Penalties for unregistered child minding.
Thanks Thanks:  0
Likes Likes:  4
Dislikes Dislikes:  0
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22
  1. #1
    Glitter Guest

    Default Penalties for unregistered child minding.

    I have read about child minders who know people in their area who are not registered and still minding.

    I know some of the dangers of not being a registered child minder (no insurance, parents can not use vouchers etc).
    But what would the penalties be if someone was caught child minding when not registered?
    Would the police become involved or would that person just be told to stop?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    2
    Registered Childminder since
    may 201
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    From what I've heard they are sent a letter telling them the rules and asked to stop. And that's it!! Never heard of any police involvement

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,964
    Registered Childminder since
    Nov 13
    Latest Inspection Grade
    Outstanding
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    There was the case of the two police women who looked after each others children ...they certainly had a court case but I cannot remember what they were charged with?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    29
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I know a lady who minded loads and I mean loads of kids over about 20 years without ever registering ......till Ofsted turned up on her doorstep. They told her if she didnt do the relevant training immediately they had the power to prosecute ......and came back a few months later to inspect her ! This was about 5 years ago so dont know if anything has since changed.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    400
    Registered Childminder since
    Aug 12
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FloraDora View Post
    There was the case of the two police women who looked after each others children ...they certainly had a court case but I cannot remember what they were charged with?
    Did they actually get taken to court? I thought they just got threatened with prosecution if they didn't stop? I also believe it was ofsted who investigated and threatened them with prosecution not the police.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,964
    Registered Childminder since
    Nov 13
    Latest Inspection Grade
    Outstanding
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dawn100 View Post
    Did they actually get taken to court? I thought they just got threatened with prosecution if they didn't stop? I also believe it was ofsted who investigated and threatened them with prosecution not the police.
    BBC NEWS | UK | Review of babysitting ban ordered

    On investigation ...you are right!

    Not much of a deterrent, given all the issues around registration and Ofsted visits. But I expect those that do CM without registration do it for friends. Although on a visit of a prospective parent I made great efforts to show certificates but parents were too interested in how settled and happy their child was, and telling me about how clever LO was, paid no interest in my registration details! So conniving folk could probably easy get away with it!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    457
    Registered Childminder since
    Mar 08
    Latest Inspection Grade
    Good
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FloraDora View Post
    There was the case of the two police women who looked after each others children ...they certainly had a court case but I cannot remember what they were charged with?
    Has I remember because of the publicity regarding two friends who did not actually do it for money,but just looked after each others children. I think now, friends are allowed to look after each others children, if money is not being exchanged. Don't know how one can prove it is, in this situation. They were not taken to court just made a lot of noise regarding red tape etc.

    Ofsted can prosecute but normally advice to train and register.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    at my computer, of course
    Posts
    4,986
    Registered Childminder since
    Nov 11
    Latest Inspection Grade
    Outstanding
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    IIRC, Ofsted argued that the 2 policewomen contravened The Children's Act cos they were babysitting/minding "for reward". Although no money changed hands, Ofsted's logic was that each "rewarded" the other by provided the "service" of caring for the other's child(ren).

    Call me cynical, but I do wonder if the police's lack of interest in pursuing illegal minders might not be a matter of obstinately closing ranks and refusing to cooperate after Ofsted went after "one of their's".

  9. #9
    Simona Guest

    Default

    The duty to pursue 'illegal' c/minders rests with Ofsted as the regulatory body for Childminding.
    if we report an unregistered CM Ofsted will have to carry out visits...whether they do is another matter....the process is that they are told they need to register...not sure how effective it is.

    In that case years ago there were issues of the hours the minded each other children...only 3 were allowed without ofsted intervening...the exchange of goods such as food and drinks was considered 'reward' for the carer...I think I recall something like it

    Buried deep in the archives of this forum is another thread with exactly the same issue raised
    I wrote to Ofsted on that occasion, to the manager responsible for Inforcement and the reply...which I remember I posted here too.... was that Ofsted takes illegal minding seriously and will investigate any reports.

