Funded hours

[alex__17]

I've been asked today by a parent if I can offer the 15 hours childcare.
They're a friend and know I don't as its considerably lower than my hourly rate which is already one of lowest in the area.
She said she'd happily top up to what they're paying now as I don't charge meals or outings on top of my hourly rate. I've said I'll look into it, am I allowed to do this? I remember reading something saying childminders couldn't charge more as parents have to be allowed totally free childcare but they want to top up as it'll cost them less if I claim it as they don't want her in a nursery or preschool and will continue to send her to me regardless of if I can offer the free hours.
Also how do I work it over the whole year as she will still come in holidays?

[moggy]

You are not 'allowed' to top up the fees for the funded hours. You will sign a contract with your LA which will agree that. Maybe you can find a way by charging for food, outings... it is hard, depends what the £ difference is and how much risk you are willing to take in terms of upsetting the LA.

As for splitting it across the weeks you are open in a year... total nightmare when I tried to do it, I spent hours and hours counting up and dividing up and splitting across invoices, total headache. Might just be easier to offer the funding in the term time and charge normal fees in hols. But see how your LA allow you to split it, and check exactly what weeks per term they pay for as it is not necessarily the same as school term dates.

[FloraDora]

For a child that comes for 3 days I charge 2 days x7.5 hours funded hours - Between 9-4.30 , the child however comes before this time and leaves after - I charge a set additional daily rate that covers the extra time with me and meals - works out similar to 2x full days with me. The third day I charge my full day rate. Others I know charge 3x5 hours and then the extra daily rate on 3 days for the remainder of the time with them.
It's the parents choice to pay the extra and leave her for longer and to pay the meals instead of providing a packed lunch.

This is for 3/4 year old funding.
I did however have a 2 year funded child this year and did not charge any extra as I knew parent would not be able to fund anything, she picked up as soon as poss and because the 2 year funding is higher I didn't lose out much.
My LEA were happy with this.

You can charge for extra hours with you and meals, but parents have to be given this choice.
If however the child does only the 15 hours you can only charge the meals - if parents want you to.

I hope this makes sense!

[alex__17]

Ok perhaps not as straightforward as I thought then! Thanks for the info, will just say it's term time and not even enter into discussions about stretching it if it's complicated, they usually pay me cash and said they'd just give me a lump sum to cover food for the month as 'top up'... I don't know, makes it all complicated!

I'd like to be able to offer it to save them a bit of money, but obviously with my business head on its more than £1 less than my current hourly rate and nearly £2 less than what I've recently found to be the average rate for my area, I started my rates a bit lower in order to attract business not realising how quickly I'd fill up and don't feel after only 18 months I can increase fees...but thats another issue.

They're on holiday for a week so I will do some more research about how I'd actually claim it and how much of a hassle it will be and do all the sums and hopefully have an answer for them when they get back.

[alex__17]

She only does 10 hours with me, 6 hours one day and 4 another, so unless I say something like I only offer 3 hour sessions for funded places I doubt I'd be able to charge the extra. However for such small hours if I'm allowed to charge for meals on top (parents have said they have no intention of sending a packed lunch and think I should be charging them extra for food already) i may be able to manage it.
Thanks again for the info, really helpful to hear from those already offering it, all new territory for me.

[FloraDora]

My LEA offer stretched funding but since I don't do it I am not absolutely clear how it works. You don't get any extra than 38weeksx 15 hours funded a year, but it may be stretched over a full year?
I get paid twice a term. Two thirds at the beginning and one third towards the end but every County is different it seems.
If I ever have the children in hols I charge a full normal day and it doesn't interfere with the funded hours, but I rarely do this.

[blue bear]

I had a discussion with my development worker on this subject recently. Here we can apply a voluntary charge for snacks/meals and outings. We can charge for these or parents can supply their own. The reason we can charge for these is because my regular rate includes snacks,meals and outing, where as the rate the council pays only covers care, they do not pay for snacks/meals and outings.

It just so happens that my charge for snacks/meals is exactly the difference between my regular rate and that the council pays. My development worker confirmed this is ok to do.

The stretched funding I tend to work over terms, so I work out how many hours per week they want, times that by the number of weeks I'm working , Minus the total available hours for that term(autumn term is 195 hours.
Multiply the remaining hours by your normal hourly fee (add any charges you make for your holidays here if you charge) and divide by the number of months in that term (autumn is four, September, October, November and December)
It does mean each term their monthly payment changes slightly but it's much easier to work out if they decide to leave mid funded year.

[moggy]

I had a discussion with my development worker on this subject recently. Here we can apply a voluntary charge for snacks/meals and outings. We can charge for these or parents can supply their own. The reason we can charge for these is because my regular rate includes snacks,meals and outing, where as the rate the council pays only covers care, they do not pay for snacks/meals and outings.

It just so happens that my charge for snacks/meals is exactly the difference between my regular rate and that the council pays. My development worker confirmed this is ok to do.

The stretched funding I tend to work over terms, so I work out how many hours per week they want, times that by the number of weeks I'm working , Minus the total available hours for that term(autumn term is 195 hours.
Multiply the remaining hours by your normal hourly fee (add any charges you make for your holidays here if you charge) and divide by the number of months in that term (autumn is four, September, October, November and December)
It does mean each term their monthly payment changes slightly but it's much easier to work out if they decide to leave mid funded year.

Charging for food/outings can work, but depends on the short-fall you are trying to cover. If you are losing £1.50 per hour (it is even more than that locally) for 15 hours a week over say 2 days of care, that is over £11 extra for food/outings a DAY- you could feed a family of 4 for that so really it is pretty transparant what you are trying to do and requires the LA to either turn a blind eye or just not know what is going on with CMers. If child comes over more sessions a week it helps to spread it out more... all very time consuming to calculate.

[Ripeberry]

Unless a child is doing more than 15 hours with you, funded hours are a total nightmare!

[Simona]

It may be worth remembering that the guidance for funding 2,3 and 4 comes from the DfE and it tells us what LAs 'should' do or are 'required' to do....and what we can do.

LAs do impose certain conditions but they cannot stop provider charging for extra outside of the 15 hrs.
Many LAs are also guilty of adding too many conditions, especially on cms, which has resulted in thousands not choosing to take up the entitlement and also paying too low a rate which makes our businesses unsustainable.

This is the DfE guidance...go through it with parents if it helps.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...dance_2014.pdf

Look at p7 A1.7 = providers can charge extras for goods or services as long as it is 'not a condition' to access the funded place
P8 and 9 are about flexibility A 2.4= offer what suits cms and parents not the LAs

How we accommodate the 15 hrs is our decision taken with parents to suit their needs and our pattern of work
the only remit for LAs is to audit how we charge parents and ensure the 15 hrs are provided for free

For this look at page 5 = LAs should not intervene in our private businesses.
The DfE guidance is dated Sept 2014 and it is still current.

It is also possible that our LA has a 'sustainability' officer employed in their team...look it up and ask for help, their aim is to help us work out the best package around this issue.
There are also other organisations that support us in delivering sustainable 15 hours.

[Simona]

Can anyone explain to me as I truly find this difficult to understand ...how can the govt decide to take schools out of LAs' control and support 'free schools'...but...when it comes to funding childcare places the govt 'appears' to look the other way?

[Mouse]

My LA keeps telling me that the amount they pay will be topped up by the Pupil Premium, so the rate isn't too different to mine. I keep telling them that none of the children I care for qualify for the PP, so it makes no difference to me at all

From September I am offering a maximum of 6 hours a day funded with an additional charge for food, unless parents provide it themselves. I only provide funding for children who already come to me and who are already doing more than 6 hours a day. I can cover my costs that way without losing more than a £ or so a day...but it really shouldn't be so hard, should it? I explain to parents why they can't have 9 or 10 hours a day funded and without exception they have been astounded at how little the LA pays and how much we stand to lose out on by providing the funding.

[Simona]

My LA keeps telling me that the amount they pay will be topped up by the Pupil Premium, so the rate isn't too different to mine. I keep telling them that none of the children I care for qualify for the PP, so it makes no difference to me at all

From September I am offering a maximum of 6 hours a day funded with an additional charge for food, unless parents provide it themselves. I only provide funding for children who already come to me and who are already doing more than 6 hours a day. I can cover my costs that way without losing more than a £ or so a day...but it really shouldn't be so hard, should it? I explain to parents why they can't have 9 or 10 hours a day funded and without exception they have been astounded at how little the LA pays and how much we stand to lose out on by providing the funding.

Except that it is not really true! I am astounded any LA would say that...they obviously feel we are too dumb to understand the system.

The EYPP is not a 'top up' by the LAs...it is an additional funding of 53p for every 3/4 year old who fits the criteria and it is funded by the DfE not LAs who are not allowed to touch this amount.
EYPP has to be accounted for...how we spend it and why it makes a difference to outcomes.
Let's not forget EY get 53p =£300 per year while 3/4 year olds in school get thousands.

In my LA our funding is on the whole 50% less than our fees...53p is a drop in the ocean.

It is very worrying if LAs start spinning the idea EYPP is on top of their funding and I am sure DfE wouldn't be too pleased about this.
Another issue to present at Big Childcare Conversation in September

[Mouse]

Except that it is not really true! I am astounded any LA would say that...they obviously feel we are too dumb to understand the system.

The EYPP is not a 'top up' by the LAs...it is an additional funding of 53p for every 3/4 year old who fits the criteria and it is funded by the DfE not LAs who are not allowed to touch this amount.
EYPP has to be accounted for...how we spend it and why it makes a difference to outcomes.
Let's not forget EY get 53p =£300 per year while 3/4 year olds in school get thousands.

In my LA our funding is on the whole 50% less than our fees...53p is a drop in the ocean.

