WARNING PACEY CONTRACTS - all contracts must be changed per year ......

[Simona]

I have 2 contracts in front of me...both with ncma logo not pacey
The 1st is yellow orange with a date at the bottom 03/04..this one has 3 parts
The 2nd has the picture of a blonde girl playing with wooden blocks ...dated 06/11 ...it has 4 parts so slightly longer, it says 'new and improved'

I cannot find any difference in the 'small print' between the 2 of them but one thing is clear on both of them...it says 'if you are in doubt about this contract, please consult a solicitor'...confused here...I thought the contract was devised by pacey legal dept?

should we get a fund going and get it checked ? or this issue will continue to rumble for ever as we are none the wiser.

[Cottonsocks]

I renewed my membership a few weeks ago & at the same time ordered record forms & contracts. PACEY sent me NCMA contracts & when I questioned it they said they were using up those first. I'm in Wales.

[Mrsh3103]

I ordered had some delivered this week & they pacey ones!

[christine e]

[QUOTE=Cottonsocks;1290072]I renewed my membership a few weeks ago & at the same time ordered record forms & contracts. PACEY sent me NCMA contracts & when I questioned it they said they were using up those first. I'm in Wales.[/QU

Did you order them from Bromley? I ordered new contracts shortly after the name change and received pacey ones

[jackie 7]

I had pacey ones and got accident forms which had the left and right side of body printed wrong. Now I will have to decide for next year but will have to consider all factors. