Variations...that old chestnut!!
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    If cms were to ring the DfE all the ins and outs of CMs ratios would be explained....their emails to me make it very clear what Cms can do

    I am unclear why cms approach you and not those who can sort this matter....were does the EYFS not mention overlap?

    Do you recall Truss's statement about cms and 'overlap' just before the EYFS was updated in 2012?...I do and somewhere in the archives you will find it for reference

    I have spoken to Ofsted several times ...and DfE at length and also inspectors themselves and they have confirmed cms have been downgraded at inspection because the care of all children was the issue...not the variations itself....please get that checked

    I think it is time to stop confusing cms about this ratio saga....here in this Forum is the only place I read confusing advice, cms who give up considering the ratio because Ofsted will not agree...where doe sthe EYFS say so?
    there are cms who have used the ratio properly and kept their grades

    Rick...you said you would continue lobbying Ofsted ....maybe you could contact Gill Jones now and put the case to her , after all Nick Hudson did not really make this issue clearer....or you could encourage members here to attend OBC and put the question to Ofsted themselves.

    I am unclear why cms do not direct their worries to DfE or Ofsted when ratios are causing them anxiety, worry and confusion....those are the official places to get clarification

    Once again get clarification as it is not a case of the EYFS wording...it is a question of children receiving good care....check it out

    I am absolutely clear on ratios...when I read comments here is enough to cause confusion even to those who have no problem with this issue...time to sort it out!
    I think we will have to agree to disagree. You are allowed a max of 3 under 5. How does that mean you can take on a fourth? Where is the exceptional circumstance? That fourth child doesn't exist as far as your business is concerned. Continuity of care makes sense because you are preventing upheaval for a settled child at your setting. An unrelated fourth child finds an alternative childminder with space in their under 5's.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    I think we will have to agree to disagree. You are allowed a max of 3 under 5. How does that mean you can take on a fourth? Where is the exceptional circumstance? That fourth child doesn't exist as far as your business is concerned. Continuity of care makes sense because you are preventing upheaval for a settled child at your setting. An unrelated fourth child finds an alternative childminder with space in their under 5's.
    I don't think it is a question of agree/disagree but to interpret the EYFS correctly and that is why I keep saying contact DfE or attend OBC to put questions to them directly.
    Each case is different to the cm it applies to and the family and circumstances.

  4. #23
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    Childminders come to admin because we know the right answers...

    They don't go to Ofsted because Ofsted do not give answers... they are referred back to the Eyfs.

    They don't go to DfE because DfE have provided guidance and that's all they will say on the matter.

    Admin have spoken to DfE and Ofsted about variations at length - and raised the issues through the Ofsted Big Conversation.

    The Foundation Years advice was provided as a direct result of OBC lobbying for more guidance.

    Admin on this group will not give advice to our members that will potentially lead them to being downgraded for over-minding. It is not our registrations at risk if the wrong advice is followed.

    We refer to this guidance - Frequently Asked Questions.

    We refer to the Eyfs - EYFS Statutory Framework

    We also have other letters from Ofsted on our Facebook group which are useful for reference.

    We will never tell a colleague to do something we know is wrong - and taking on a new child to then have 4 under 5 when the new child is new business is wrong.

    I hope this clarifies the situation. Thank you.

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  6. #24
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    I have a friend who recently took a new child on. I was asked to take the child, but I had 3 children over some of the required days, so I did not have a space, and declined.

    I said that I didn't know she had a space. She replied that she didn't really. She implied that the girl started on the Thursday on the first week, ( when she did have a proper space), and then started two weeks later for 5 days on continuity of care! Yeah, right!!!

    I think this 'continuity of care' change happens a lot, and is helped when your friends are doing it as well.

  7. #25
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    The people who know the right answers are the DfE....who write the EYFS... and also Ofsted because they inspect and judge.

    Contrary to your comment Sarah...Ofsted have helped to sort this out several times and Ofsted Gill Jones has intervened too.
    I have been given plenty of answers which has made ratios very clear since 2012

    The DfE have done the same...extensive email communication proves that ratios are really clear if cms read and understand the wording.
    I have not heard from one cm here who has tried to contact the DfE....or the childcare minister? or 4 Children who publish information on behalf of the DfE?

    I also would expect an inspector to know about ratios....having asked I got a reply that confirmed both Ofsted and DfE statements.

    Admin are not qualified to tell cms when ratios can be applied...that is up to each individual cm to understand and then prove to Ofsted their reasons and prove that all children are receiving the same care.

