Is it illegal to look after a 4 year old for 3 hours a day without registration?

**Chatterbox Childcare** · 13-07-2014, 06:49 PM

If you give up your registration then you will lose the right to accept childcare vouchers and the parents will lose any tax credits or help from the govert.

Why not keep your registration open? Confused as why you wouldn't want to be covered by insurance. If you didn't have it, the parent could still sue you and you could potentially loose everything you have, house, car etc...

**Cpgp** · 15-07-2014, 09:43 AM

Can anyone explain why will I loose my house (rented) and a car (I don't have one) if I don't have a CM insurance?

Basically, the parents need me to collect this child from my child's school and look after him from 3-6. That is it.
I don't want to bother with paying for registration, paying for insurance and doing paperwork and planning, observations, whatever.
The child is fine and normal. I look after him since babyhood.

The parents don't use vouchers or claim WTC.
They don't care about Ofsted and paperwork.
And why would they sue me for ?

**rickysmiths** · 15-07-2014, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Cpgp

Can anyone explain why will I loose my house (rented) and a car (I don't have one) if I don't have a CM insurance?

Basically, the parents need me to collect this child from my child's school and look after him from 3-6. That is it.
I don't want to bother with paying for registration, paying for insurance and doing paperwork and planning, observations, whatever.
The child is fine and normal. I look after him since babyhood.

The parents don't use vouchers or claim WTC.
They don't care about Ofsted and paperwork.
And why would they sue me for ?

If the child had a serious accident when they were with you and unfortunately accidents do happen at the least expected times and even to the most angelic children. ?

No insurance would mean they could sue you privately and if you didn't have the cash they could force you to sell any assets you have to get the cash. Not rocket science really and not a risk I would ever take if it could affect my family.

Personally if you are so determined to provide this care I would do it at the child's home at least they would have all their toys etc there.

**Cpgp** · 15-07-2014, 10:01 AM

And what happens to nannies and babysitters? Do they have insurance?

I am not willing to go to the child's house. My daughter is older and she needs her things. Child comes to me for 4 years, not changing this to go to his house now. Also, meals are a big deal too as I will not cook at other people's house either.

**rickysmiths** · 15-07-2014, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Cpgp

And what happens to nannies and babysitters? Do they have insurance?

I am not willing to go to the child's house. My daughter is older and she needs her things. Child comes to me for 4 years, not changing this to go to his house now. Also, meals are a big deal too as I will not cook at other people's house either.

Nannies have PLI insurance yes. I think babysitting for an evening in someones house is different. However saying that my teenagers were covered by my Employers PLI by being registered as my Assistants and having done 12 First Aid Course. and completing a Pacey Babysitting form. I am also covered as long as I have a signed Pacey Babysitting form.

Both my children were not allowed to babysit until they had done the full First Aid I would rather err on the side of being covered personally.

It is your choice but you do need to bear in mind what would happen if the worst happened. If you are prepared to take that risk then go ahead. I am actually surprised that if these parents have been with you as a cm for so long that they would be prepared to let their son keep coming if you were not fully registered and insured. Have you told them what the situation is if you de register?

**Ripeberry** · 15-07-2014, 10:27 AM

CpgP, you are not doing yourself any favors. Either keep your insurance and registration or be a full time nanny at that parent's house. I'm sure your daughter does not need a whole house of toys just for a few hours work? Confused as to why you are willing to put yourself at risk? Working from parents home is much nicer and you can keep yours tidy

**Cpgp** · 15-07-2014, 10:45 AM

I don't think parents wants someone in their house, they looked for a CM from the start, to send the child to somebody else's house.
I was in the process of registering when they found me and the baby was 2 months old. They were looking for anyone, they knew nothing about Ofsted or anything.
I educated them and started unregistered until my registration came through.
I am just fed up with paperwork, that is all. Don't want to have inspections either.

**shortstuff** · 15-07-2014, 10:47 AM

Sorry cpgp but you are asking a bunch of people who do think its worth it to stay registered so im not quite sure what answers you would like? :-)

**Ripeberry** · 15-07-2014, 10:52 AM

So you want to be an illegal minder. Basically? Carry on if you want, but don't EVER call yourself a 'Childminder'. We all have a reputation to uphold and that is why we put up with paperwork and the inspections. You can have it all one way.

