Funding Review: DfE publishes 3 reports (2 October)

[Simona]

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...licy-statement

Also this was out today

DfE 'unable to understand' cost of childcare following review!!

DfE 'unable to understand' cost of childcare following review | Children & Young People Now

[Mouse]

It's good to see that there were over 2000 responses - it must have given someone a headache having to work through them all and then they still couldn't make sense of them!!

[Simona]

It's good to see that there were over 2000 responses - it must have given someone a headache having to work through them all and then they still couldn't make sense of them!!

I have visions of those poor civil servants running around the DfE with their calculators saying 'NO' it doesn't add up!
2000 responses is maybe a bit on the low side considering there are close to 90,000 providers but...well done to CMs....37% responded!

The concern is that 19,300 people responded to an online questionnaire....mostly parents...those are not included in the consultation but will obviously have a huge impact on the final decision.

I think the PLA response to the consultation being a 'futile exercise' is spot on.....apparently the DfE believes we gave the wrong answers
All we can do is 'sigh' and prepare for a long debate!

The cynic in me says Sam Gyimah was sent to France ...again...on a mission...wonder what that could be?

Gyimah visits France for ideas on free childcare expansion | Children & Young People Now

[Mouse]

I have visions of those poor civil servants running around the DfE with their calculators saying 'NO' it doesn't add up!
2000 responses is maybe a bit on the low side considering there are close to 90,000 providers but...well done to CMs....37% responded!

The concern is that 19,300 people responded to an online questionnaire....mostly parents...those are not included in the consultation but will obviously have a huge impact on the final decision.

I think the PLA response to the consultation being a 'futile exercise' is spot on.....apparently the DfE believes we gave the wrong answers
All we can do is 'sigh' and prepare for a long debate!

The cynic in me says Sam Gyimah was sent to France ...again...on a mission...wonder what that could be?

Gyimah visits France for ideas on free childcare expansion | Children & Young People Now

As soon as the consultation came online I looked at it and posted on here saying I was expecting lots of specific questions to answer, not something so vague. I think it was clear from the beginning that they weren't going to get a simple reply.

The article says that many of the responses talked about the shortfall in the amount the LAs pay. That wasn't the info the government was looking for, but at least it means they can't keep on ignoring or denying it. I think we'll all have got the point across to them that the LAs are underpaying us, so it was a worthwhile exercise in that way.

I don't know anything about the Early Years arrangements in France. I guess some research into that might give an insight into what their next wave of attack might be.

[Simona]

As soon as the consultation came online I looked at it and posted on here saying I was expecting lots of specific questions to answer, not something so vague. I think it was clear from the beginning that they weren't going to get a simple reply.

The article says that many of the responses talked about the shortfall in the amount the LAs pay. That wasn't the info the government was looking for, but at least it means they can't keep on ignoring or denying it. I think we'll all have got the point across to them that the LAs are underpaying us, so it was a worthwhile exercise in that way.

I don't know anything about the Early Years arrangements in France. I guess some research into that might give an insight into what their next wave of attack might be.

You were right...it was very wide and useless...the Deloitte survey was not though and asked specific questions on specific costs.
I suppose even Deloitte ....considering their expertise....were unable to unscramble our figures..
.why not involve those who carried out the original research on cost of childcare which DfE dismissed immediately?

I believe Truss came back with glowing reports on France but her dubious ideas/suggestions were rejected especially the ratio but Gyimah is pursuing France again...why not Sweden or somewhere else?
I smell a rat and many others do too...only time will tell.

[bunyip]

I agree. I think "exercise in futility" is a good (and polite) paraphrase of what went through my mind the moment I saw an open-ended "comments" box. If the Whitehall accountants wanted specific answers, maybe they should've asked specific questions.

As mentioned, most providers are concerned about the gap between their regular fees and what they receive from LA's. We may have got this message across, but I fear it will fall on closed ears in the corridors of power. They have to justify public spending. Put crudely, if they simply paid what we said we ought to be paid, it would look irresponsible, as if we were dictating to them.

Tbh, CMs are not very good at analysing the costs of delivering childcare. Most commonly, we tend to complain as a collective group about the high cost of insurance, ICO registration, Ofsted renewal, etc. But that little lot adds up to barely £200pa: which is the tiniest fraction of our actual costs. Also, we tend to think our tax-deductible expenses represent the full picture of our costs. In fact, probably the biggest single cost is our time. None of us do a time-costing for all the unpaid hours we work on planning, training, LJ,s record-keeping, meeting prospective clients, CPD, etc.

If you doubt this, do a quick calculation. How many hours pw do you spend on business matters when the mindees are not present? Multiply that by a nominal 'wage' figure that the business might reasonably pay you for your time (let's take the NMW of £6.70pw). It's works out quite a lot.

