How much per hour for 3-4 and 2 year funding

[Angela234]

Hi I'm in the process of offering 2 year and 3-4 year funding how much will I get per hour just wondering if I will lose money my fee's are going up to £4.00 hour in September I hold level 3 qualification and have a good Ofsted rating. Or does the rate vary in different areas
Thanks
Angela

[loocyloo]

the only people who can answer your question is your LA !!!

good luck! in my LA different rates are also paid to different areas due to 'areas of deprivation' and also different rates to different settings such as preschools/nurseries and childminders !!!!

a few of my children have just used their funding with me, others started just using the funded sessions and then added extra paid for hours, and others were already with me and took the funding for some of their term time hours.

[AliceK]

I can't afford to do the funding as our LA pay so far below my hourly rate. We are in one of the most affluent areas yet we are the least paid for funding

xxxx

[Mouse]

You need to check with your Local Authority to see what they pay.

My LA pays less than I charge for 3 & 4yr olds, so I lose money. I will only do a maximum of 6 hours funded per day to limit the amount I lose out on.

[Angela234]

Thanks for your replies had an email saying will get a form to return then they will let me know how much
Form is mainly asking levels of qualifications of staff so being level 3 I don't expect to cover my fee's well see
Thanks

[VeggieSausage]

Here funded rate is £3.90 and my rate is £5/£5.50 so it does leave us worse off.....

[Tazmin68]

Hi Here the 3/4 year old funding is £3.59 per hour and 2 year old funding is £4.95. It depends on your local authority and if child lives in a deprived area then the 3/4 funding has a top up. My hourly rate is £3.50 so it's not too bad here.

[MrsP2C]

My LA pay £3.95 for 3-4yrs & £4.25 for 2 yrs but my hourly rate is £6ph so I don't offer it

[Simona]

Thanks for your replies had an email saying will get a form to return then they will let me know how much
Form is mainly asking levels of qualifications of staff so being level 3 I don't expect to cover my fee's well see
Thanks

You can find out your local rate by ringing the LA Finance dept and they will tell you what they fund for 2 yo and then for 3/4
Usually the 2 yo funding is higher but in many LAs it drops to unacceptable levels so many Cms are not drawing the funding....in my area it is £6.10 then drops to £3.50 for 3/4 yo...so a huge loss.

The DfE has also a 'comparison table' so you can check what each LA funds...I was looking for it for you but cannot pin it down at the moment

Your qualifications will have no bearing and your LA knows they must not put conditions on Cms...so hope they are not doing that to you

On another note ...the DfE has launched this consultation on 'pupil premium' and 2 yo funding
I have posted it in another thread but here it is
This one is really worth doing so take a look...sounds like more money for those who draw funding


https://www.gov.uk/government/consul...or-2-year-olds

[Angela234]

I found out this afternoon 2 year funding is £4.85 an hour shes not sure about 3 -4 year as it varies throughout the county will now when I send back the forms I charge £4 from Sept so im happy with 2 year price
thanks for all your replies

[Simona]

I found out this afternoon 2 year funding is £4.85 an hour shes not sure about 3 -4 year as it varies throughout the county will now when I send back the forms I charge £4 from Sept so im happy with 2 year price
thanks for all your replies

Thank you for your feedback
Rather annoying for thousands of CMs that some LAs actually pay 'above' the going rate while others well below...consistency is not the LAs' forte!!!

[bunyip]

IIRC, ours is £3.77 at 3-4 years; £5+ a few pennies at 2yo.

We've seen a good few local nurseries fiddling around with the balance of children in order to maximise the profit from 2yo's since some parts of the area are pretty depraved (surely, "deprived" - edit ). They swap rooms so they get lots of 2yo's in the bigger room and are "so sorry" to have to give notice to 3-4yo's as a result.

Funded CMs are frequently left picking up the pieces so the less profitable 3-4's get some sort of care.

It's a moot point as to whether we can say we're "losing money" by taking on a child whose funded rate fails to match our usual fees. If the only business out there is funded children, then you're truly losing money by refusing it. (Self-Employed Syndrome always insists the grass is greener elsewhere and everyone is trying to ruin one's business.)

As I see it, there are numerous structural problems with the way funded care is delivered.

