Ratios continuity of care

[janeskidz]

Hi

I have a parent who has decided to place her 3 year old with me, before and after pre-school. I currently mind a 1 year old and my own 3 year old who goes pre-school in morn as well. Mum has just asked if I can have the 1 year old too as nana can't have her any more. This would mean I have 4 under 5's for and hour in the morning and from 12.30-5 and obviously school holidays. Under new eyfs can I do it? Read something about sibling babies and continuity of care. Would I be ok to risk assess and accept. It's inky for one day a week, poss less.

[sarah707]

Admin understanding of the rules is that you can only have 4 under 5 for continuity of care in exceptional circumstances.

You are talking about taking on 2 new children for new business which is not allowed under the rules.

Note that the variations information in the Eyfs 2014 have not changed.

I hope that helps x

[janeskidz]

Hi the placement of the three year old was agreed first and paperwork signed. However i have jiggled things about so it's no longer an issue. The two children r not being dropped off till 940... After my daughter starts pre-school and the eldest of the girls is dropped at nursery at 1230 ... My own daughter collected similar time but colleague helping me. Meaning I have 3 children all day. The mum of the 1 year old I mind is a shift worker and flexible and will switch days in school holidays as it's only one day a week. So I can now accommodate the two children and keep numbers to 3 which is my preference too. So don't need to use continuity of care clause now anyway but thanks for the input!

[ryanna]

Admin understanding of the rules is that you can only have 4 under 5 for continuity of care in exceptional circumstances.

You are talking about taking on 2 new children for new business which is not allowed under the rules.

Note that the variations information in the Eyfs 2014 have not changed.

I hope that helps x

Hi Sarah, Ofsted have removed the Numbers and ages fact sheet that clarified the continuity of care issue, and several people I know say they have been told by Ofsted and their Early Years team that you can no longer have 4 under 5's except for siblings or cm's own baby, but not to accommodate a temporary change of hours or days as was previously the case. I have emailed Ofsted but I wondered if you knew anything about Ofsted's interpretation of EYFS 2014 changing from 2012?

[Rick]

There is no change, we have seen a letter from DfE who write the EYFS who state that continuity of care still exists

[ryanna]

There is no change, we have seen a letter from DfE who write the EYFS who state that continuity of care still exists

Thanks Rick, is there a link to this letter or somewhere else that confirms that please?

The following email has just been sent to all childminders in Southampton.....

"There has been some confusion recently over what continuity of care actually means with regards to childminding ratios and some childminders have found themselves working over the EYFS ratios.

I was able to have this clarified by an Ofsted compliance Officer last week who said ‘section 3.42 of EYFS applies and should be applied in all cases’, therefore the only time you can go over the recommended ratios is if you are caring for sibling babies or your own baby. 3.30 states that ‘Exceptionally, and where the quality of care and safety and security of children is maintained, changes to ratios may be made.’ I discussed with the inspector about when an existing child’s parent requests an additional day due to work commitments, as it was my understanding that this counted as continuity of care under 3.30 and she said this does not count as continuity of care and would not be acceptable. She said exceptions may be made in an emergency situation or an exceptional circumstance, for example a funeral but obviously a full risk assessment would need to be in place and you would need to be able to demonstrate how you meet the individual needs of all the children. An exceptional case must be for a few hours and not a regular occurrence.

Any childminder who finds themselves in the situation where you are over your ratios will need to make arrangements for children to attend on a different day, where possible, to ensure you remain within ratios at all times or register and employ an assistant for the days where you are over your ratios. If you contact Ofsted enquiring about ratios you will be referred to EYFS for guidance. The compliance officer who I spoke to made it very clear that Ofsted would not find it acceptable if you had more than 3 children in the early years age group and it did not fall under 3.42 of EYFS."

[Rick]

I have printed out the letter form DfE and will show it to an inspector if challenged. DfE wrote the EYFS so it is difficult for anyone to disprove

[ryanna]

I have printed out the letter form DfE and will show it to an inspector if challenged. DfE wrote the EYFS so it is difficult for anyone to disprove

That's what I'd like to do. Where did you get the letter please?