[lollipop kid]

Spot on, Bunyip!

LK

[Simona]

I agree. I think "exercise in futility" is a good (and polite) paraphrase of what went through my mind the moment I saw an open-ended "comments" box. If the Whitehall accountants wanted specific answers, maybe they should've asked specific questions.

As mentioned, most providers are concerned about the gap between their regular fees and what they receive from LA's. We may have got this message across, but I fear it will fall on closed ears in the corridors of power. They have to justify public spending. Put crudely, if they simply paid what we said we ought to be paid, it would look irresponsible, as if we were dictating to them.

Tbh, CMs are not very good at analysing the costs of delivering childcare. Most commonly, we tend to complain as a collective group about the high cost of insurance, ICO registration, Ofsted renewal, etc. But that little lot adds up to barely £200pa: which is the tiniest fraction of our actual costs. Also, we tend to think our tax-deductible expenses represent the full picture of our costs. In fact, probably the biggest single cost is our time. None of us do a time-costing for all the unpaid hours we work on planning, training, LJ,s record-keeping, meeting prospective clients, CPD, etc.

If you doubt this, do a quick calculation. How many hours pw do you spend on business matters when the mindees are not present? Multiply that by a nominal 'wage' figure that the business might reasonably pay you for your time (let's take the NMW of £6.70pw). It's works out quite a lot.

From your reply Bunyip I am happy I answered the consultation question correctly and ignored the 'Open ended box' trap.

Just to mention that recently the govt has given China 30 million ...plus schools will receive 1 million to teach Chinese...shall we mention the 25 m to build a prison in Jamaica ...is is Jamaica or a similar Caribbean country?...and the huge amount given to China to produce steel for HS2 when Redcar has been mothballed?...politicians eh!
If finding the money for childcare is such a problem...why promise it at the last minute?

I still do not think that the vast majority of those who replied to the funding review did not give the right answers...are we all so dim?

[Simona]

Sorry I hit the send button before addressing your very good point on CMs business skills Bunyip.
How many CMs are encouraged to attend a 'business' training course when applying to register?
Before starting on the endless paperwork trail required by Oftsed and DfE running a business should be more important....many new CMs have never gone near a self assessment or understand what we can legitimately claim from a home based business or dealt with day to day expenses, tax free allowances and so on.

How many CMs attend a yearly training to understand the changes that take place each year in finances after each budget?
I am happy to say that there are now many training courses especially devised for CMs and hope many will take advantage of that.
Sorry for the deviation.

[bunyip]

Sorry I hit the send button before addressing your very good point on CMs business skills Bunyip.
How many CMs are encouraged to attend a 'business' training course when applying to register?
Before starting on the endless paperwork trail required by Oftsed and DfE running a business should be more important....many new CMs have never gone near a self assessment or understand what we can legitimately claim from a home based business or dealt with day to day expenses, tax free allowances and so on.

How many CMs attend a yearly training to understand the changes that take place each year in finances after each budget?
I am happy to say that there are now many training courses especially devised for CMs and hope many will take advantage of that.
Sorry for the deviation.

A welcome deviation, if I may say.

I should also say I probably shocked a few members by hitting the 'like' button, and that was not a mistake.

(Mind you, it's Saturday afternoon, I have no mindees, so I've also 'hit' the cider already. )

[bunyip]

From your reply Bunyip I am happy I answered the consultation question correctly and ignored the 'Open ended box' trap.

Just to mention that recently the govt has given China 30 million ...plus schools will receive 1 million to teach Chinese...shall we mention the 25 m to build a prison in Jamaica ...is is Jamaica or a similar Caribbean country?...and the huge amount given to China to produce steel for HS2 when Redcar has been mothballed?...politicians eh!
If finding the money for childcare is such a problem...why promise it at the last minute?

I still do not think that the vast majority of those who replied to the funding review did not give the right answers...are we all so dim?

Maybe it's me that's being dim, but doesn't HM Government already have accurate raw data on CM's and nurseries' running costs? They could simply request our consent to access our HMRC tax returns, if only to preserve the illusion that they obey their own data protection laws, but any fool knows we live in the world's greatest surveillance society anyway.

They can then figure out the approximate costs of providing childcare by simply surveying us to request our total attendance hours. Then all they need to consult on is whether we believe there are additional costs involved in caring for 3-4yo's in relation to other age groups, which are not included in our tax-deductible expenses, and what our 'normal' fees are.

If the regime commits to 30 "free" hours without a revision of the rate paid to providers, they are likely to create a problem for their own bean-counters. Viz: our 'normal' rates will have to be inflated in order to cross-subsidise the 3-4yo freeloaders. In short, the exchequer is creating it's own future statistical conundrum.

