wow some people are unbelievable

[AdeleMarie88]

Perhaps that's the key, rather than providing money, the govt should give parents childcare vouchers that way they can't missuse the tax credits!

[Simona]

Perhaps that's the key, rather than providing money, the govt should give parents childcare vouchers that way they can't missuse the tax credits!

I agree on the vouchers...parents are happy with them because they are in control and accessible to parents regardless of what they earn

Many employers refuse to do them for whatever reason and self employed people cannot access them....so Truss has blamed the previous govt for introducing the system as it stands...well reform it is my advice!
One sure thing about the vouchers is there is no fraud

She had a golden opportunity to reform the present voucher system by making it available to self employed and telling employers: they work so make an effort to join a scheme...the result is the new tax free childcare which is complicated and helps families who earn up to 300,000 and penalises those where one parent is at home caring for their children

I still do not get why cms have to wait for the Tax credits or are left unpaid? sorry if I am being a bit thick on this
if a parent came to me and asked me to be involved in their tax credit or subject me to waiting for their money...I would say no...my only business is to make sure I get paid to sustain my business for which I receive few credits from the govt!

[k-tots]

The voucher system is great...but comes out of the parents wages...not tc....tc need a voucher system where by its the parent that asks for it but the cm claim it like the current voucher scheme

[ja-lula-belli]

That would be ideal

Ja-Lula-Bell*****minding

[Mrsh3103]

It is so simple to abuse the system.... go on the search providers part of the ofsted website, put in postcode, a list of local providers pops up with their URN, phone tax credits, make up a figure per week give URN......... Money in bank, no checks and no questions asked!
The system needs changing

[Simona]

The voucher system is great...but comes out of the parents wages...not tc....tc need a voucher system where by its the parent that asks for it but the cm claim it like the current voucher scheme

It does indeed come from their wages and saves them tax and NI...in addition employers save too....therefore it is a benefit to parents which incidentally we all contribute via our taxes!

Mrsh3103....'IF' the system can be abused so openly and easily I cannot believe the govt has not realised that and done something about it and made sure providers could confirm that parent is using our setting?

Maybe the details parents have to provide to claim should include the provider's email and have clear messages that the DWP would approach the provider for confirmation...it would not be too difficult and not too bureaucratic

[nicjelley]

This is scary if you think about it ....if someone was too use our numbers for fraudulent claims we could seem to be not declaring earning couldny we ? This system needs sorting I cant believe how easy it is but, when I think about it I have 2 fulltimers whos parents claim taxcredits to help with their childcare and have never once in 2 years had a call or letter asking or checking if these children are really with me . And we wonder why this countries in trouble

[Kiddleywinks]

Mrsh3103....'IF' the system can be abused so openly and easily I cannot believe the govt has not realised that and done something about it and made sure providers could confirm that parent is using our setting?

Maybe the details parents have to provide to claim should include the provider's email and have clear messages that the DWP would approach the provider for confirmation...it would not be too difficult and not too bureaucratic

Sadly, there is no 'if' about it Simona, it is being used and abused so easily, and of course the government realise it, they're being told often enough by providers, however, my two penneth is, that it's so widespread now they don't have a clue how to rein it back in!
They don't have enough staff available to check every single claim, so the emphasis now, I believe, is to check existing claims that have changes made, to verify the childcare element.
The reason I say this is because I've had 3 parents change their circumstances in the latter part of last year and I've been contacted about all 3 parents : twice by phone and once had to supply written confirmation of fees, to verify the claim.
The year before, I had 6 parents start, and wasn't contacted once.

It makes you wonder....

[Simona]

Sadly, there is no 'if' about it Simona, it is being used and abused so easily, and of course the government realise it, they're being told often enough by providers, however, my two penneth is, that it's so widespread now they don't have a clue how to rein it back in!
They don't have enough staff available to check every single claim, so the emphasis now, I believe, is to check existing claims that have changes made, to verify the childcare element.
The reason I say this is because I've had 3 parents change their circumstances in the latter part of last year and I've been contacted about all 3 parents : twice by phone and once had to supply written confirmation of fees, to verify the claim.
The year before, I had 6 parents start, and wasn't contacted once.

It makes you wonder....

Well that is truly astonishing
If parents can get to claim benefits just using our URN why would they bother to contact the cm in the first place, ask to confirm the fees and then disappear? I don't get that bit...if someone did that surely it would ring alarm bells?

If fees need to be confirmed to get the benefits then surely it should be provided by the cm directly to the DWP.... quoting the URN to them and the name of the parent who approached us? or is that too simple?