    Unfortunately parents are the ones who take on unregistered CMs because it saves money and there is little paperwork involved...regardless of the fact these people are unregistered and have no Safeguarding training and no insurance

    Many CMs actually call themselves nannies to avoid scrutiny but the fact they work in their own home means they are illegal
    Many have got away with this for years and will continue to do so....it happens in schools every day
    I for instance feel that au pair should be registered with Ofsted too...many of them are totally unskilled and left in charge of children

    This issue is the result of the 'cost of childcare' argument....as we are more and more regulated and our fees go up more and more parents choose unregistered care

    I am not sure what the responsibilities are in terms of the police pursuing unregistered CMs...I am sure there will be a factsheet on the Ofsted website about this...but sure enough it goes on and on and on and they take our business!!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    29
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    That sounds like what must have happened to the lady near me Simona , she used to blatantly sit at toddler group with 5 or 6 under 4s and tell anyone and everyone that she wasnt registered and it wasnt any of ofsteds business. At this time I was there with my own kids and not minding so didnt know anything about monding .....but someone obvs did and reported her

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    at my computer, of course
    Posts
    4,986
    Registered Childminder since
    Nov 11
    Latest Inspection Grade
    Outstanding
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I think the fact that parents (and not ones who are necessarily monsters) use illegal minders says a lot about what they want from childcare, and a lot of what the DofE, Ofsted, etc. are missing the point about.

    A lot of parents don't want their lo's to be educated or made "school ready". Even those who say they do, don't really - it's just that people say what they think they're expected to regard as a 'good thing' as 'good parents' in a liberal so-called democracy.

    I honestly think a lot of parents are happy for their children to be happy and safe whilst they're at work. Many illegal minders can (shock horror) can actually provide this, and some parents prefer it done with a minimum of expense and, dare I say, all the fuss that goes with what they (and a lot of us, tbf) see as unnecessary paperwork. I know we all say we're the best people to look after children cos of all the regulatory stuff, but I'm willing to bet that a lot of us registered CMs would gladly dispense with a lot of the same regulatory stuff and don't believe for one moment that children would be any worse off without it.

    As for insurance, a parent once made a very valid point to me. She said she didn't care if her CM was insured, because she didn't want her child to be insured against harm: she'd just rather he wasn't harmed in the first place!

    The one big point is one that parents don't realise and the authorities ought to be driving it home. A child left with an unregistered provider in breach of The Children's Act remains the responsibility of the parent. So if a child comes to harm whilst with an illegal minder, Social Services can (and should) go straight to the parents to demand answers to some very difficult questions.

    I don't think Ofsted and the police are keen to get involved, cos it's so easy fro illegal minders to have their excuses ready in advance, plus the authorities are reluctant to be seen to be interfering with arrangements "between friends", especially if they cannot prove money is changing hands.

  12. Likes bindy liked this post
  13. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Somerset
    Posts
    4,242
    Registered Childminder since
    may 05
    Latest Inspection Grade
    Outstanding
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    IIRC, Ofsted argued that the 2 policewomen contravened The Children's Act cos they were babysitting/minding "for reward". Although no money changed hands, Ofsted's logic was that each "rewarded" the other by provided the "service" of caring for the other's child(ren).

    Call me cynical, but I do wonder if the police's lack of interest in pursuing illegal minders might not be a matter of obstinately closing ranks and refusing to cooperate after Ofsted went after "one of their's".
    I can't get link to attach but there is an Ofsted document called "childminding for friends" published in 2011 - where it clarifies that if no money changes hand then you don't have to register, even though technically it is payment in kind (I'll look after your kids, you look after mine).

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    400
    Registered Childminder since
    Aug 12
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip View Post
    I think the fact that parents (and not ones who are necessarily monsters) use illegal minders says a lot about what they want from childcare, and a lot of what the DofE, Ofsted, etc. are missing the point about.

    A lot of parents don't want their lo's to be educated or made "school ready". Even those who say they do, don't really - it's just that people say what they think they're expected to regard as a 'good thing' as 'good parents' in a liberal so-called democracy.

    I honestly think a lot of parents are happy for their children to be happy and safe whilst they're at work. Many illegal minders can (shock horror) can actually provide this, and some parents prefer it done with a minimum of expense and, dare I say, all the fuss that goes with what they (and a lot of us, tbf) see as unnecessary paperwork. I know we all say we're the best people to look after children cos of all the regulatory stuff, but I'm willing to bet that a lot of us registered CMs would gladly dispense with a lot of the same regulatory stuff and don't believe for one moment that children would be any worse off without it.