It is intended as education, not care. So it is entirely modelled on how nurseries operate. Hence no funding during the holidays or outside 'office hours'. There seems to be a bzarre idea that a parent who can find a CM to look after their lo in the evenings/weekends/school hols has no right to funded provision. Just because a nursery locks its door at 6pm, I can't deliver learning and development after the CBeebies Bedtime Hour is over??? Yet Ofsted expect us to fulfil EYFS irrespective of time or date. It's tempting to notify Ofsted that we only do EYFS during school hours, cos no-one else has to and the LA says they won't fund it cos we're no longer educating on certain days/times.

Our local funding figure is arrived at by dubious means. It's based on an average fee for childcare calculated several years ago from a cross-section of settings. It takes no account of current prices. It's tempting to send back an edited version of my Council Tax bill, saying "I've recalculated this on the basis of what it cost the LA to run services 5 years ago - cheque enclosed." The average includes all the 'satisfactory/requires improvement', 'unsatisfactory', 'totally useless' and 'failed businesses which went to the wall ages ago' settings, which drags down the average, even though such settings are not permitted to deliver funded care.

Sadly, these figures were largely what settings charged for 'non-inclusive' care. ie. Advertised rates to which they'd normally add extra charges for meals, snacks, drinks, playgroups, outings, etc. (all charges which are not allowed to be added to the bill for funded hours.) It's another example of CMs shooting themselves (and all of us) in the foot by trying to look cheap by advertising low headline rate fees to which they add all the additional hidden extra charges. It has had the effect of depressing the funded rates for everyone.

[k1rstie]

I have just started with a funded 2. Currently I get £10 per week more than my weekly charge while they are two, when he get to 3 year old entitlement, my rate would drop to £7 per week than my normal rate. As he will be getting a full years entitlement at the 2 year old rate, it really outweigh the lower rate at 3, especially as at 3 he will probably go to the school nursery.

His hours fit in during the school day, as I am not allowed to strap after schoolers to the roof of the car, and are bums on seats, so was not able to offer a full time space.



To me the funding is a no brainier, as it was a space I could not fill, and after a year at the 2 year rate, then a year at the 3 year rate, I am more than quids in!


As bunyip suggests. If you have a vacancy what is not filled you are not earning anything, while at least if you get the funded rate ( even at a bit less) at least you are earning.

[Simona]

IIRC, ours is £3.77 at 3-4 years; £5+ a few pennies at 2yo.

We've seen a good few local nurseries fiddling around with the balance of children in order to maximise the profit from 2yo's since some parts of the area are pretty depraved (surely, "deprived" - edit ). They swap rooms so they get lots of 2yo's in the bigger room and are "so sorry" to have to give notice to 3-4yo's as a result.

Funded CMs are frequently left picking up the pieces so the less profitable 3-4's get some sort of care.

It's a moot point as to whether we can say we're "losing money" by taking on a child whose funded rate fails to match our usual fees. If the only business out there is funded children, then you're truly losing money by refusing it. (Self-Employed Syndrome always insists the grass is greener elsewhere and everyone is trying to ruin one's business.)

As I see it, there are numerous structural problems with the way funded care is delivered.

It is intended as education, not care. So it is entirely modelled on how nurseries operate. Hence no funding during the holidays or outside 'office hours'. There seems to be a bzarre idea that a parent who can find a CM to look after their lo in the evenings/weekends/school hols has no right to funded provision. Just because a nursery locks its door at 6pm, I can't deliver learning and development after the CBeebies Bedtime Hour is over??? Yet Ofsted expect us to fulfil EYFS irrespective of time or date. It's tempting to notify Ofsted that we only do EYFS during school hours, cos no-one else has to and the LA says they won't fund it cos we're no longer educating on certain days/times.

Our local funding figure is arrived at by dubious means. It's based on an average fee for childcare calculated several years ago from a cross-section of settings. It takes no account of current prices. It's tempting to send back an edited version of my Council Tax bill, saying "I've recalculated this on the basis of what it cost the LA to run services 5 years ago - cheque enclosed." The average includes all the 'satisfactory/requires improvement', 'unsatisfactory', 'totally useless' and 'failed businesses which went to the wall ages ago' settings, which drags down the average, even though such settings are not permitted to deliver funded care.

Sadly, these figures were largely what settings charged for 'non-inclusive' care. ie. Advertised rates to which they'd normally add extra charges for meals, snacks, drinks, playgroups, outings, etc. (all charges which are not allowed to be added to the bill for funded hours.) It's another example of CMs shooting themselves (and all of us) in the foot by trying to look cheap by advertising low headline rate fees to which they add all the additional hidden extra charges. It has had the effect of depressing the funded rates for everyone.