    Questions have been put to Ofsted at the London OBC too....your area is not the only OBC attended where the issue is raised

    While I understand that cms are careful when applying changes to their number ...this site seems to add to the confusion...I find the advice confusing at times.

    So my advice to cms is if you are not sure ...check it with the right people, your association and then the decision is yours.

    Good luck!

  8. #26
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    just to throw something else in im sure people abuse the continuity of care thing all the time if u have 2 eyfs spaces and take ona 3rd child whose parent for example is pregnant and u know in the future they will put them with u which wil take u over your 3 under 5 even tho its sibling exception surely you should say no in the first place to first child?

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    But, the problem I have is I'm not taking on a 4th. I've got two equally part time enquiries. 1 parent wants 8-1pm and the other wants 12-5pm. It should be simple but its not.

    It should be easy to have an overlap of just an hour when my friend down the road has 4 mindees for 40hrs. I'm confident that for that hour I can offer care to all but the rules don't allow.

    I'm not doing it for the money as there seems to be a lot of enquiries out there atm....So, I shall be turning both away and waiting for a full-timer. The only loss is on the parent who will find it hard to find a space as we are all full.

    (The afterschool club has just filled their last two spaces for Sept!!! That's how busy we all are around here.)
    Time Out.. The perfect time for thinking about what you're going to destroy next.

  10. #28
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    I have decided (and this is my decision and I'm not endorsing that others follow me) that I will welcome back a little girl who went to India for 4 months for the winter, I have filled her space with a baby as I wasn't paid a retainer, but the mum has asked if she can return in 3 weeks time as while they have been away the parents have separated and this little girl will need some stability in her life when she returns. This will mean that I will have 4 children on a Monday & Friday and I am prepared to face the consequences if there are any as if many will remember 2 years ago if we hadn't opposed it in Liz Truss "More Great Childcare" we were going to be allowed to have 4 children under 5.

    I am part of a very successful network where parents can post an enquiry on our website asking for childcare - we are currently getting 10 enquiries a month and we are all full - what are parent's supposed to do?

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  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by hectors house View Post
    if many will remember 2 years ago if we hadn't opposed it in Liz Truss "More Great Childcare" we were going to be allowed to have 4 children under 5.
    I didn't oppose it! I was one of the very few who was looking forward to being allowed 4 under 5s and was bitterly disappointed when the decision was overturned.

    I do wonder if they'll have to reconsider it when the new 30 hours of funding comes into force.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCrakers View Post
    But, the problem I have is I'm not taking on a 4th. I've got two equally part time enquiries. 1 parent wants 8-1pm and the other wants 12-5pm. It should be simple but its not. It should be easy to have an overlap of just an hour when my friend down the road has 4 mindees for 40hrs. I'm confident that for that hour I can offer care to all but the rules don't allow. I'm not doing it for the money as there seems to be a lot of enquiries out there atm....So, I shall be turning both away and waiting for a full-timer. The only loss is on the parent who will find it hard to find a space as we are all full. (The afterschool club has just filled their last two spaces for Sept!!! That's how busy we all are around here.)
    How many kids can an after school club take on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mumofone View Post
    How many kids can an after school club take on?
    I'm not sure...we have 2 afterschool clubs. They are both nurseries, one picks up about 7 children a night in a van and the other is held in the school hall. They probably have about 15-25 spaces maybe?
    I had a Mum round here last week looking for afterschool care for her 2 children from Sept. I couldn't give an answer until April (school decisions) She was happy to be put on my waiting list until April but she then rang the afterschool club and they said she had taken the last two spaces....so she was lucky...others, who have left it too late, wont be as lucky.
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    Jcrackers, I would say yes and just RA it. Or ask the morning one if they could collect at 12.30 instead then it only half n hour like hectors house said what she has chosen to do isn't allowed but she is doing it (as would I ) we are only human and have to try make the right decisions for ourselves and the children x

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    I didn't oppose it! I was one of the very few who was looking forward to being allowed 4 under 5s and was bitterly disappointed when the decision was overturned.

    I do wonder if they'll have to reconsider it when the new 30 hours of funding comes into force.
    I did oppose it but only because the Nursery ratios were going to change too - to something ridiculous meaning that there wouldn't have been any children left for childminders to mind. I am quite capable of managing 4 children under 5, providing of course that it's the right combination of children - as sometimes 4 mixed ages of children can be easier than 2 under 18 months!

