Is it illegal to look after a 4 year old for 3 hours a day without registration?
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  1. #1
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    Default Is it illegal to look after a 4 year old for 3 hours a day without registration?

    Not at the child's home? I mean, as a CM not a nanny?

  2. #2
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpgp View Post
    Not at the child's home? I mean, as a CM not a nanny?
    It is illegal under the EYFS 2012 but not in the revised 2014 because the govt has increased the hours...anything over 3 hrs will require registration

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    So, I have one client only that from September will start school and will require after school care 3-6pm.
    If I cancel my registration, will I be doing nothing wrong? As long as I don't work after 6pm and school holidays. Is that right?
    If so, what title would I use on my self employment tax return?
    Where can I find official info about it?

  4. #4
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpgp View Post
    So, I have one client only that from September will start school and will require after school care 3-6pm.
    If I cancel my registration, will I be doing nothing wrong? As long as I don't work after 6pm and school holidays. Is that right?
    If so, what title would I use on my self employment tax return?
    Where can I find official info about it?
    There is no need to cancel your registration...if you do... think carefully how you 'may' need to reapply in future if you want to...via an agency?...none of us can say what can happen?

    Registered carers have the advantage of being CRBd, trained in both child protection and First Aid...and being insured
    The hours you work are irrelevant as long as you do not care for children for more that 3 hours a day

    The new rules are really for those thinking of helping each other...parents and friends or for those who do not wish to become full blown registered CMs

    I think that those who care for children without registration do that for a little bit of extra money...would they be self employed and give you a title? I am not sure about that so cannot comment...it depends on whether you earn enough to pay taxes I would have thought?


    You can find all the info in the 'More Affordable Childcare' document on the gov.uk website where these changes are laid out....also the EYFs can be of help


    https://www.gov.uk/
    Good luck

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    It is illegal under the EYFS 2012 but not in the revised 2014 because the govt has increased the hours...anything over 3 hrs will require registration
    The three hours was a proposal and has not yet been passed into law, nothing in the eyfs states the three hours will apply in September.

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    I am absolutely sure I don't want to be a CM anymore and I will start a new job during school hours. The job requires me to be up to date with police checks, first aid, safeguarding, children's development etc....the only thing I won't have is CM insurance but I have never used mine.
    Even if things go wrong, I will not be back to CMinding, I am sure.
    The implications of keeping my registration open is insurance and ofsted fees, paperwork and inspections.
    Why would I do it for 3 hours a day for one 4 year old?
    Even if I don't need to pay any taxes I will have to fill a return, won't I?
    Maybe I can call myself babysitter once I'm not registered anymore?

  8. #7
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpgp View Post
    I am absolutely sure I don't want to be a CM anymore and I will start a new job during school hours. The job requires me to be up to date with police checks, first aid, safeguarding, children's development etc....the only thing I won't have is CM insurance but I have never used mine.
    Even if things go wrong, I will not be back to CMinding, I am sure.
    The implications of keeping my registration open is insurance and ofsted fees, paperwork and inspections.
    Why would I do it for 3 hours a day for one 4 year old?
    Even if I don't need to pay any taxes I will have to fill a return, won't I?
    Maybe I can call myself babysitter once I'm not registered anymore?
    You have considered every angle so deregistration will be right for you

    Blue bear...I recall the 3 hours being in a consultation
    The govt has said they will increase the care to 3 hrs without registration...I believe that comes under Ofsted regulation/registration not legislation
    I understand that will become effective from Sept ...my interpretation of course

    More info here...especially on page 23 and 34

    https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._Childcare.pdf

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    Will you never work more than 3 hours? What about strike days, inset days, snow days, unforeseen events, schools closing early for parents evenings? The list goes on.

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    I will have to have another chat with parents and make sure they need the 3 after school hours only. Will mention the other circumstances.
    Thanks

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    I'm not 100% sure how HMRC would handle this. I'd tend to err on the side of caution and assume they will continue to treat you as self-employed and keep on requesting you to complete your annual self-assessment. Remember, if they consider you to be self-employed, they may fine you for not doing self-assessment, irrespective of whether you owe any tax. It might be beneficial to keep paying self-employed NI contributions, otherwise your access to benefits and state pension may be severely restricted in future.

    A friend of mine went self-employed doing computer systems/consultative work. He then shut down the business for a while, living on an inheritance and life insurance income. HMRC kept on sending him demands to complete self-assessment, which he did pretty much as a nil return. They stopped when he started a part-time job with another firm. He later went self-employed again, and tried to re-register, only for HMRC to inform him he was still registered self-employed from previously.

    The moral of the story. Don't expect HMRC to make sense: it just is what it is.

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    My intention is to continue filling self assessment as self employer, the question was about my self employment title as I wouldn't call myself a childminder if not registered. I think calling myself babysitter would be appropriate if I work 15h a week term time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpgp View Post
    My intention is to continue filling self assessment as self employer, the question was about my self employment title as I wouldn't call myself a childminder if not registered. I think calling myself babysitter would be appropriate if I work 15h a week term time.
    I would still call myself "childminder", just not "registered childminder" (although I note on this year's tax return there's not room to put 'registered' like I normally do, so this year I am simply a childminder'.)

    The legal definition of a childminder is someone who looks after children in the home for reward, which is what you will be doing.