Quite a few issues in your post I feel.


The 'only business' is not just 'funded children'...plenty more out there but all revolves around disadvantaged children
Are we shooting ourselves in the foot? ...I wonder...I see it differently and if we look at how things are moving... maybe the govt ...and LAs are beginning to understand we are not fools and next Sept the tune changes to 'funding by result'. LAs have a lot to think about

Several years ago...I can go back to 1997... funding was different and we could 'top up' which parents did not mind at all until all the rules stepped in and ruined it for all and created an utter mess...look at examples where CMs get more than their current fees compared to those who have to drop 50% of their fees...fair ...I think NOT!.


We are not charities and entitled to be remunerated at the right level...schools do not have the problem of 'underfunding'...on the contrary...their funding is sacrosanct

Each in the sector is looking after its own interests ...CMs must do the same

[Mouse]

I definitely feel I lose money by offering funded hours.

I only offer it for children who are already in my care, so my income goes down as soon as the child is eligible for funding. What are the options? I have no trouble filling my spaces, so could give notice and take on a younger child...but how is that fair on the 3 year old? Or I could tell the parents I won't do funding, in which case the child will probably leave to go to nursery, needing before, after & holiday care, which I don't do...upheaval for the child. Or I can suck it up, accept a reduction in my income and begrudge the fact that I'm subsidising the government's free childcare scheme.

Parents benefit - cheaper childcare. The child benefits - continuity & no upheaval. The LA authority benefits - what does happen to the extra money they receive, but don't pass on to us? Even the government benefits - can claim what a success their scheme is. I certainly don't benefit

[Simona]

I definitely feel I lose money by offering funded hours.

I only offer it for children who are already in my care, so my income goes down as soon as the child is eligible for funding. What are the options? I have no trouble filling my spaces, so could give notice and take on a younger child...but how is that fair on the 3 year old? Or I could tell the parents I won't do funding, in which case the child will probably leave to go to nursery, needing before, after & holiday care, which I don't do...upheaval for the child. Or I can suck it up, accept a reduction in my income and begrudge the fact that I'm subsidising the government's free childcare scheme.

Parents benefit - cheaper childcare. The child benefits - continuity & no upheaval. The LA authority benefits - what does happen to the extra money they receive, but don't pass on to us? Even the government benefits - can claim what a success their scheme is. I certainly don't benefit

The vast majority of Cms lose money drawing funding...those who gain hardly understand the plight of those who have to 'subsidise' education while they get to make a profit on the funding...so families get their free childcare...so called ...while we ...the losers...juggle our business to help the disadvantaged and become disadvantaged ourselves

What happened to Truss promise we should get at least £5.09 from LAs?... as LAs ignore the advice so should cms and look at how nurseries and pre-schools manage the funding and apply conditions to recoup losses

As I said things are moving on and the DfE appears to get the message they have to play ball.

This maybe a cue
Majority of disadvantaged two-year-olds in PVI settings | Nursery World


The grass can be greener on the other side...in my view!

[tashaleee]

Quite a few issues in your post I feel.


The 'only business' is not just 'funded children'...plenty more out there but all revolves around disadvantaged children
Are we shooting ourselves in the foot? ...I wonder...I see it differently and if we look at how things are moving... maybe the govt ...and LAs are beginning to understand we are not fools and next Sept the tune changes to 'funding by result'. LAs have a lot to think about

Several years ago...I can go back to 1997... funding was different and we could 'top up' which parents did not mind at all until all the rules stepped in and ruined it for all and created an utter mess...look at examples where CMs get more than their current fees compared to those who have to drop 50% of their fees...fair ...I think NOT!.


We are not charities and entitled to be remunerated at the right level...schools do not have the problem of 'underfunding'...on the contrary...their funding is sacrosanct

Each in the sector is looking after its own interests ...CMs must do the same

I feel exactly the same way.... and have the same issues ..... we loose out and here we are also given guidance that if we are open say 7-7 we HAVE to offer our funded place during our opening hours I have even argued that I provide only 'care' between say 7-9 and education from 9-4 then care after 4pm ... but still been told I can offer 10 hours per day if thats what the parent wants... no chance of topping up with wrap around care here which is just so wrong :-(