**rickysmiths** · 15-07-2014, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Cpgp

I don't think parents wants someone in their house, they looked for a CM from the start, to send the child to somebody else's house.
I was in the process of registering when they found me and the baby was 2 months old. They were looking for anyone, they knew nothing about Ofsted or anything.
I educated them and started unregistered until my registration came through.
I am just fed up with paperwork, that is all. Don't want to have inspections either.

Really so you were working as an unregisterd babysitter before you even started!! I'm sorry but you make me laugh. You want to earn the money but you don't want to do the work!!

Simple then go to their house and be their Nanny or Babysitter. You have been told why you would be foolish to do this in your own home so if you go ahead then you will know the risks you take.

Frankly I am not surprised that Childminding didn't suit you if you can't see the pitfalls of doing what you propose to do.

**Mouse** · 15-07-2014, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Ripeberry

So you want to be an illegal minder. Basically? Carry on if you want, but don't EVER call yourself a 'Childminder'. We all have a reputation to uphold and that is why we put up with paperwork and the inspections. You can have it all one way.

That is very harsh. If read the relevant fact sheets you will understand that you are currently able to look after children for up to 2 hours a day without being registered, and to receive money for it. From Sept this will be increased to 3 hours. You are also allowed to call yourself a childminder as by definition, a childminder is someone who looks after children who are not related to them for reward in a home, usually their own. Nowhere does it say that you can only call yourself a childminder if you register with Ofsted.

**rickysmiths** · 15-07-2014, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Mouse

That is very harsh. If read the relevant fact sheets you will understand that you are currently able to look after children for up to 2 hours a day without being registered, and to receive money for it. From Sept this will be increased to 3 hours. You are also allowed to call yourself a childminder as by definition, a childminder is someone who looks after children who are not related to them for reward in a home, usually their own. Nowhere does it say that you can only call yourself a childminder if you register with Ofsted.

That has not been confirmed yet and is not in the 2014 EYFS.

I think it is the general attitude that has upset. At the moment and for the foreseeable future you can not look after a child in your own home for more than 2 hours and be paid. So the OP can not legally do what she is proposing to do.

**Mouse** · 15-07-2014, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by rickysmiths

That has not been confirmed yet and is not in the 2014 EYFS.

I think it is the general attitude that has upset. At the moment and for the foreseeable future you can not look after a child in your own home for more than 2 hours and be paid. So the OP can not legally do what she is proposing to do.

Fair point, although I don't think the 2 hour rule is mentioned in the 2012 EYFS document, is it?

I think the point I have been trying to make through this thread is that there ARE circumstances where someone could legally look after children, in their own home, for reward and call themselves a childminder.
I agree that the number of hours is up for debate at the moment, and as such is limited to 2 hours, but the general assumption is that this will be increased to 3 hours from Sept (although I suppose anything could change now that Truss & Gove have gone). If the OP checked on the ruling in Sept, she may find she's limited to 2 hours, in which case she couldn't do what she proposes, or she may find it's increased to 3 hours and she can

**Ripeberry** · 15-07-2014, 12:07 PM

Also when things go wrong with people who do this, they are lumped together with the childminders who are registered!

**Cpgp** · 15-07-2014, 12:27 PM

To my defense I came here to find out info about doing it legally, didn't want to call myself a childminder anymore and would still fill in my self employment assessments.
It's clear from my posts.

Simona · 15-07-2014, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Cpgp

To my defense I came here to find out info about doing it legally, didn't want to call myself a childminder anymore and would still fill in my self employment assessments.
It's clear from my posts.

Yes it was and you have thought of everything...so if you decide to deregister that will be your choice
Some CMs may want to keep up their registration and insurance ...others prefer not to

We obviously differ in opinion and that may be confusing...why not ring Ofsted and ask for advice
Also approach HMRC and tell them what you intend to do...their advice will be the one that matters most
There are plenty of people who have a PAYE job and a self employed one

Good luck

**Cpgp** · 15-07-2014, 06:45 PM

Spoke to parents and apparently would be the 3 hours after school and a few extra hours during Christmas and some of the half terms. No Easter/ Summer holidays at all.
Then I could probably do the extra hours at their place. As self employed childcare.
Still thinking if it is worth.

**Jayse74** · 15-07-2014, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Simona

I was thinking of grandparents who look after their own grandchildren but also take on others for whose care they get paid...(there are a few).....those are CMs?