[mama2three]

The factsheet is in the free resources

[ryanna]

The factsheet is in the free resources

Yes but Ofsted document 120117 ‘Numbers and ages of children providers on the Early Years and Childcare Registers may care for’ which clarified continuity of care has been removed from the Ofsted website. The link is dead and as far as I can see there's no replacement yet.

[sarah707]

Ofsted have removed most of their factsheets for updating.

However, the wording of the Eyfs 2014 has NOT changed ... I don't understand why Southampton have said this when nothing has changed ...

they are confusing everyone for no good reason when DfE have confirmed that continuity of care is the same as it always was

[ryanna]

Indeed Sarah. It seems someone there had a conversation with an Ofsted Compliance Inspector who gave their personal interpretation and that has been taken as gospel. I have emailed Ofsted but don't hope to get much back other than the standard 'refer to EYFS' response

[ryanna]

Hampshire have now issued the same advice as Southampton (Hampshire Childminding Support is provided by Pacey)

Variations Advice | Hampshire Childminding Support

[ryanna]

Ofsted have removed most of their factsheets for updating.

However, the wording of the Eyfs 2014 has NOT changed ... I don't understand why Southampton have said this when nothing has changed ...

they are confusing everyone for no good reason when DfE have confirmed that continuity of care is the same as it always was

Because the words 'continuity of care' have been removed

[tori4]

Following with interest and total confusion

[Simona]

Ryanna.....The words 'continuity of care' were never there ...and neither were new business...this is all started here and continues to produce info sharing that is very confusing while admin say they have all the info....only here I hear the word 'confused'...nowhere else.
4 under 5 is allowed ...until we are told otherwise and can be used with a good RA and parental permission

Comparing what one LA does against another is counterproductive...each of the 152 LAs have their own rules....some very fanciful

Rick you say you have a letter from the DfE...when asked to share you avoided the question...why?
this is the forum for sharing info...is it not?

you are correct in saying if challenged by an inspector you will show the letter...sharing it would help others too? and ...as I always say... if an inspector says something ask her where is it in the EYFS?


We should keep to the EYFS 2014...which is exactly the same as 2012 version...nothing has changed and not listen to a cm who was told this and that and not spreading worry because her LA has decided how they wish to interpret EYFS against another one.

Ofsted have not removed most of the factsheets ...some have been removed
the ratio for wraparound care in schools has now changed to 1:30.... hence the reason the factsheet is being updated

My personal view is that if we are still confused get Ofsted to clarify...take the matter to OBC...or send those who attend a message and they will raise at their next meeting lets....once and for all...understand what EYFS is all about as cms have differed in opinion since it was revised in 2012

[Rick]

Ryanna.....The words 'continuity of care' were never there ...and neither were new business...this is all started here and continues to produce info sharing that is very confusing while admin say they have all the info....only here I hear the word 'confused'...nowhere else.
4 under 5 is allowed ...until we are told otherwise and can be used with a good RA and parental permission

Comparing what one LA does against another is counterproductive...each of the 152 LAs have their own rules....some very fanciful

Rick you say you have a letter from the DfE...when asked to share you avoided the question...why?
this is the forum for sharing info...is it not?

you are correct in saying if challenged by an inspector you will show the letter...sharing it would help others too? and ...as I always say... if an inspector says something ask her where is it in the EYFS?

We should keep to the EYFS 2014...which is exactly the same as 2012 version...nothing has changed and not listen to a cm who was told this and that and not spreading worry because her LA has decided how they wish to interpret EYFS against another one.

Ofsted have not removed most of the factsheets ...some have been removed
the ratio for wraparound care in schools has now changed to 1:30.... hence the reason the factsheet is being updated

My personal view is that if we are still confused get Ofsted to clarify...take the matter to OBC...or send those who attend a message and they will raise at their next meeting lets....once and for all...understand what EYFS is all about as cms have differed in opinion since it was revised in 2012

Simona, I'm sorry I didn't see that request for the letter, I sometimes miss things as I am very busy at the moment. It was not a malicious avoidance. I can upload later.