[Kiddleywinks]

It's the chance the fraudsters take...
until recently, checks were rarely done, so many got away with it.
Hopefully now/if more rigorous checks are made - phoning the provider to confirm contract details/ Forwarding a copy of the contract on to the DWP etc, it would put more people off trying to defraud

If, when a child leaves/changes hours, we contact the NFBH to advise, it spurred the DWP to check when a parent also advises they've left/changed provider it would limit the amount of overpayments being 'lost'.
Sadly, again, as many a provider will tell, reporting doesn't seem to generate much, if any, interest

[little chickee]

It is not unheard of near me for parents to ring, claiming to be interested in sending their child to you, and ask for your ofsted number under the pretense of reading your previous ofsted reports, and then actually using your number to claim tax credits.
We were all told by our coordinator to never give our number to anyone until they sign a contract!!
I was gob smacked! Especially considering I live in an area that has lots of high paid individuals!!

I still wouldnt give out my number - I have copies of my inspection printed out - they can read them and hand them back when they come for a visit.

[Simona]

I still wouldnt give out my number - I have copies of my inspection printed out - they can read them and hand them back when they come for a visit.

Our URN is freely available on Ofsted website and local FIS...no point in withdrawing your number ...parents can easily get to it... as for inspection reports they can be read online without us handing them to parents

Kiddleywinks...I have been thinking about this and I feel if the DWP wanted to stop the fraud there are simple steps they can put in place from the moment the parent approaches the provider to the actual false claim and payments...obviously they have not put much effort into it and concentrating on other areas the vile IDS has got in his plans ...appalling really!
I am sure they will blame the previous govt on the failure to address this matter!

[dawn100]

It does indeed come from their wages and saves them tax and NI...in addition employers save too....therefore it is a benefit to parents which incidentally we all contribute via our taxes!

Mrsh3103....'IF' the system can be abused so openly and easily I cannot believe the govt has not realised that and done something about it and made sure providers could confirm that parent is using our setting?

Maybe the details parents have to provide to claim should include the provider's email and have clear messages that the DWP would approach the provider for confirmation...it would not be too difficult and not too bureaucratic

As far as I understand it tax credits are more benefical to those parents on low wages as they will pay upto 70% of childcare costs.
Where as the current voucher system saves parents tax and national insurance which I think I was told when doing the full monthly allocaton is around £70 a month. So no where near as much as tax credits but does help parents who earn too much for tax credits.
So if when parents made tax credit claims they were issued with vouchers that only registered users could cash that would cut alot of fraud.

[dawn100]

Our URN is freely available on Ofsted website and local FIS...no point in withdrawing your number ...parents can easily get to it... as for inspection reports they can be read online without us handing them to parents

Kiddleywinks...I have been thinking about this and I feel if the DWP wanted to stop the fraud there are simple steps they can put in place from the moment the parent approaches the provider to the actual false claim and payments...obviously they have not put much effort into it and concentrating on other areas the vile IDS has got in his plans ...appalling really!
I am sure they will blame the previous govt on the failure to address this matter!

From when I claimed tax credits I needed both the urn and address, this might of changed as was quite a while ago. in my la when you get info from the fis they don't give out exact addresses just the area and I have opted out of my address being published on the ofsted website.

[bunyip]

I find this thread amazing and I am not able to comment on any of it but some of the comments are worrying....not by what is said but by what can be done in the system...sorry not very clear I know.

I have been in childcare for 20 years and never had any involvement with parents who are on benefits, tax credits or whatever...I have never asked them and no one has ever said anything to me about them...I consider that their business and the dept that pays them

A long time ago ...years and years...if any parents applied for help with childcare I used to receive a form to fill in which confirmed the hours the child was attending...I only ever signed 2 forms I recall....then this stopped

I understand parents can use our URN to claim...how? can the system be so simple to allow such practice? surely the govt and Ian Duncan Smith himself cannot launch a war on those on benefits and then allow a system open to improper use?

I'd be surprised if you'd never had clients who are on benefit, even if we disregard Child Benefit, and even in a relatively affluent Borough. I'm not contradicting or questioning the veracity of your belief. But, as you mention, TC claims can always be made without a CM's knowledge and there is no reason on Earth why we should ever know if a client is claiming some other form of benefit.

I think we make the mistake of associating the word "benefits" with unemployment and immigration (little wonder when this mistruth is perpetuated by the overwhelmingly right-wing press.) Yet studies by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation have shown than the majority of Cameron's "hard-working families", far from being rewarded and elevated by the late capitalist labour market, rely on some form of benefit to prop up their flagging wage packets.

Both the Observer and the Torygraph reported in the first half of last year that 20.3 million UK families (64% of all families) were on some kind of benefit, whilst 9.6 million (30% of all families) were dependent on benefits for over half of their income. Since those figures were published, changes to the benefits system have caused some to drop out of claiming benefits, but there is no evidence to suggest these people have moved into employment.

As for how easy it is to claim TCs, I'll repeat the point that I've made before and then go clear my inbox in readiness for another batch of vitriolic PMs. There is very little difference in the way HMRC handle Tax Credits claims and our Income Tax returns: each is a form of 'self-assessment'. HMRC take both types of submission on trust, except that they investigate where they believe there may be genuine cause to distrust the stated circumstances/figures, plus some additional random spot-checks.

Yes, this means the TC system is open to fraud by parents. And, yes, this means the self-assessment tax return system is equally open to fraud by self-employed people, including CMs, who have every opportunity to push through batches of receipts that were not for business expenses, or fail to declare cash-in-hand income. (Yes, that is why the plumber/brickie/sparks et al will all charge you less for cash - geddit now?)

I'm not accusing anybody (though maybe those who have previously sent me defensive/rude PMs have some sort of guilty conscience? ) but I would like to get away from the idea that all parents are evil scroungers and all CMs are angels in whose mouths butter would not melt.

[AdeleMarie88]

Of course your right bunyip, not all CMs are perfect and honest, in the same way that not all parents claim benefits. My concern is that, some people, because it's so easy, fraudulently claim tax credits for childcare costs that they aren't incurring. And to me, although I am not at all a politician and this may not work, it would seem an easy solution to stop fraudulent claims, would be to provide those claiming for tax credits with vouchers instead of actual cash, so that the parent, only has one way to spend them. They could receive the same amount, (up to 80%) but as vouchers.

I know my local authority does something very similar with healthy food vouchers, that can be spent on fruit and vegetables, to ensure their children are getting a balanced diet, and it works exceptionally well!

[Simona]

I'd be surprised if you'd never had clients who are on benefit, even if we disregard Child Benefit, and even in a relatively affluent Borough. I'm not contradicting or questioning the veracity of your belief. But, as you mention, TC claims can always be made without a CM's knowledge and there is no reason on Earth why we should ever know if a client is claiming some other form of benefit.

I think we make the mistake of associating the word "benefits" with unemployment and immigration (little wonder when this mistruth is perpetuated by the overwhelmingly right-wing press.) Yet studies by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation have shown than the majority of Cameron's "hard-working families", far from being rewarded and elevated by the late capitalist labour market, rely on some form of benefit to prop up their flagging wage packets.

Both the Observer and the Torygraph reported in the first half of last year that 20.3 million UK families (64% of all families) were on some kind of benefit, whilst 9.6 million (30% of all families) were dependent on benefits for over half of their income. Since those figures were published, changes to the benefits system have caused some to drop out of claiming benefits, but there is no evidence to suggest these people have moved into employment.

As for how easy it is to claim TCs, I'll repeat the point that I've made before and then go clear my inbox in readiness for another batch of vitriolic PMs. There is very little difference in the way HMRC handle Tax Credits claims and our Income Tax returns: each is a form of 'self-assessment'. HMRC take both types of submission on trust, except that they investigate where they believe there may be genuine cause to distrust the stated circumstances/figures, plus some additional random spot-checks.

Yes, this means the TC system is open to fraud by parents. And, yes, this means the self-assessment tax return system is equally open to fraud by self-employed people, including CMs, who have every opportunity to push through batches of receipts that were not for business expenses, or fail to declare cash-in-hand income. (Yes, that is why the plumber/brickie/sparks et al will all charge you less for cash - geddit now?)

I'm not accusing anybody (though maybe those who have previously sent me defensive/rude PMs have some sort of guilty conscience? ) but I would like to get away from the idea that all parents are evil scroungers and all CMs are angels in whose mouths butter would not melt.

Thank you Bunyip...my comments here were in response to the thread and solely regarding the system and not about parents who claim TC, benefits or anything else they are entitled from the welfare dept.
I did not confuse anything with unemployment or benefits...I was discussing the system
I appreciate that the state provides for people and was not making any judgement or calling them any names following the example of the very govt and also opposition as in scroungers versus skivers...I detest both labels

Indeed even in my affluent borough there are parents entitled to claim from the state ...that has happened to a family a few years ago...their claim was none of my business, they did not abuse the system but claimed what they were entitled to get.
I know of other parents who have claimed but again not my business but they were honest and told me they were receiving money to help with childcare costs and I confirmed this in their form.

What I am against is a system that has obviously been open to abuse for years and the politicians doing nothing about it to ensure that money goes to the very needy.


I am shocked that the system is not able to stop these false claims and, judging by what others are saying, the will to do so is not there
As I said I have been thinking about this because I find it so unbelievable and I know that both the govt and providers could work together and put simple steps in place to make this practice a thing of the past.

I have filled in a few forms in the past for parents who were claiming legitimately ...that form was always followed by a check from the dept who paid...why has it stopped? short of staff?
I am sure employing a few people to stop fraud would pay immensely in return.