[Simona]

Maybe it's me that's being dim, but doesn't HM Government already have accurate raw data on CM's and nurseries' running costs? They could simply request our consent to access our HMRC tax returns, if only to preserve the illusion that they obey their own data protection laws, but any fool knows we live in the world's greatest surveillance society anyway.

They can then figure out the approximate costs of providing childcare by simply surveying us to request our total attendance hours. Then all they need to consult on is whether we believe there are additional costs involved in caring for 3-4yo's in relation to other age groups, which are not included in our tax-deductible expenses, and what our 'normal' fees are.

If the regime commits to 30 "free" hours without a revision of the rate paid to providers, they are likely to create a problem for their own bean-counters. Viz: our 'normal' rates will have to be inflated in order to cross-subsidise the 3-4yo freeloaders. In short, the exchequer is creating it's own future statistical conundrum.

No Bunyip...you are not dim and neither is anyone else but this rather arrogant govt!

Both PLA and NDNA commissioned their own research on cost of childcare....Pacey too I believe?

PLA especially came out with a very detailed report done by CEEDA 'Counting the cost'...it should be easy to google and find it.
the DfE dismissed it as 'nonsense' and said that the sector was NOT underfunded....until the election when bright Dave decided otherwise.

I would be very cautious on giving anyone access to our HMRC details....although I think this govt is doing that in future as well as selling our NHS records...am I right?

Our tax return would give them details of our costs and benefits but not how much we need to charge per hour to survive....do you agree?.

The DfE has consulted with us ...but they say we were too stupid to provide the right details....oh! I know that some providers waffled on and vented their anger in that little open ended box in the consultation....but in the end we gave the figure they wanted....as you rightly said something much higher that the LAs pitiful amount.....unfortunately their computer says 'NO'...or more like Osborne is needing a nappy change!

Of course there are costs...could they not ask Sam Gyimah...the ex banker...to spell them out?...oh wait again!!! he is too busy visiting France with a secret agenda...and we can guess what that is ...right?

The 'regime' has tied itself in knots and has committed to 30 hours ...but here is my take...when they could not make any sense of our plain figures they asked for 'volunteers' with 'innovative' ideas on how to provide the 30 hour

These innovative people have huge interests and of course will provide Nicky Morgan with all the ideas she lacks...very simple!
Despite the promise 30 hrs is to be in 2017 this govt cannot wait and want to fast it forward to 2016

It is not a fait accompli this govt will succeed ...I think many providers already have their own thoughts on this.

My view is that the DfE will dangle a huge carrot in front of our eyes...it seems the obvious thing to do! I am sure we will hear it at their conference !

Let's not forget those charities who immediately praised the govt for raising the 'free hours' of childcare for 'hard pressed and hard working families'...unfortunately those charities are not the ones subsidising it!!!..see 4 Children and Family and Childcare Trust as examples....and many more!

[Simona]

Surprise surprise...the 30 hours of free childcare is 'underfunded'...who would have thought that?

David Cameron's free childcare pledge is underfunded, says leading thinktank | UK Politics | News | The Independent

[bunyip]

This rather confirms what we'd all been saying all along.

I am confused by this statement from the article:

The report will fuel concerns that the childcare pledge, made by the Prime Minister during the election campaign, will undermine the quality of care and ratchet up costs for nurseries, because it doubles the existing provision of 15 free hours without any detailed evidence that there will be the staff and resources to cover the extra hours.

I don't see how it's a matter of the quality of care. If the money isn't there to pay nurseries and CMs, then we simply won't be providing the care at all. The Indy seems to suggest we'll provide the care for free, but just be a bit rubbish about it. Or the nurseries will deliver the extra hours without sufficient staff to meet the legal ratios, and so break the regulations. Daft.

Since the Regime is so keen on 'British Values' (in this case its own twisted version of "democracy") can we look forward to them owning up to an uncosted election-pledge lie to buy votes from naive parents? Presumably followed by resignation and fresh general election? No? Really?

[Simona]

This rather confirms what we'd all been saying all along.

I am confused by this statement from the article:



I don't see how it's a matter of the quality of care. If the money isn't there to pay nurseries and CMs, then we simply won't be providing the care at all. The Indy seems to suggest we'll provide the care for free, but just be a bit rubbish about it. Or the nurseries will deliver the extra hours without sufficient staff to meet the legal ratios, and so break the regulations. Daft.

Since the Regime is so keen on 'British Values' (in this case its own twisted version of "democracy") can we look forward to them owning up to an uncosted election-pledge lie to buy votes from naive parents? Presumably followed by resignation and fresh general election? No? Really?

Don't mention the war Bunyip...ooops...meant ratios!
In all recent publications and articles ratios have been mentioned but very fleetingly even in the CMs SEED research...restricted as it was to only 99 cs.
my take they will become a real issue when the govt comes out with the 'magic figure'...what would Gyimah be trying to discover in France that Truss missed?

The IPPR mentioned in The Independent have come out with this today to highlight the concerns:
'Loosening regulations: We are concerned that the low costing for this policy will lead the government to change the nature of provision to fit the price tag, including by loosening child-to-adult ratios in care settings'

Here is the link to the full article

Extending the early years entitlement: Costings, concerns and alternatives | IPPR

In terms of quality I have heard this brought up at various meetings and discussions...I feel they mean qualified staff
Nurseries and preschool have a very complicated and expensive system for staff cover

When it comes to 'qualifications' CMs remain the only ones in the sector NOT required to have any even though the Tory conference is stressing they are vital...go figure!

[Simona]

I posted this comment in the 'grandparents' thread ...sorry about that as it will make little sense there
Hope it is of interest

Has anyone received an email from 4Children/Foundation Years about events around the 30 hours of childcare?

If not this is the message:

The 30 hours childcare entitlement – planning for success
Central London
Date: 19 Oct 2015 Time: 10.00am - 12.00pm
The Department for Education and 4Children are holding an early engagement event on the 30 hours childcare entitlement in Central London. The event is free to attend.

The event will help childcare providers network and get to grips with some of the challenges and solutions in delivering the new 30 hours funded entitlement. As well as a presentation from the DfE updating on the latest news of the 30 hours there will be two workshops. Key points from these table discussions will be shared before the event closes.

The event is designed to:

explore what the 30 hours childcare offer might mean for children
understand how providers see the child’s experience
explore some high level solutions of the 30 hours for providers
gather approaches to delivery

Who should attend:

school heads
nursery owners
nursery leaders
nursery finance or business managers
child minder agencies
registered child minders
LA early years leads
Early years sector organisations


Nothing wrong with the events but why just London?
It also feels like they want to convince us we should say yes without knowing what the funding will be?
'Planning for success' is the title or should it be: planning for more underfunding?

[mummyMia]

I'm not surprised. I was planning on taking part in the consultation but once I actually saw the vague comments box I decided not to bother. I couldn't understand what they actually wanted and I also wasn't sure how I should account for my own 'salary'. Should I allow myself minimum wage, should I include hours spent on paperwork when the children are not present, or should I put down the figure that I feel I need to earn a year to make it worth my while to do this job? Or should I have just put down the hourly rate I currently charge parents? There was zero guidance given!!

[rickysmiths]

I think you are right Simona people waffled on about things other than the funding and it has muddied the waters and not helped.

The D of E is still consulting with cms regarding their real costs so we shall see after that if it makes a difference.

[rickysmiths]

I posted this comment in the 'grandparents' thread ...sorry about that as it will make little sense there
Hope it is of interest

Has anyone received an email from 4Children/Foundation Years about events around the 30 hours of childcare?

If not this is the message:

The 30 hours childcare entitlement – planning for success
Central London
Date: 19 Oct 2015 Time: 10.00am - 12.00pm
The Department for Education and 4Children are holding an early engagement event on the 30 hours childcare entitlement in Central London. The event is free to attend.

The event will help childcare providers network and get to grips with some of the challenges and solutions in delivering the new 30 hours funded entitlement. As well as a presentation from the DfE updating on the latest news of the 30 hours there will be two workshops. Key points from these table discussions will be shared before the event closes.

The event is designed to:

explore what the 30 hours childcare offer might mean for children
understand how providers see the child’s experience
explore some high level solutions of the 30 hours for providers
gather approaches to delivery

Who should attend:

school heads
nursery owners
nursery leaders
nursery finance or business managers
child minder agencies
registered child minders
LA early years leads
Early years sector organisations


Nothing wrong with the events but why just London?
It also feels like they want to convince us we should say yes without knowing what the funding will be?
'Planning for success' is the title or should it be: planning for more underfunding?

I saw this and yet again an event on during the day so very unhelpful for childminders who might like to attend. Maybe it will be the time all the providers make it very clear, no full funding, no funded places. The Government would be a bit stuffed if we all withdrew our places.

[Simona]

I saw this and yet again an event on during the day so very unhelpful for childminders who might like to attend. Maybe it will be the time all the providers make it very clear, no full funding, no funded places. The Government would be a bit stuffed if we all withdrew our places.

You will be pleased to know that 4 children never replied to my tweet on this when I asked if there were any other events available.
Someone came to my rescue and said to look at the Webinar but I am not sure where to look for that as I only got the email...if I get any further I will share....maybe it is on the Foundation Years website? ....I am not very keen on Webinars I confess

I am more than sure there will be plenty of meetings on the 30 hours once the govt put their offer on the table...I will bear in mind timing for CMs is very important when I get to my next meeting