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  19. #34
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    May I ask once again where does it say cms cannot overlap....or iwhere does it say it is against the rules?
    I just want to be clear where cms are coming from when I make more enquiries
    Cms must look at their registration certificate which will say a cm can care for 6 children under 8 etc etc....then look at EYFS carefully

    Has anyone found Truss' speech on cms overlap? Sorry had no time today as Ofsted has decided to update half their guidance and have been looking at that
    Continuity of care...how can it be abused if the ratio falls within the exceptional circumstances?

    Seems to me this issue is going to last longer than the 100 years war!
    On we soldier...more questions to ask! Worth trying the DFE again I suppose....better look at those dozen of emails I got with reams of information!
    Last edited by Simona; 29-02-2016 at 08:17 PM.

  20. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by hectors house View Post
    I did oppose it but only because the Nursery ratios were going to change too - to something ridiculous meaning that there wouldn't have been any children left for childminders to mind. I am quite capable of managing 4 children under 5, providing of course that it's the right combination of children - as sometimes 4 mixed ages of children can be easier than 2 under 18 months!
    There will always be plenty of children for cms....due to the acute shortage in LAs, the govt's own made mess and the 30 hours...without cms the rest of the sector will struggle to deliver it....I would bet a few ££££ on that!

    The ratio for nurseries has not changed ....it is 1:13 with a graduate but nurseries are reluctant to listen to Gyimah' constant moan on this issue...or follow DFE's flawed advice on how to run their business by reducing costs with higher ratios ....politicians just have not got a clue about EY!

  21. #36
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    Problem is Simona, Ofsted/DofE are constantly changing things, no one can keep up with it all
    Time Out.. The perfect time for thinking about what you're going to destroy next.

  22. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCrakers View Post
    But, the problem I have is I'm not taking on a 4th. I've got two equally part time enquiries. 1 parent wants 8-1pm and the other wants 12-5pm. It should be simple but its not.

    It should be easy to have an overlap of just an hour when my friend down the road has 4 mindees for 40hrs. I'm confident that for that hour I can offer care to all but the rules don't allow.

    I'm not doing it for the money as there seems to be a lot of enquiries out there atm....So, I shall be turning both away and waiting for a full-timer. The only loss is on the parent who will find it hard to find a space as we are all full.

    (The afterschool club has just filled their last two spaces for Sept!!! That's how busy we all are around here.)
    Surely if you already have two under 5 and then take on the other two, that hour between 12 and 1 you have four and it's new business. I don't believe it's an exceptional circumstance and you can have a max of 3 under 5, clearly stated in the EYFS. The cm down the road presumably has four under continuity of care which has meant she hasn't had to give notice to a settled mindee. One of your potential mindees can find alternative care. COC is not there to find a back door to taking on four, but to prevent upheaval for a settled family.

  23. #38
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    JCrackers....I know I am wasting my time on this but here we go.

    Sorry to disappoint but I have found both Ofsted and DfE have been 'very consistent' when it comes to this ratio issue
    I have spoken/written several times and the answer has always been the same and very clear.
    Where is the evidence that they are inconsistent?

    I have clarification on the issues I raised: continuity of care, new business and overlap...all in black and white...very clear

    I looked at Ofsted and DfE emails again....consistent in their statement and clarification in over 20 pages.

    Sarah says the DfE do not answer...20 pages of emails say the opposite
    Sarah says Ofsted do not give answers...I have answers in black and white plus those I asked at OBC....as have other cms who have queried this issue so they have consistently answered the questions

    The Foundation Years website put a FAQS on their website following DfE and Ofsted decision...confirmed in their email
    There is apparently a statement/letters on the forum FB page....not any use mentioning that to me as I do not use FB, many cms do not use FB and thousands do not use this forum at all

    No one tells cms what to do...the responsibility is theirs...confirmed in the emails very very clearly

    I agree things are changing all the time but this ratio has remained the same since 2012 and has remained a problem only in this forum as others are very clear.

    What I suggest is ....If unclear 'check it out' for yourself...social media is not the answer and no one acts on our behalf.

    The responsibility for deciding on ratio is that of the cm who is considering it....no one can advise them or tell them what to do or not to do because it is individual to them

    Rick quotes the cm down the road...you cannot compare with anyone because ratios are unique to each cm and their circumstances.

