Parents doing unregged childcare and the damage it causes!
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    Default Parents doing unregged childcare and the damage it causes!

    I am fed up! Does this happen to anyone else?

    Some people assume we pull in £7.87 an hour per child even if its for an hour. Where did they get that amount from? lol

    We know 100% now that groups of parents are looking after each others children and paying even as low as £2 but have the ultimate cheek to moan about us.

    We are registered and have done everything required of us, jumped every hurdle and through every hoop and this happens. This is why other childminders wont even try and engage with it. Why bother if they cant even get work. It makes me laugh when these parents fall out with each other and begin moaning about the lack of childcare lol.

    Rant over, least the sun is out again

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    Maddening isn't it. I had a parent round on Friday looking for after school care. At the moment her neighbour "is a childminder" but is moving away. She's known for 6months but only just started looking for alternative childcare for her child. I dont have any space until August but she thought I could just slip her dd in now. I told her that's not how it works. I told her August on the phone


    She wet on to mutter...
    "I can't believe there aren't more childminders around here...I thought i'd have no problems getting someone to have dd"
    "Cant believe no other parents offer it..it would be perfect for parents to offer it with children of their own"

    Some people think its the easiest job in the world. I wont be saying yes as I can see the problems it will bring. If someones had unregistered childcare then they wont understand my 'proper' way of doing things...like getting picked up on time and getting paid on time
    Plus she was half an hour late for her visit as she had 'lost track of time at the park!'
    Time Out.. The perfect time for thinking about what you're going to destroy next.

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    A friend currently minds a little boy and mum needs to increase days which my friend cant do. She contacted another childminder who had no spaces but recommended a friend. When the mum went to visit she found that this lady was unregistered and charged £20 full day , £10 half day. IMO she should be getting reported not recommended!! Id do it myself but have no details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mama2three View Post
    A friend currently minds a little boy and mum needs to increase days which my friend cant do. She contacted another childminder who had no spaces but recommended a friend. When the mum went to visit she found that this lady was unregistered and charged £20 full day , £10 half day. IMO she should be getting reported not recommended!! Id do it myself but have no details.

    At least she is cheap - you get what you pay for!! I cannot get over the unregistered care who charge a similar rate to us .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayse74 View Post
    I am fed up! Does this happen to anyone else?

    Some people assume we pull in £7.87 an hour per child even if its for an hour. Where did they get that amount from? lol

    We know 100% now that groups of parents are looking after each others children and paying even as low as £2 but have the ultimate cheek to moan about us.

    We are registered and have done everything required of us, jumped every hurdle and through every hoop and this happens. This is why other childminders wont even try and engage with it. Why bother if they cant even get work. It makes me laugh when these parents fall out with each other and begin moaning about the lack of childcare lol.

    Rant over, least the sun is out again
    That old chestnut again!!!
    Yes it has been happening and will continue to happen ...unless we do something about it...parents moan about cost of childcare and look for alternatives
    we moan about them doing so...what are we going to do to stop it? assuming we could.
    Looks like many here are aware of unregistered carers...it is actually illegal to care without registration over 2 hours.

    Not sure where the £7.87 comes from? not difficult to put parents right on how we run our business...takes just a few minutes!
    I think this is a problem that also occurs in other professions in life as people try to find the cheaper option.

    Anyone caring for children without registration must be reported to Ofsted....often people do not bother.
    Anyone is allowed to look after children for 2 hours ONLY without registration...it has its advantages but mostly disadvantages as there is no commitment

    You must have an OBC near you...get ion touch with your OBC rep and make sure this issue gets discussed

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    Some parents might think we get minimum wage per child, so £7.20 per hour per child, depending on our wage.

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    Why would we report an unregistered person to Ofsted? They have no teeth to do anything about it if we did, they can't stop the parent or take them to Court .

    No I think the best thing we can do if we know of such a person is to report them to HMRC. They are unlikely to be registered as Self Employed or declaring any income, they may also be in receipt of benefits and the only body that has any clout is HMRC.

    Also worth reporting them to the local Environmental Health Dept because they are unlikely to be registered as a Food Business. They could also be over numbers so worth reporting to local Planning Dept.

    Even if it does nothing great it may just put the wind up them to suddenly have so many officials sniffing around.

    Also we have to tell the schools that the children they are caring for and ask for warnings about the dangers of using Unregistered Childcare in their Newsletters and on the Notice Boards in the Playground. Encourage the school to keep a list of all the Registered Childminders who go into their school. It would be an excellent example to Ofsted of how as professionals we are working with schools and promoting the Safeguarding of children in the Community.

    We could also design a small poster about the dangers of using unregistered care and ask Libraries, Doctor's and Dentist's surgeries, local Vets, Shops to put them up to inform their clients. All promoted on a Keeping our children safe basis. Mention that it is safer for parents to always use Ofsted Registered childcare to keep their children safe and for them to be able to access the most help towards the cost of their childcare.

    Be proactive instead of ranting about it.
    Last edited by rickysmiths; 11-05-2016 at 03:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayse74 View Post
    I am fed up! Does this happen to anyone else?

    Some people assume we pull in £7.87 an hour per child even if its for an hour. Where did they get that amount from? lol

    We know 100% now that groups of parents are looking after each others children and paying even as low as £2 but have the ultimate cheek to moan about us.

    We are registered and have done everything required of us, jumped every hurdle and through every hoop and this happens. This is why other childminders wont even try and engage with it. Why bother if they cant even get work. It makes me laugh when these parents fall out with each other and begin moaning about the lack of childcare lol.

    Rant over, least the sun is out again


    I have to say if I am full which I generally am, I only take under 5s. If I have 3 all day I do earn more than £7.87 an hour. I only ever let my expenses be about 1/3 of my gross income and sometimes it is less so the other 2/3 is my income less tax and NI and I clear just over £10ph It wouldn't be worth working a min of 50 hours a week plus all the time I spend on CPD if I didn't earn at least that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickysmiths View Post
    Why would we report an unregistered person to Ofsted? They have no teeth to do anything about it if we did, they can't stop the parent or take them to Court .

    No I think the best thing we can do if we know of such a person is to report them to HMRC. They are unlikely to be registered as Self Employed or declaring any income, they may also be in receipt of benefits and the only body that has any clout is HMRC.

    Also worth reporting them to the local Environmental Health Dept because they are unlikely to be registered as a Food Business. They could also be over numbers so worth reporting to local Planning Dept.

    Even if it does nothing great it may just put the wind up them to suddenly have so many officials sniffing around.

    Also we have to tell the schools that the children they are caring for and ask for warnings about the dangers of using Unregistered Childcare in their Newsletters and on the Notice Boards in the Playground. Encourage the school to keep a list of all the Registered Childminders who go into their school. It would be an excellent example to Ofsted of how as professionals we are working with schools and promoting the Safeguarding of children in the Community.

    We could also design a small poster about the dangers of using unregistered care and ask Libraries, Doctor's and Dentist's surgeries, local Vets, Shops to put them up to inform their clients. All promoted on a Keeping our children safe basis. Mention that it is safer for parents to always use Ofsted Registered childcare to keep their children safe and for them to be able to access the most help towards the cost of their childcare.

    Be proactive instead of ranting about it.
    I agree with RS.

    On the point of the poster...... Although we don't have an official village CMs' group, the CMs who serve the village school did exactly this. We drew up a 'school-run providers' list, including the after-school clubs at 2 local nurseries. We did this to help us and to help the school, so they could refer parents to Ofsted-registered providers. We included the reasons for using an Ofsted-registered care setting. It also stated that the school does not recommend one Ofsted setting over another but does strongly recommend using Ofsted settings, and cannot sanction the use of non-registered or illegal providers.

    School were so pleased that we'd done the work for them, they keep copies in the school office ready to hand out; they'll give them to all the new reception classes each year; and have posted it as a pdf on the school website.

    Quite a few of our local CMs, across the village and neighbouring towns, meet socially though it's not a formal CM group. A few of us (and the number is growing) have agreed to refuse to sign contracts with families whom we know have deliberately chosen illegal care over registered care. This grew out of us sharing information on parents who'd left without notice/paying; been bad payers; or made malicious complaints against other settings. It came to a head when a local (and heavily-used) illegal 'childcarer' had to dump all her 'clients' after she was reported for 'looking after' at least a dozen children in the back of her uncle's chip shop (in the next room from the fryers through an open doorway!) Suddenly, registered CMs were getting enquiries from lots of mums, including some which had previously bad-mouthed bona fide CMs. Those mums got something of a shock when a number of us refused to do business.

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    The reason for reporting it to Ofsted is that it is illegal....obviously you are not bothered by it but other cms maybe.
    Do you actually know what happens when Ofsted find an unregistered carer? or maybe an EY team does?
    do you understand the implications behind unregistered care?

    Maybe good to remind everyone this is a public forum...what is said about the inability to do nothing if Ofsted find an unregistered carer is not true...look it up and see what the consequences are.

    Please tell us why would HMRC be worried about an unregistered cm if that cm is actually paying her tax? is that not an assumption on the part of those who think otherwise?
    so you would blow the whistle to HMRC but not Ofsted? why?


    Does any representing association have the views expressed here that unregistered carers should be left to get on with it?....I doubt it very much

    What has been suggested as being 'pro active' has been done over and over again ....maybe a little less prejudice may help and look at what 'ranting' actually means....look at evidence before passing judgement or criticism

    What a shame that such a serious issue can only end up with personal nasty comments...remember one thing RS...we may not agree but that also means respecting others' view without personal insults.

    Have a great day.

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    I also understand that the NW has another OBC planned soon and Sarah has asked for any questions to be put to her to ask Ofsted.

    Please Sarah could you ask Ofsted to clarify the issue of unregistered cms for the forum?

    Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickysmiths View Post
    Why would we report an unregistered person to Ofsted? They have no teeth to do anything about it if we did, they can't stop the parent or take them to Court .

    No I think the best thing we can do if we know of such a person is to report them to HMRC. They are unlikely to be registered as Self Employed or declaring any income, they may also be in receipt of benefits and the only body that has any clout is HMRC.

    Also worth reporting them to the local Environmental Health Dept because they are unlikely to be registered as a Food Business. They could also be over numbers so worth reporting to local Planning Dept.

    Even if it does nothing great it may just put the wind up them to suddenly have so many officials sniffing around.

    Also we have to tell the schools that the children they are caring for and ask for warnings about the dangers of using Unregistered Childcare in their Newsletters and on the Notice Boards in the Playground. Encourage the school to keep a list of all the Registered Childminders who go into their school. It would be an excellent example to Ofsted of how as professionals we are working with schools and promoting the Safeguarding of children in the Community.

    We could also design a small poster about the dangers of using unregistered care and ask Libraries, Doctor's and Dentist's surgeries, local Vets, Shops to put them up to inform their clients. All promoted on a Keeping our children safe basis. Mention that it is safer for parents to always use Ofsted Registered childcare to keep their children safe and for them to be able to access the most help towards the cost of their childcare.

    Be proactive instead of ranting about it.
    Completely agree RS

    We had an unreg CM around here, she was reported by cms and the EY team, we could prove she put up adverts in shops, £2 an hour, (yes you read that right) she regularly had over 6 under 5s and lots of after schoolers.

    Ofsted visited her but did nothing. She told them she didn't charge and it was under the 'friends' care rule (remember the two policewomen?) The parents admitted afterwards that they lied to Ofsted when questioned as to whether they paid, they lied and said they didn't pay because they were scared of losing their cheap childcare.

    Some parents will put their child's safely lower than cost of childcare

    So you are right RS educate the parents on what could happen with unreg childcare is a great idea.- no insurance could mean no claim for money to care for your child if they were seriously injured etc. Access to childcare costs like you say, plus lots more.

    Having said that I would still report an unreg carer to Ofsted because it might be enough to scare them off or make them realise they should be registered for their own protection if nothing else.
    Pauline x

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    Very interesting Pauline...thanks for sharing.

    I too know of person doing childminding without registration...that person has now been made to register.

    Ofsted cannot do nothing if aware of unregistered care...to do so would be a breach of their regulatory responsibilities....the email from Oftsed on this makes it very clear they would act.
    If we know that Ofsted have visited an unregistered cm we do not know what went on in that meeting, what was recommended or what actions were given....the rest maybe assumptions?

    I would also say that parents are well aware of the implications of choosing an unregistered carer....insurance, as you rightly state, is one of them but there are other reasons much more valid if we put the children first.
    Saving on childcare maybe another reason but it also excludes parents from claiming benefits such as Childcare Vouchers and accessing free education.
    2 hours are allowed for anyone who is unregistered...over that is not justifiable.

    We obviously do not agree on this issue but every opinion is to be respected.
    I will put that to Ofsted in June.

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    From an insurance point of view. This week in my local paper, is the story of a local private nursery where a 8 month old baby had a mysterious fall, and it was thought that there could be a possibility of epilepsy in the future. This has not happened, and the parents have been granted a payout this week, and it has taken 13 years to get to this point. The award also said that if the child were to go on the experience epilepsy at any time in the future, they could go back for more money.

    This case shows how important insurance is. With unregistered care, even under the two hour rule, what would happen if a child had a life changing injury.? Would anyone be able to afford to have a case pending for 13 years without insurance?

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    Slightly off topic from the current Ofsted/reporting theme but totally in agreement re the original posters rant...

    I'm a term time only Childminder normally but have decided to take some children on during the July/August summer hols for some extra cash before I start maternity leave in October. I recently put an advert out on the local Facebook selling site advertising some spaces for school children. I had a great response but pretty much every person seemed to think that I would be charging cheaper than my current £4 an hour. One person said she had 3 school age children and "couldn't afford the holiday club as they were charging £25 a day per child" I can't help wondering what she expected my charges to be? Another said that their friend normally had her two sons for a small daily charge but said friend was in hospital over summer so wondered what my charges were. When I outlined everything, she didn't even respond to me. So incredibly rude, really got my back up. I've worked so hard to get where I am, for parents to just assume I'm some sort of glorified babysitter with nothing better to do with my days.

    Soon after my post went up, another woman put an ad up about how she was available for "babysitting in the day" during the summer Hols, no doubt everyone will go to her as she'll charge next to nothing. So irritating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaybeaa View Post
    Slightly off topic from the current Ofsted/reporting theme but totally in agreement re the original posters rant...

    I'm a term time only Childminder normally but have decided to take some children on during the July/August summer hols for some extra cash before I start maternity leave in October. I recently put an advert out on the local Facebook selling site advertising some spaces for school children. I had a great response but pretty much every person seemed to think that I would be charging cheaper than my current £4 an hour. One person said she had 3 school age children and "couldn't afford the holiday club as they were charging £25 a day per child" I can't help wondering what she expected my charges to be? Another said that their friend normally had her two sons for a small daily charge but said friend was in hospital over summer so wondered what my charges were. When I outlined everything, she didn't even respond to me. So incredibly rude, really got my back up. I've worked so hard to get where I am, for parents to just assume I'm some sort of glorified babysitter with nothing better to do with my days.

    Soon after my post went up, another woman put an ad up about how she was available for "babysitting in the day" during the summer Hols, no doubt everyone will go to her as she'll charge next to nothing. So irritating.
    At least we know we are doing a proper job with insurance, first aid and professionalism

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    The reason for reporting it to Ofsted is that it is illegal....obviously you are not bothered by it but other cms maybe.
    Do you actually know what happens when Ofsted find an unregistered carer? or maybe an EY team does?
    do you understand the implications behind unregistered care?

    Maybe good to remind everyone this is a public forum...what is said about the inability to do nothing if Ofsted find an unregistered carer is not true...look it up and see what the consequences are.

    Please tell us why would HMRC be worried about an unregistered cm if that cm is actually paying her tax? is that not an assumption on the part of those who think otherwise?
    so you would blow the whistle to HMRC but not Ofsted? why?


    Does any representing association have the views expressed here that unregistered carers should be left to get on with it?....I doubt it very much

    What has been suggested as being 'pro active' has been done over and over again ....maybe a little less prejudice may help and look at what 'ranting' actually means....look at evidence before passing judgement or criticism

    What a shame that such a serious issue can only end up with personal nasty comments...remember one thing RS...we may not agree but that also means respecting others' view without personal insults.

    Have a great day.
    You have a way with words don't you Simona!! Ofsted have no relationship with people not registered with them so it is my belief they can't do anything about unregistered childminers so there is no point in wasting their time by contacting them. If you know otherwise then perhaps instead of making such comments you could actually tell us what they can do about unregistered minders we would all be interested. Though I am sure if there was why do we have so many of them? I am well aware of all the implications of being unregistered as I am sure you know and does it bother me? No from a purely business point of view, there are black markets in everything. Yes from a child protection point of view, of course which is why I talked about the posters as a way of bringing to the notice of as many parents as possible the importance of using Ofsted Registered childcare and then the more that do the less un registered people will survive.

    I suggest HMRC because the chances are if someone isn't registered they are probabaly not registered with HMRC as Self Employed and that is something HMRC will do something about.

    The same with Environmental Health we have to be registered with them, indeed Ofsted now send new childminder's details to the direct and if they are providing snacks etc then they need to be registered if they are not Ofsted Reg then they are unlikely to be registered and there are fines attached to both this and HMRC if you are found to not be doing the correct thing.

    I do know this is a public forum and I don't believe I have written anything that I shouldn't have done. Personal nasty comments? I don't believe I have made any have I ?

    Maybe it would have been kinder of you to enlighten us all properly of the facts regarding Ofsted and unregistered carers instead of telling us there is information but not telling us what it is or giving a link to it which isn't very helpful is it. You seem very quick to judge but very limited on solid information, indeed it might be better to to comment if you don't want to share information.?
    Last edited by rickysmiths; 13-05-2016 at 07:32 PM.

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    .....................
    Last edited by rickysmiths; 13-05-2016 at 07:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k1rstie View Post
    From an insurance point of view. This week in my local paper, is the story of a local private nursery where a 8 month old baby had a mysterious fall, and it was thought that there could be a possibility of epilepsy in the future. This has not happened, and the parents have been granted a payout this week, and it has taken 13 years to get to this point. The award also said that if the child were to go on the experience epilepsy at any time in the future, they could go back for more money.

    This case shows how important insurance is. With unregistered care, even under the two hour rule, what would happen if a child had a life changing injury.? Would anyone be able to afford to have a case pending for 13 years without insurance?
    They would have to claim on the PLI bit of the persons Home Insurance though if they got a wiff of it being a business I doubt it would be covered. So parents could sue and if the person owned their home they could risk loosing it to pay any compensation and Court Costs. That is why we have PLI insurance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    The reason for reporting it to Ofsted is that it is illegal....obviously you are not bothered by it but other cms maybe.
    Do you actually know what happens when Ofsted find an unregistered carer? or maybe an EY team does?
    do you understand the implications behind unregistered care?

    Maybe good to remind everyone this is a public forum...what is said about the inability to do nothing if Ofsted find an unregistered carer is not true...look it up and see what the consequences are.

    Please tell us why would HMRC be worried about an unregistered cm if that cm is actually paying her tax? is that not an assumption on the part of those who think otherwise?
    so you would blow the whistle to HMRC but not Ofsted? why?


    Does any representing association have the views expressed here that unregistered carers should be left to get on with it?....I doubt it very much

    What has been suggested as being 'pro active' has been done over and over again ....maybe a little less prejudice may help and look at what 'ranting' actually means....look at evidence before passing judgement or criticism

    What a shame that such a serious issue can only end up with personal nasty comments...remember one thing RS...we may not agree but that also means respecting others' view without personal insults.

    Have a great day.
    I agree, in principle, that unregistered 'childminders' should be reported if we have good reason to believe they are operating illegally. And let's all remember that unregistered care is not necessarily illegal.

    But I have to agree with Rickysmiths as to how ineffective reporting can be. I wouldn't be the least surprised to learn that Ofsted are inconsistent and that there may be wide regional variations in their response to complaints. So at least two cheers to Ofsted if they are shutting down and prosecuting every illegal carer in Simona's area. But I'll reserve the third cheer for when they do anything effective in my area.

    There are 6 registered settings which drop-off/collect from our village school, of which 4 are CMs. According to the long-serving CM, over the past (roughly) 20 years, this figure has always been outnumbered by non-registered minders. Where clear evidence existed that they were operating illegally (ie. over the 2 hour rule, etc.) numerous illegal minders have been reported to Ofsted.

    The most Ofsted have done is to phone them and ask a few questions. These people are not stupid: they know exactly how the rules work, how to break those rules and how to have their answers ready. So they give the predictable 'Bravo Sierra' about "not for money", "favour for friend", "mutual babysitting", "only for an hour or 2" etc. etc. etc.

    How do we know this? Because some of them laugh in our faces and brag about it afterwards.

    Incidentally, I mentioned the woman who was minding in her uncle's chippy. She wasn't stopped by Ofsted. Her uncle put a stop to it when word got out because he feared a visit from environmental health and trading standards - not Ofsted.

    I can see how whistle-blowing to HMRC may actually be rather effective. They do often take action where other bodies don't. I've had a couple of occasions where I've moved out of rented accommodation and the landlord has tried to steal (sorry, "withhold") my deposit. I simply threatened to tell HMRC they'd been renting the property "off the record" and hey presto, the bunyip gets his deposit back. So HMRC clearly carry at least some sort of threat to the unlawful operators.

    I don't think anyone has said that "any representing association have the views expressed here that unregistered carers should be left to get on with it". Then again, pacey et al are not the ones left with the worry when the reporting is met with tit-for-tat malicious complaints. |Frinstance, I know of one local CMs' group which reported a few unregistered minders and within days there were malicious complaints against seven CMs.

    Now I realise I'm saying this on a public forum, so anyone can read it. But I don't have a problem with speaking the truth, albeit an uncomfortable truth. If you or anyone else disagrees, no problem, it won't alter my level of respect for you/they in any way whatsoever.

    But please be fair on RS. I am really at a total loss to see how anything in her posts could reasonably be construed as "personal", "nasty", or "insults".

  30. Likes rickysmiths, Pauline liked this post
 

 
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