The forum is and always will be a place to share information.

If members are confused we always help them out. I don't think it's fair to imply we give out misleading information. All members are able to give input and If we see mis- information we help members get the right information.

[Simona]

Simona, I'm sorry I didn't see that request for the letter, I sometimes miss things as I am very busy at the moment. It was not a malicious avoidance. I can upload later.

The forum is and always will be a place to share information.

If members are confused we always help them out. I don't think it's fair to imply we give out misleading information. All members are able to give input and If we see mis- information we help members get the right information.

Rick...I would be happy to see the letter as you say 'we have seen it' but I don't think it has been shared here? ...I do appreciate you are busy and if you signpost I will try to find it myself in time for Thursday

I was referring to 'ratio and self variations'...this is the most asked question and many cms say they are confused
There is an Ofsted factsheet where examples are given when cms can self variate with confidence as long as they RA etc etc

This has now been in EYFS 2012 and 2014 but still causing confusion...we know the terminology is grey and maybe we could address it again at OBC
I did raise it at the April London meeting so it has been asked before but we need to get it clarified once and for all for everyone's benefit

[ryanna]

Ryanna.....The words 'continuity of care' were never there ...and neither were new business...this is all started here and continues to produce info sharing that is very confusing while admin say they have all the info....only here I hear the word 'confused'...nowhere else.
4 under 5 is allowed ...until we are told otherwise and can be used with a good RA and parental permission

Comparing what one LA does against another is counterproductive...each of the 152 LAs have their own rules....some very fanciful

Rick you say you have a letter from the DfE...when asked to share you avoided the question...why?
this is the forum for sharing info...is it not?

you are correct in saying if challenged by an inspector you will show the letter...sharing it would help others too? and ...as I always say... if an inspector says something ask her where is it in the EYFS?


We should keep to the EYFS 2014...which is exactly the same as 2012 version...nothing has changed and not listen to a cm who was told this and that and not spreading worry because her LA has decided how they wish to interpret EYFS against another one.

Ofsted have not removed most of the factsheets ...some have been removed
the ratio for wraparound care in schools has now changed to 1:30.... hence the reason the factsheet is being updated

My personal view is that if we are still confused get Ofsted to clarify...take the matter to OBC...or send those who attend a message and they will raise at their next meeting lets....once and for all...understand what EYFS is all about as cms have differed in opinion since it was revised in 2012

The continuity of care statement was in the Number and Ages factsheet which has been removed. (We assume for updating, although when I enquired with Ofsted they wouldn't say whether it was being replaced). Until such time as there is something official from Ofsted addressing continuity of care, which as you say is not mentioned at all in either EYFS 2012 or 2014, this is the advice that both Trio in Southampton and now Pacey in Hampshire have sent out.

I apologise for spreading worry, I won't bother sharing potentially important information or asking for help here again.

[Simona]

The continuity of care statement was in the Number and Ages factsheet which has been removed. (We assume for updating, although when I enquired with Ofsted they wouldn't say whether it was being replaced). Until such time as there is something official from Ofsted addressing continuity of care, which as you say is not mentioned at all in either EYFS 2012 or 2014, this is the advice that both Trio in Southampton and now Pacey in Hampshire have sent out.

I apologise for spreading worry, I won't bother sharing potentially important information or asking for help here again.

Please be reassured you are not spreading worry just sharing what is being said in your area
that factsheet has been removed but we have not been told not to use it but you say Trio and pacey are advising...I have no pacey or Trio in my area so maybe my LA will say something?

What I am questioning is Ofsted changing the guidance at short notice...variations have to be changed in the EYFS first by the DfE and Ofsted follow that guidance...they are not the policy makers...the govt is...that was my message

Maybe I'll tweet to pacey and clarify