    My question previously was where does it say anything about 'overlap'?...it does not!
    out of the 700 members who have read this thread no one seems to have come forward

    where does it say anything about 'new business'?....it does not
    Continuity of care is 'an example given' in all cases by both Ofsted and DfE

    My suggestion is that cms try again to contact the DfE if they really feel confused and the issue is important to their business

    I will certainly continue to do so ....so off I go.....it will never end and it looks like it is a subject close to your heart too.
    Good luck!
    Last edited by Simona; 01-03-2016 at 08:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    Surely if you already have two under 5 and then take on the other two, that hour between 12 and 1 you have four and it's new business. I don't believe it's an exceptional circumstance and you can have a max of 3 under 5, clearly stated in the EYFS. The cm down the road presumably has four under continuity of care which has meant she hasn't had to give notice to a settled mindee. One of your potential mindees can find alternative care. COC is not there to find a back door to taking on four, but to prevent upheaval for a settled family.
    There's no back door open here? Like I said, there's nothing in it for me...it's not the money. It just seems a shame to turn 1 or both away that's all, just for the sake of 60mins. Like I said I could quite happily say no to both....i'll get a full timer no problem but wanted to help them both out.

    Although, from a business point of view ....which we are trying to run, taking 1 family on for 5hrs and leaving half a day unfilled isn't good business sense?! So finding two families that slot into each other doesn't come around very often.


    I've had 4 before while a Mum went to an hrs meeting on her day off...so really it's no different.
    Last edited by JCrakers; 01-03-2016 at 11:34 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    JCrackers....I know I am wasting my time on this but here we go.

    Sorry to disappoint but I have found both Ofsted and DfE have been 'very consistent' when it comes to this ratio issue
    I have spoken/written several times and the answer has always been the same and very clear.
    Where is the evidence that they are inconsistent?

    I have clarification on the issues I raised: continuity of care, new business and overlap...all in black and white...very clear

    I looked at Ofsted and DfE emails again....consistent in their statement and clarification in over 20 pages.

    Sarah says the DfE do not answer...20 pages of emails say the opposite
    Sarah says Ofsted do not give answers...I have answers in black and white plus those I asked at OBC....as have other cms who have queried this issue so they have consistently answered the questions

    The Foundation Years website put a FAQS on their website following DfE and Ofsted decision...confirmed in their email
    There is apparently a statement/letters on the forum FB page....not any use mentioning that to me as I do not use FB, many cms do not use FB and thousands do not use this forum at all

    No one tells cms what to do...the responsibility is theirs...confirmed in the emails very very clearly

    I agree things are changing all the time but this ratio has remained the same since 2012 and has remained a problem only in this forum as others are very clear.

    What I suggest is ....If unclear 'check it out' for yourself...social media is not the answer and no one acts on our behalf.

    The responsibility for deciding on ratio is that of the cm who is considering it....no one can advise them or tell them what to do or not to do because it is individual to them

    Rick quotes the cm down the road...you cannot compare with anyone because ratios are unique to each cm and their circumstances.

    My question previously was where does it say anything about 'overlap'?...it does not!
    out of the 700 members who have read this thread no one seems to have come forward

    where does it say anything about 'new business'?....it does not
    Continuity of care is 'an example given' in all cases by both Ofsted and DfE

    My suggestion is that cms try again to contact the DfE if they really feel confused and the issue is important to their business

    I will certainly continue to do so ....so off I go.....it will never end and it looks like it is a subject close to your heart too.
    Good luck!
    My last post about this and I promise I'm not trying to be argumentative.

    The EYFS does not mention overlap, perhaps because the implication is in max 3 under 5 unless exceptional circumstances. It does not need to mention overlap. It cannot list everything you can and can't do.

    It does not mention new business because by implication max 3 under 5 covers it with the added clause of exceptional circumstances. The EYFS should either remove this reference to a maximum of under 5's or state that you can exceed it with a risk assessment or based on a cm's ability....it does not say this so how can it be permissible to ignore the reference. You choose not to ignore the 6 under 8 reference.

    I would love the wording to be looked at carefully by DfE rather than remain largely the same during the update in 2014. Why not lobby for a mention of overlap if it is allowed (how long is an overlap......an inspector says your overlap is too long and downgrades you....if we do not get more solid information how can a cm risk an overlap?).

    I agree with you that it's up to the individual cm but if we are only looking at the wording in the EYFS it suggests no overlap or exceeding of 3 under 5's by implication. It would be wrong for cms to assume something is permissible just because the EYFS does not say we can't.

 

 
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