Very naughty girl!!

[jadavi]

Trying to catch your attention with that title.
I need your advice please.

We have a two year old girl who has a lot of speech but only speaks when she wants something - no to and fro chat or book reading. No real engagement or empathy with us or others.
She will not settle to anything but always stays on the periphery of events watching or more worryingly up to mischief . I don't normally use that expression but I have never had a child like this. She will climb onto anything and try and jump off. She'll fetch the collapsible stool from the loo into the kitchen stand on it and twiddle with the stove controls. We have to watch her like a hawk. Today she went back for the stool ten times each time being told to take it back by us. It's like she just doesn't hear us although she will do what we say.
What has particularly prompted me to post (on the request of her mum) is that she pushes children over when she tries to have fun with them. They are all scared of her now. We put her on the thinking chair and talk about behaviour and she says sorry so she can get off the chair I think.
She puts herself on the time out chair (as they call it at home) and thinks as long as she says sorry its all ok. Never any understanding of what she did.
We have tried excessive praise etc but mum is thinking its time for much stricter boundaries.
Normally i would bring out really enticing activities to distract her but she will not settle.
She is obsessed with doing up buckles and opening and shutting drawers opening and closing doors gates etc
She is having awful meltdowns at home and hitting her mum when she can't get her own way.
She is hugely energetic and wants to jump up and down the whole time but when we do an energetic activity or DVD like tumble tots she won't join in. When we do circle dances at group (ring a roses etc) she wants to just dance in the middle and not join in.
Any ideas? It's getting worse as she gets bigger. (She is a really big girl )

[smurfette]

Is she very bright? I have a little fella like this who seems to need more stimulation than others same age .. Not saying you don't of course,
But maybe she isn't as
Much at home and is used to that ? I know parents are often tired at end of day and Los can get more tv than might be wise But maybe she doesn't sit to do jigsaws etc? I also have an 18 month old like yours, she just is more naturally curious and into everything but also (having taking her to the zoo today and letting her have more of a free rein) I think she doesn't do anything she doesn't want to! In this case big sis has a long term illness so in and out of Hosp so parents are exhausted .. Is it possible uour mum isn't disciplining as much as she says and hopes you will sort it?!

[jadavi]

Thanks

Actually the mum is quite strict but the dad is liberal with her.
They do a lot with her. She is an only child. Parents have loads of time with her
Because her communication skills are so poor i don't feel she is of high intelligence and her attention span is really low.
The stimulus we give her seems to miss the target all the time.
How to stop the pushing?
No sanctions seem to work

X

[jadavi]

Any other ideas?

I told the mum this forum is very helpful and she's desperate xx

[smurfette]

Any other ideas? I told the mum this forum is very helpful and she's desperate xx

could be because dad is a push over he really needs to be on board as it will only get worse

[jadavi]

Good ideA. Will suggest that.

It's like she can't help it though....-acts on instincts.
If she was older we could try a reward chart for not pushing- but 23 months is too young imo

[kime]

My son is 28 months & since his second birthday I have done a really simple reward chart with him. If he plays nicely, shares doesn't push he gets a star. One on his chart one on his t shirt! He is bright & is starting to understand it a bit so might be worth a try x HTH

[FloraDora]

I appreciate that you gave this heading to get attention so I am assuming that nobody really thinks this LO is a very naughty girl!
She is just a little girl who is desperately trying to communicate her feelings, but isn't yet able to do so in the way adults expect....the answer I think is to get to the bottom of her frustrations and support her in communicating her feelings in a supportive way.

http://www.professionalparenting.ca/...123timeout.pdf
This is good reading about the disadvantages of using time out....which might offer some insight into this little ones distress.

Praise and encouragement through words and actions and not rewards of stickers etc.. Is the way I think works...
Research on this is in abundance ....

'Dr. T. Berry Brazelton believes that rewards narrow goals for children and take away opportunities for children to choose to do something because it is the right thing to do. He believes when rewards are used diminishes children wanting to do good thinks for their own reasons.'

The 'Nanny ' programmes that prompted time out and sticker charts have got a lot to answer for...they never stayed long term with the families....there was no follow up to show the long term issues...

Just do a few google searches around the issues you outined that this distressed LO is having and you will find real research with long term benefits ....that might help.

I hope you and the parents find a way to help her soon.

[bunnyjess]

When I first read this what sprung to mind is autism? Don't know for sure obviously but may be worth looking into?

[Tazmin68]

Hi
Sounds like my oldest son when he was similar age. Has since been diagnosed with aspergers and ADHD.

[jadavi]

Thanks I really appreciate the answers

I totally agree with you flora Dora but it doesn't seem to be working and we need something more.

I detest reward schemes too and find them often counter productive (children behaving well to get a reward but not because they understand why)

Yes the title was tongue in cheek. Of course she's not naughty. Like you I don't really believe in naughtiness but looking for the core reasons.

I do feel though (and so does mum) that something very very structured has to be in place to take advantage of her very impressionable and formative third year coming up....

[jadavi]

I have to stress this is not a shun the child 'time out' chair but sitting together away from the others to talk about what happened.
I know time out chair is frowned upon by ofsted. We call it a thinking chair and sit quietly together.
There is no question of leaving her to play in the group after she exhibits this aggressive behaviour. We have to have some kind of temporary withdrawal.

[sing-low]

Sounds to me like this might need referring onto a specialist - maybe via the HV or GP? To diagnose/rule out the autism/ADHD/aspbergers that others have suggested. You outline quite a few issues (how is she doing with her EYOs?) and say that Mum is desperate. You'd also then get some specific help (hopefully) targeted to the child and family. This might be a way to get Dad on board too. Not an easy one - they must be glad they have you to support them.

[jadavi]

What sort of specialist would that be?
I'm also beginning to think aspergers and ADHD too.

Very very hard conversation to have with the parents.

They say she is simply 'spirited' and nothing more. Very defensive.

I will be doing her 2 year assessment in three weeks... Could that maybe trigger some sort of consultation? I have no faith in health visitors I'm afraid - have never seen any evidence of meaningful intervention when needed....

[sing-low]

To be honest, I really don't know what kind of specialist. If you're doing the two year check, that may be an opportunity to suggest to the parents that their child needs more help than you (and they) can give her. It will give you a chance to spell out in black and white that she is not where you would expect developmentally.

I agree with you about health visitors, but from parent's point of view that might be more palatable than going straight to the GP. HV tends to be seen as for behavioural problems, GPs for a medical 'condition' and that may be a step too far. You may need to have to do some hand-holding.

One option would be for you to do some reading up on ADHD/aspergers (would obviously start by searching this Forum!) and if things seem to 'fit' that may help with a conversation with parents. But, yes, not easy at all!

[jadavi]

Thanks

I did used to be a teacher of children on the autistic spectrum and particularly with aspergers but that was from five up.

I will research aspergers and ADHD in two year olds .

If the HV agrees I don't know where she would refer her. Anyone know?

[jadavi]

Can anyone recommend a site about specifically early years with these conditions?

[Simona]

Can anyone recommend a site about specifically early years with these conditions?

I have replied to your other thread...this will take a bit of patience and time to get resolved

I would not label this child with anything or jump into a diagnosis about various possible additional needs ..share what the parents do at home with her and what you do and find a 'shared strategy' so the child is not confused
At age 2 children need very strong boundaries.
The fact she 'sits herself on a time out chair' is very worrying...does not look to me as if it is working and how humiliating for a toddler full of spirit to be sat on a chair or rewarded with a chart....

Give her time to get into her '2 year old' phase of development out of her system...with good guidance she will thrive, keep her well observed and if you still have worries in around 4 months start asking mum to take to the Health Visitor

[jadavi]

Thanks. I think I will delay doing the 2 y O assessment until I am more sure something is up.

We (me and mum) both feel the thinking chair is not really working. But we have to remove her from the play situ when it happens to protect the other children. They are all very scared of her now.

[Tazmin68]

It is extremely rare for a child to referred to paediatian doctor with regards to autism spectrum until referred via pre school, school or parent and at earliest around 4 years of age. I would say read up on it and if ticking a number of boxes then perhaps show parents what indicators you can see for them to think about. My son was never physical with it but another mindee child who also has ADHD is and it was due to a private nursery excluding him for a couple of days with regards to his behaviour and the written notes that nursery made that prompted parents to take child to gp who was then referred. Once diagnosed it is with the help and support from various agencies that this child's behaviour improved dramatically.
The main indicators with my son are.
1. Cannot cope very well with changes to routine.
2. Has sensory issues with taste and texture of food.
3. Hates loud noises hands over ears.
4. Has no empathy with others.
5. Takes things said very literally.
6. Will have a meltdown when overloaded with information.

He is now 10 and has a special card that he holds up when he needs time out in class. Unfortunately at this age other children also know what buttons to press to wind him up.

When he was 2/3 he had night terrors. Would only drink from a particular cup. Very focused on technology and computers and would not interact much with other children and do his own thing. No interest in imagination or role play.

My mindee on the other hand had no sense of danger and still is the same now and is 8 years old. He used to press the panic buttons on my house alarm. He improved once on medication but that does not work for all children.