It is very worrying if LAs start spinning the idea EYPP is on top of their funding and I am sure DfE wouldn't be too pleased about this.
Another issue to present at Big Childcare Conversation in September

You're right Simona. For 53p an hour it really wouldn't be worth me claiming it anyway, not considering the extra work that goes with it by having to account for how it was spent and how it's benefited the children.

[Simona]

You're right Simona. For 53p an hour it really wouldn't be worth me claiming it anyway, not considering the extra work that goes with it by having to account for how it was spent and how it's benefited the children.

At the moment we do not know how we have to account for the EYPP except show in our records we have received it and how we spent it.
I know LAs are running training on this issue and they give us plenty of examples

At the London OBC Ofsted told us they will, in future, have to check how this funding 'improves outcomes' but I don't think there is a clear guidance as yet.

I assume they are waiting for the DfE to instruct Ofsted on this...I do have an issue with this as it means Ofsted will go beyond their remit as, so far, they have never looked at our finances.
I am sure this will become clearer in the near future as all Tribal/Prospects inspectors are being trained as we speak for the CIF.

This is the DfE guidance and it may be useful for cms to keep it in a safe place if they are not too sure about what the LA is doing...challenge we must.
We all appreciate LAs funding is being cut by up to 40%...neither education nor EY are safe or ringfenced.... but I don't think we have to work for peanuts and have to do so much extra paperwork.
the Funding Review will address the funded hours...we live in hope!

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/early-ye...nding-for-eypp

[Mouse]

Simona, do you know if LAs have to give any justification for the amount of money they keep from the funding?

I can't remember the exact figures, but LAs must receive a lot of money from the difference between the amount they receive from the government and the amount they pay out to providers. Do they have to say where that money has been spent? Surely if we have to justify the use of 53p an hour they should have to explain what they do with the huge amounts they keep?

[Simona]

Simona, do you know if LAs have to give any justification for the amount of money they keep from the funding?

I can't remember the exact figures, but LAs must receive a lot of money from the difference between the amount they receive from the government and the amount they pay out to providers. Do they have to say where that money has been spent? Surely if we have to justify the use of 53p an hour they should have to explain what they do with the huge amounts they keep?

My understanding is that LAs 'cream off' anything from 10% from the DfE funding because this govt has removed the ringfencing from EY funding.
No they do not have to tell us what they use it for but I also understand they redistribute it to other parts of their budgets.

You may remember that both Clegg and Sam Gyimah promised they would encourage LAs to pass on more funding to us...unfortunately it has come to nothing and now we have the funding review
Also Truss announced that no less than £5.09 should be paid to us...again that fell on deaf ears.
I also understand that to attract providers to do the 2 year old funding this scheme has been funded at a good rate at the expense of the 3/4 year old rate which in some LAs remains as low as £ 3.50 or even less.

There is also a toolkit you can look at to see how much each LA gets from the DfE and you can compare the variations from LA to LA.

It is not the LA who want us to justify the 53p...it is the DfE who want to see how this investment is producing results.
This all I have gathered from conferences and meetings I have attended.

My bug bear is that LAs...somehow...have made funding their crusade...it is in fact tax payers' money not theirs but they do not have to account for it and continue to pressure us with conditions...maddening!

[Jelly Baby]

Hi,

Personally ive found the whole funding situation an absolute nightmare. I already had 1 little girl who was with me and went on to it. She has taken the longest a child ever has done to settle and she's a lovely little girl BUT I wasn't aware that they had to be with you/claim a term before you receive funding (wasn't told) so poor mum had to foot 5 weeks in total. She is stretched across the year and only now has it settled into place.

I have another little one who is term time only and she is just the normal funded hours. I also get funding from the college which is a month + in arrears so all in all the money never seems to come in.

This week there has been a confusion over the forms so ive not been paid at all again and its a nightmare as they cant make 'quick' payments.

Ive got so fed up of it ive started advertising and am seriously considering not taking funded as cant afford to live without a consistant amount coming in each month. Ive actually asked the council to break it down in simple terms of when payments are due..even then they arrive days before or after the said date..frustrating.

AND!! sorry in reply to your question No we are not allowed to ask any more than we get as I have been told. The college however are fab and have given me £5 extra a day for fuel allowances.

Hope you get it sorted out!

[bunyip]

Can anyone explain to me as I truly find this difficult to understand ...how can the govt decide to take schools out of LAs' control and support 'free schools'...but...when it comes to funding childcare places the govt 'appears' to look the other way?

I guess it's just another "British Value".

A bit like promoting respect for the law, national institutions and individual freedoms.................... despite the fact that you are 8 times more likely to be killed by the police than by terrorism.

[Simona]

I guess it's just another "British Value".

A bit like promoting respect for the law, national institutions and individual freedoms.................... despite the fact that you are 8 times more likely to be killed by the police than by terrorism.

And this unusual British Value is listed on the posters being sold to providers to evidence to Ofsted how we teach BV to the children?
Sounds like 'do as you are told not as I do'