My view is that whatever people call themselves 'will' matter .....after years and years of trying to make people understand what a CM is ...and does...arguing about a change to our title or not....all will be lost because anyone wishing to avoid the stress of regulation and the burden of compliance will decide to call themselves a CM and care for children without any of the basic training like child protection and no insurance

I suppose parents will opt for unregulated care because it will be cheaper?
I give credit to PLA for stating the obvious for a long time then

I will be curious to find out how much these unregulated people charge ...and from which angle we will be able to debate the 'high quality and affordable' childcare ?
I wonder what the representing associations will come up with when thousands of carers pop up as CMs...

Very sad that we can take it so lightly...I know the vast majority were against upping the hours from 2 to 3 in the consultation but again we were side lined in favour of political gain...sorry for going on but this gets me.

Exactly what I am thinking all the time!

**bunyip** · 17-07-2014, 09:16 AM

Without all the vitriol and defensive attitude towards the word, "childminder", this is what the OP has asked:-

Originally Posted by Cpgp

So, I have one client only that from September will start school and will require after school care 3-6pm.
If I cancel my registration, will I be doing nothing wrong? As long as I don't work after 6pm and school holidays. Is that right?
If so, what title would I use on my self employment tax return?
Where can I find official info about it?

Can s/he legally care for 1 or more child outside the parents' home, for reward? Yes, see current regulations and Ofsted publications for details, and keep checking cos the regs look likely to change. (Though I don't quite figure the relevance of the bit about "...after 6pm and school holidays..." tbh.

)

What title should s/he use on his/her HMRC self-assessment form? Whatever HMRC will be accept. They are a law unto themselves, so call and ask them.

Where can s/he find official info about it? Ask Ofsted and HMRC.

Personally I wouldn't want to do it, and I think it is a small but unnecessarily foolhardy risk to go into it without access to insurance. But that's me - and not what the OP asked. It's a bit contrary to call it "illegal" when it is, by Ofsted's definition, perfectly legal. The OP is in fact checking what s/he can do within the law, including paying tax, and by an extension of this logic, it is reasonable to assume s/he does not intend to be making any fraudulent benefit claims either.

We may or may not like it, but it is how things are. Face it, a lot of CMs are just as affronted by the very existence of registered nannies, nurseries and even those parents who "lose us money" by having the temerity to look after their own children. The unregistered childcare market is a fact of life. Parents choose it for many reasons, including low cost and convenience. But remember the cost of a registered CM is largely due to what many would perceive as over-regulation. There are also a lot of parents who just want care, plain and simple, whilst allowing their child to still have something like a childhood. They don't want all the bells and whistles, paperwork, 'educational' aspects, and government agenda, and the only way they can get what they want is through unregistered care. So CMs banging the drum that bit too hard for EYFS, learning, development, education, etc. serves only to promote unregistered childcare.

Say a big "hi" to the Law of Unintended Consequences.

As for the job title, I guess s/he could call him/herself a childminder, babysitter, child-carer or even a pickled blueberry if she wished. None of those titles have any protected status, just so long as there is no attempt to mislead. Job titles only really have legal protection against their misuse where they carry some intrinsic statutory powers (such as police officer or the military) or belong to the old 'true' professions, (such as the law/clergy/higher education.) The fact that every Tom, Dick and Harriet (CMs included) in any sort of job these days is labouring under the pretentious fallacy that they are in a 'profession' may indeed confuse the matter, but it happens to be utterly irrelevant.

As for the association with the term "childminder" giving registered CMs a bad name, well............... 9 out of 10 people I know who give CMing a bad name are........er...........well......... registered CMs.

The main thing that is not allowed (and the OP shows no intention of doing this) is to use the term "Regisered Childminder". That would probably incur the intervention of Ofsted, Trading Standards and possible the Advertising Standards Authority, as it would be a deliberate misrepresentation, and imply the false expectation of certain standards and parental access to funding, tax credits, etc.

Simona · 17-07-2014, 11:11 AM

I hope this is a forum where we express our opinions and respect the way we all interpret things...so vitriol is not really appropriate here...no one is being nasty just offering individual support

Is it wrong to want to defend the registered CMs?...hope not...but there is room for people to call themselves what they like within the legislation and regulation...whether they are self employed or otherwise

Are HMRC a law onto themselves?...I don't see it that way...the name CM does not appear anywhere in my tax return as I have chosen a name that encompasses all I do in the profession...perfectly legal...what's in a name?

We have suggested that it is up to the original poster Cpgp to reflect on what is good for her in terms of registration, insurance etc etc and have suggested approaching both Ofsted and HMRC

I hope Cpgp will come to a satisfactory decision