[bunyip]

Of course your right bunyip, not all CMs are perfect and honest, in the same way that not all parents claim benefits. My concern is that, some people, because it's so easy, fraudulently claim tax credits for childcare costs that they aren't incurring. And to me, although I am not at all a politician and this may not work, it would seem an easy solution to stop fraudulent claims, would be to provide those claiming for tax credits with vouchers instead of actual cash, so that the parent, only has one way to spend them. They could receive the same amount, (up to 80%) but as vouchers.

I know my local authority does something very similar with healthy food vouchers, that can be spent on fruit and vegetables, to ensure their children are getting a balanced diet, and it works exceptionally well!

I agree, with the proviso that they'd need some way of cashing a limited value of unused vouchers (because TCs are claimed retrospectively, and I've no wish to encourage claimants to delay payments to CMs until HMRC have got around to processing a claim . )

[dawn100]

I'd be surprised if you'd never had clients who are on benefit, even if we disregard Child Benefit, and even in a relatively affluent Borough. I'm not contradicting or questioning the veracity of your belief. But, as you mention, TC claims can always be made without a CM's knowledge and there is no reason on Earth why we should ever know if a client is claiming some other form of benefit.

I think we make the mistake of associating the word "benefits" with unemployment and immigration (little wonder when this mistruth is perpetuated by the overwhelmingly right-wing press.) Yet studies by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation have shown than the majority of Cameron's "hard-working families", far from being rewarded and elevated by the late capitalist labour market, rely on some form of benefit to prop up their flagging wage packets.

Both the Observer and the Torygraph reported in the first half of last year that 20.3 million UK families (64% of all families) were on some kind of benefit, whilst 9.6 million (30% of all families) were dependent on benefits for over half of their income. Since those figures were published, changes to the benefits system have caused some to drop out of claiming benefits, but there is no evidence to suggest these people have moved into employment.

As for how easy it is to claim TCs, I'll repeat the point that I've made before and then go clear my inbox in readiness for another batch of vitriolic PMs. There is very little difference in the way HMRC handle Tax Credits claims and our Income Tax returns: each is a form of 'self-assessment'. HMRC take both types of submission on trust, except that they investigate where they believe there may be genuine cause to distrust the stated circumstances/figures, plus some additional random spot-checks.

Yes, this means the TC system is open to fraud by parents. And, yes, this means the self-assessment tax return system is equally open to fraud by self-employed people, including CMs, who have every opportunity to push through batches of receipts that were not for business expenses, or fail to declare cash-in-hand income. (Yes, that is why the plumber/brickie/sparks et al will all charge you less for cash - geddit now?)

I'm not accusing anybody (though maybe those who have previously sent me defensive/rude PMs have some sort of guilty conscience? ) but I would like to get away from the idea that all parents are evil scroungers and all CMs are angels in whose mouths butter would not melt.

Some very good points, I was at a toddler group the other month a cm was bragging about how her income was over £20,000 but had 'found' enough receipts to put down enough expenses so she didn't have to pay any tax, birthday and Christmas presents for her own children and presents when her kids went to parties were put down as resources, making up additional journeys for the mileage, adding in extra food items etc she was freely giving out advice on how to avoid tax - I was shocked she was so open in a public place.
I think people look at people doing cash in hand or putting through extra expenses and people making fraudulent tax credit claims differently for the reason that when you take cash in hand or make up expenses you are not giving to the state what you should but you did earn that money however when someone makes up tax credit claims the state is giving you money, but you did not earn that money. However both are fraudulent claims.

[bunyip]

Some very good points, I was at a toddler group the other month a cm was bragging about how her income was over £20,000 but had 'found' enough receipts to put down enough expenses so she didn't have to pay any tax, birthday and Christmas presents for her own children and presents when her kids went to parties were put down as resources, making up additional journeys for the mileage, adding in extra food items etc she was freely giving out advice on how to avoid tax - I was shocked she was so open in a public place.
I think people look at people doing cash in hand or putting through extra expenses and people making fraudulent tax credit claims differently for the reason that when you take cash in hand or make up expenses you are not giving to the state what you should but you did earn that money however when someone makes up tax credit claims the state is giving you money, but you did not earn that money. However both are fraudulent claims.

I do think it's a weird thing, and wonder if it's unique to this country. Tax seems to be seen as something to be avoided, rather than as a citizen's duty, so people who avoid it are lauded in some circles. Yet fraudulent claimants (sometimes even legitimate claimants) are held in absolute contempt, despite it being 2 sides of the same dirty coin.

It's not unlike non-paying parents. If someone removed money from their purse or bank account, they'd call it stealing. But they flatly refuse to settle their arrears and get difficult when a CM pursues them through legal channels.