    As for insurance, a parent once made a very valid point to me. She said she didn't care if her CM was insured, because she didn't want her child to be insured against harm: she'd just rather he wasn't harmed in the first place!

    The one big point is one that parents don't realise and the authorities ought to be driving it home. A child left with an unregistered provider in breach of The Children's Act remains the responsibility of the parent. So if a child comes to harm whilst with an illegal minder, Social Services can (and should) go straight to the parents to demand answers to some very difficult questions.

    I don't think Ofsted and the police are keen to get involved, cos it's so easy fro illegal minders to have their excuses ready in advance, plus the authorities are reluctant to be seen to be interfering with arrangements "between friends", especially if they cannot prove money is changing hands.
    I think you make some very good point, I have only had one parent so far show any interest that I'm registered with ofsted or the fact I'm insured most of them when I mention my ofsted report or point out my certifcate say I'm not interested in that its more important that my child is going to be well cared for, more parents have been interested to know if I have a crb but most when I go to show them say I don't need to see it and I don't know what one looks like anyway!

    A friend of mine is a police officer and works in child protection cases so when I saw them today I asked what interest do they have in illegal minders and their response was as far as they were aware it wasn't something that the police got involved in the only reason they could see the police becoming involved was if they believed the children to be at risk, this obviously is just their personal opinion and not necessarily offical. They then went on to the sort of cases they were currently involved in and I could straight away see why the police who are having cuts made everywhere aren't about to investigate unregistered minders when they have far graver things to deal with.
    Another valid point they made was how would you prove it, if your not registered you won't have any paperwork, if you only take cash payments and dont pay it in your bank but use it to make cash purchases its very hard to prove so their wouldn't be any evidence. Nothing say you can't look after children for free so whilst you could prove the childrens attendance from witnesses you still wouldn't be able to prove you were doing anything wrong.

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    South East
    Posts
    978
    Registered Childminder since
    Dec 02
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    The thing I find the strangest is that many do it charge less than us! Many charge the same or more apparently?

  16. #15
    Simona Guest

    Default

    I am beginning to feel I am losing track of the message we are giving out in this thread

    Are we saying it is ok for unregistered carers to operate simply because the police are not bothered to chase them? it is not the police remit to ensure registration...it is Ofsted's remit... but at the whiff of a child protection allegation the police would intervene without hesitation.. I would not want to be in an unregistered carer's shoes in that instance

    Are we saying parents condone unregistered practice because they give no importance to our insurance and Ofsted report...considering the lengths we are going to ensure we do better at inspections? and the cost to have such insurance? or is it that the lower fees unregistered carers charge is what matters most? that is truly affordable but not high quality childcare they are getting

    Is insurance such a little matter to be waved aside by parents? I have never met parents showing that kind of attitude and any who do I would simply refuse to offer my services to...

    I have no doubt that some unregistered carers can offer good service...but they are doing so flaunting regulation and legislation to charge lower fees and pocket money without running a business, paying taxes while we slave and worry to keep up with constant changes and challenges and bashing from the inspectorate...DfE et al?

    Are parents really not interested in their children being 'educated' and being 'prepared for school' considering many children arrive in schools unprepared due to inadequate provision? and who gets blamed? ...the inadequate Cms and because most parents see early schooling as a saving on childcare costs so can't wait to get the children through the schools doors regardless of how young they are

    if this is the attitude from parents it is also an affront to those CMs who spend their lives getting a BA..MA and EYPS...no wonder we get so little recognition and that is why the govt has decided we are dispensable and better off in agencies who will make huge profits and decimate our home based childcare

    I doubt very much this kind of attitude is what they get in Denmark and Sweden where you can't get near caring for children unless you have a degree and years of experience... sad really.

  17. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    365
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Totally agree with bunyip on this one. I would happily opt out if ofsted if not for the illegality of it.
    The care of the children would be no different. Actually it would because I wouldn't take so many blooming pictures of the children and be bothered about paperwork.
    My parents are only interested in my ofsted details for tax credits.

  18. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    at my computer, of course
    Posts
    4,986
    Registered Childminder since
    Nov 11
    Latest Inspection Grade
    Outstanding
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I certainly don't condone illegal minding. For one thing, those doing it are avoiding tax and quite possibly making illegal claims for benefits, since they "are not working". They're also avoiding all the regulations, so they aren't going to stick to the ratios, etc. And they gain a 'market advantage' over registered childcarers by avoiding the expense of training and other costs, as well as the time we spend on child records, CPD, etc.

    The biggest contradiction of the UK childcare system is found within the desire to "raise standards". The harder it is to become registered and to operate as a registered CM, the more illegal CMs there will be: who then fall outside the regulatory system, beyond the scope of inspection, operating unseen and by no laws, ratios or standards unless and until something goes wrong. This does nothing to protect children.

    I believe that what families want out of childcare covers a far broader spectrum than Ofsted's narrow and highly prescriptive educational remit. I think a lot of CMs recognise this when they shake their heads in despair about many of the DofE's demands, each time EYFS goes under revision.

    The moment Ofsted took over the regulation and inspection of CMs from social services, the business moved from care-oriented to education-oriented. This was bound to happen since Ofsted are institutionally 'hard-wired' to look at things from an educational perspective. Some parents are OK with this. I've met a few, and they tend to have it all planned out from starting with a highly-graded CM, before "stepping up" to a "proper nursery", so on and so forth through "good schools", clubs, private tutors, etc. until university. I think there's another, slightly larger group of parents who consider Ofsted grades and prefer a "Good/Outstanding" setting, but with very little concept of what is actually measured (and how) by the inspection process.

    But I have to say the vast majority of perfectly good parents are content for their lo to be safely cared for without worrying over their university application ahead of their first steps. Their approach to their children, in layperson's terms, can be summed up as: "let them have a childhood while they can." I recall as a newbie, sitting with a group of CMs who had accrued almost 100 years of CMing experience between them, yet they had hardly ever been asked their Ofsted grade by a client parent, never mind wanting to study their reports.

    I'm not attacking or running down the efforts of childcarers (in any setting) who go get their BAs, foundation degrees, doctorates, etc. But are these qualifications what parents really expect and put their trust in, beyond impressing them a little? Or are these paper qualifications in danger of making us, as an industry, that little bit too insular and self-obsessed? I personally know CMs who, quite frankly, misinterpret shoving their grade/experience/qualifications down parents' throats as parents being genuinely interested and impressed by such things.

    It's a complex subject, but there is a simple, 'quick and dirty' means of measuring the proportions of parents who want care/safety/peace of mind against those who genuinely look for CMs to be private tutors for tots. When parents enquire about our services which of the following statements do they make first (or even at all?) :-
    1. Hi, I'm looking for a CM to look after my son/daughter.
    2. Hi, I'm looking for a CM to educate my son/daughter and make them school-ready.



    Well..............?
    Last edited by bunyip; 27-01-2014 at 08:10 AM.

  19. #18
    Simona Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by yummyripples View Post
    Totally agree with bunyip on this one. I would happily opt out if ofsted if not for the illegality of it.
    The care of the children would be no different. Actually it would because I wouldn't take so many blooming pictures of the children and be bothered about paperwork.
    My parents are only interested in my ofsted details for tax credits.
    It is sad that you feel parents are only interested in your details for tax credits purposes ...but then it would show the difference between childcare in the UK and the rest of the world if that was true...fundamentally we get a lot of things wrong when it comes to putting children first

    You say the care of the children 'would'' be no different with an unregistered provider...I differ with that...I feel it is different, I have witnessed how different it is and all because parents can save a few pennies and supporting the black market by engaging those who have no wish to contribute honestly to society by paying taxes

    You can opt out of Ofsted because from Sept 2014 CMs can join an agency and therefore drop the registration with the inspectorate
    As for paperwork....only the minimum is required ...why is that a hurdle?..
    does it say anywhere we are required to take photos? not really...
    does it say anywhere we are required to do LJs ...not really? in fact Truss said so recently

    Bunyip...be careful what parents wish for...it may become true if this govt gets its way with the proposals they are implementing and regain power in 2015...unless we are careful Cminding may return to what it was 35 years ago...I am watching with interest.
    having been originally registered and trained by Social Services I do miss their experience and knowledge in the field of childcare and the value they put on our profession....would a social worker be able to do that job without qualifications and knowledge?

    You say:
    I'm not attacking or running down the efforts of childcarers (in any setting) who go get their BAs, foundation degrees, doctorates, etc. But are these qualifications what parents really expect and put their trust in, beyond impressing them a little? Or are these paper qualifications in danger of making us, as an industry, that little bit too insular and self-obsessed? I personally know CMs who, quite frankly, misinterpret shoving their grade/experience/qualifications down parents' throats as parents being genuinely interested and impressed by such things.

    Well I feel you are not much impressed by qualifications... you have made that clear many times....insular and obsessed? are they?
    qualifications are a bit more than a piece of paper to impress parents with and I have never heard of anyone 'shoving it' down parents' throat...have you?
    Would I want a phlebotomist to carry out brain surgery on me?...no.

    I wonder why experts such as Nutbrown, Bruce, Moss, Katz, Elfer, Clark, Goldschmied, Pugh, Penn, Duffy and Meggit etc etc, ever bothered to become experts in childcare and pedagogy...why do we bother to follow theorists?

    I have never met a parent who did not value qualifications alongside experience and I would be careful by saying that parents want someone to care and keep their children 'safe' against those who educate for school readiness...the former take a huge risk when it comes to safety and safeguarding with parents' approval

    This is a very good subject to discuss but I find your cynicism spoils it a little....I totally respect your views but you must also give some back to those who feel being qualified in childcare is worthwhile

  20. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    at my computer, of course
    Posts
    4,986
    Registered Childminder since
    Nov 11
    Latest Inspection Grade
    Outstanding
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    It's all rather too easy to write off the opinions and experiences of others by labelling them "cynical", isn't it?

    I'm just about old enough to remember when education was about opening up one's mind to ideas and experiences that are beyond one's own, rather than the pursuit of a means unto an end.

  21. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    400
    Registered Childminder since
    Aug 12
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I don't think anyone on here is condoning illegal cm, im certainly not, but just saying its very hard to prove hence very few get into trouble for it.
    Yes some illegal cm's will offer a very poor service but I also believe that some will care well for the child providing a stimulating enviournment.
    Parents in my experience are more interested in whether I will care for a child and meet their childs needs than me being registered, I don't think this make them a bad parent but many first time parents don't have a grasp on how childcare is regulated. Before being a cm I use to run a toddler group for 10 years and I use to make sure parents were aware of things like what sort of child care was around, how it was regulated, what they were entitled to eg the nursery grant from 3 and parents just didn't have a clue!
    I also think ofsteds reports should not just focus on the education side of things but also on the care of children. When I was inspected I only had one lo on the day ofsted arrived at snack time, then it was time for a nappy change 10 mins of play then its was time for their bottle then they had a 2 hour nap. Ofsted said to me if my paperwork and lj hadn't of been as detailed as it was she would of struggled to even give me a satisfactory as she had seen so little of me developing the child. But surely providing an environment where they are well cared for and their personal needs are met are just as important in a childs development.

    I don't think being highly qualified automatically makes you a better cm, I've been doing my level 3 and don't find I've learnt that much from it esp not when you consider the hours that have been put into it. But I have been on evening courses where I have learnt so much. Also having volunteered in youth work for 10 years, run a toddler group, worked in the care industry and have children of my own I have learnt alot and sometimes IMHO experience can be more valuable than qualifications. I'm not anti qualifications, i don't plan to stop when I have got my level 3 I just hope I learn more from future qualifications than I have from my level 3.

  22. Likes bunyip, sing-low liked this post
 

 
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Quick Links and Advertisements

Important Information Links
Some Useful Quick Links
Advertisements

 

You can also find us on:
Penalties for unregistered child minding. Penalties for unregistered child minding. Penalties for unregistered child minding.

We use cookies to make this site as useful as possible. They are small text files placed in your browser to track usage of our site but they don’t tell us who you are.
By continuing to use this site you are consenting to cookies being placed on your computer. Find out more here: Cookies in Use

Childminding Help and the Childminding Forum are part of Childcare.co.uk