serious head injury it was under his eye if it had been a serious head injury the phone in her room doesnt work and she would have had to do what she did and that was call from the door for assistance. She has been there 4 years and has 3 working days to appeal.

**charlie potato** · 09-09-2010, 08:46 PM

Sounds like the nursery trying to please parent and daughter being used as a scapegoat.
my son ran into a drainpipe at school. never lost consciousness and was fine when checked by headmaster just a ginormous egg on his head (elephant man). I only took him to a and e when he complained of headache and funny eyes. I was happy with how his school dealt with it.
I would fight for unfair dismissal as it would clear her name and show the nursery for what it really is. She doesnt have to take the job back but it would have cleared her name.

Pipsqueak · 09-09-2010, 09:27 PM

Thats awful.
Get your daughter down to a solicitors asap.

**LittleAcorns** · 09-09-2010, 10:42 PM

No, I wouldnt say that was not an emergency situation!

My daughter fell badly in the playround landing literally on her head/face cutting her eyebrow open! I took her to a&e by car....she then showed signed of concusion but was ok!!

Like sarah said if theyre knocked out etc then yeah immediate assistance is needed!

Your daughter has every right to fight this!!!

**helenlc** · 10-09-2010, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by LittleAcorns

No, I wouldnt say that was not an emergency situation!

My daughter fell badly in the playround landing literally on her head/face cutting her eyebrow open! I took her to a&e by car....she then showed signed of concusion but was ok!!

Like sarah said if theyre knocked out etc then yeah immediate assistance is needed!

Your daughter has every right to fight this!!!

When my DD was 18 mths old she slipped over in the front room and cut her eye lid open - to this day I dont know if it was the impact of her landing on the floor or she hit the computer table which was nearby. I didnt see - I was in the same room but we dont always have our eyes on them.

I took her to A and E by car where they put steri strips on. Not once did I consider it life threatening and although it bled for a while, it actually stopped bleeding quickly than I thought (considering the gaping cut she had!

).

I would think your DD is being made a scape goat either to please the parents or maybe their superiors? If the practices adopted are that bad, maybe they are trying to avert attention by semmingly dealing with it before it needs proper investigation.

Your poor DD - I think she did everything she could possibly do in an awful and scary situation.

And I hope she gets justice too.

**janminder** · 10-09-2010, 03:45 PM

She had meeting with the owner today and has said she will get a good reference, the way he spoke was more or less admitting that losing staff is better than having a parent taking complaint further and I suppose bad mouthing Nursery which could result in lost custom. He said "what would you have done in my shoes parent crying etc" and he showed her letter from parent and said that he shouldnt really but wanted her to see what parent like, she wants to know how much compensation she is going to get.

Basically at the end of the day it seems to me and (apologies if wrong) but parent milking it, owner wants least fuss, daughter and co worker scapegoats. She has the weekend to think it over, and she is feeling so down and where as was fighting talk yesterday, is tearful and unsure she can take him on today. He has a law degree. Co worker was goiong to Citizens Advice Bureau today.

**Tina O** · 10-09-2010, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by janminder

She had meeting with the owner today and has said she will get a good reference, the way he spoke was more or less admitting that losing staff is better than having a parent taking complaint further and I suppose bad mouthing Nursery which could result in lost custom. He said "what would you have done in my shoes parent crying etc" and he showed her letter from parent and said that he shouldnt really but wanted her to see what parent like, she wants to know how much compensation she is going to get.

Basically at the end of the day it seems to me and (apologies if wrong) but parent milking it, owner wants least fuss, daughter and co worker scapegoats. She has the weekend to think it over, and she is feeling so down and where as was fighting talk yesterday, is tearful and unsure she can take him on today. He has a law degree. Co worker was goiong to Citizens Advice Bureau today.

Bigger they are the harder they fall! take him to the cleaners the

!!!

this is just not on, to not provide the staff with the means to do their job, then when an accident happens blame the staff is -----i'm speechless!!!!!!

I would be getting legal advise afterall something like this will follow her around, no matter what reference he gives her and being held responcible for something not her fault is c*** ........

**mama2three** · 10-09-2010, 06:05 PM

well there are 2 things to consider - the nursery are making a big mistake by sacking her - in effect they are admitting blame and are more likely to be sued , not less!
Your daughter could fight this and win..or she may want to consider asking if he will accept her notice rather than be given notice ...future application forms will ask reason for leaving , and she really puts herself in a difficult position - either lying , or putting that she was dismissed. She is unlikely to get to the stage where she can offer an explanation and will struggle to get the jobs she wants. By handing in her notice she can be honest!
If she is willing , and has your support , then I still think that appealling is the way forward ..especially as she can use what he has said about receiving a good reference etc in her favour...if she was truly in the wrong he would never have done this..

Good Luck x