    Despite what many people think, you can be a childminder without being registered.

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  16. #13
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpgp View Post
    My intention is to continue filling self assessment as self employer, the question was about my self employment title as I wouldn't call myself a childminder if not registered. I think calling myself babysitter would be appropriate if I work 15h a week term time.
    You can call yourself a 'childcare provider' and that will cover many roles
    if in doubt ring HMRC helpline and I am sure they will advise you...you won't be the only one being self employed and also having a job under PAYE...all HMRC is interested in is you declaring your incomes from any source and paying appropriate taxes if applicable

    Good luck

    Mouse...a bit puzzled by your statement that people can childmind without being registered?
    I thought cms fought hard against unregulated CMs but now it is possible to do for 3 hrs per day...maybe I missed your point

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    You can call yourself a 'childcare provider' and that will cover many roles
    if in doubt ring HMRC helpline and I am sure they will advise you...you won't be the only one being self employed and also having a job under PAYE...all HMRC is interested in is you declaring your incomes from any source and paying appropriate taxes if applicable

    Good luck

    Mouse...a bit puzzled by your statement that people can childmind without being registered?
    I thought cms fought hard against unregulated CMs but now it is possible to do for 3 hrs per day...maybe I missed your point
    The definition of a childminder is:

    Childminder
    A person providing care for one or more children aged between birth and 18 to whom they are not related for reward in someone’s home – usually their own.

    So, by definition, even if you only looked after over 8s, or only looked after children for less than 2 hours a day (currently), you are a childminder.

    But, if you do only look after those groups, you do not need to register with Ofsted.

    Therefore, you could legitimately be a childminder, but not an Ofsted registered childminder.
    Last edited by Mouse; 12-07-2014 at 09:48 PM.

  18. #15
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    The definition of a childminder is:

    Childminder
    A person providing care for one or more children aged between birth and 18 to whom they are not related for reward in someone’s home – usually their own.

    So, by definition, even if you only looked after over 8s, or only looked after children for less than 2 hours a day (currently), you are a childminder.

    But, if you do only look after those groups, you do not need to register with Ofsted.

    Therefore, you would be a childminder, but not an Ofsted registered childminder.
    Got you!!!
    So from Sept 2014 anyone looking after children for 3 hours...be parents or grandparents or friends or neighbours...will they call themselves a CM?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simona View Post
    Got you!!!
    So from Sept 2014 anyone looking after children for 3 hours...be parents or grandparents or friends or neighbours...will they call themselves a CM?
    Grandparents caring only for grandchildren can't be called childminders as the definition is caring for a child 'to whom they are not related'.

    I don't know what people will call themselves from Sept 2014. What I am saying is that going by the definition of a childminder and by the 'registration not required' information, it is already possible for someone to be classed as a childminder, but not be registered.

  20. #17
    Simona Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouse View Post
    Grandparents caring only for grandchildren can't be called childminders as the definition is caring for a child 'to whom they are not related'.

    I don't know what people will call themselves from Sept 2014. What I am saying is that going by the definition of a childminder and by the 'registration not required' information, it is already possible for someone to be classed as a childminder, but not be registered.
    I was thinking of grandparents who look after their own grandchildren but also take on others for whose care they get paid...(there are a few).....those are CMs?

    My view is that whatever people call themselves 'will' matter .....after years and years of trying to make people understand what a CM is ...and does...arguing about a change to our title or not....all will be lost because anyone wishing to avoid the stress of regulation and the burden of compliance will decide to call themselves a CM and care for children without any of the basic training like child protection and no insurance

    I suppose parents will opt for unregulated care because it will be cheaper?
    I give credit to PLA for stating the obvious for a long time then

    I will be curious to find out how much these unregulated people charge ...and from which angle we will be able to debate the 'high quality and affordable' childcare ?
    I wonder what the representing associations will come up with when thousands of carers pop up as CMs...

    Very sad that we can take it so lightly...I know the vast majority were against upping the hours from 2 to 3 in the consultation but again we were side lined in favour of political gain...sorry for going on but this gets me.

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  22. #18
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    I thought you couldn't ask for payment?
    Need a laugh? Visit my website: www.unclegargy.deviantART.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpgp View Post
    I am absolutely sure I don't want to be a CM anymore and I will start a new job during school hours. The job requires me to be up to date with police checks, first aid, safeguarding, children's development etc....the only thing I won't have is CM insurance but I have never used mine.
    Even if things go wrong, I will not be back to CMinding, I am sure.
    The implications of keeping my registration open is insurance and ofsted fees, paperwork and inspections.
    Why would I do it for 3 hours a day for one 4 year old?
    Even if I don't need to pay any taxes I will have to fill a return, won't I?
    Maybe I can call myself babysitter once I'm not registered anymore?
    That doesn't mean you may not need to in the future. If something were to go wrong would you be prepared to possibly loose your home over it? I know I would not for 3 hours a day anyway!!

    If I were you giving up cm then I certainly would bother with 3 hours a night term time only you would make more in the moth babysitting for others in there homes for odd evenings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ripeberry View Post
    I thought you couldn't ask for payment?
    Yes you can. If you only look after over 8s, or only look after children for up to 2 hours a day you can charge for it & not have to be registered with Ofsted. You would have to registered with the tax office as self employed though.

 

 
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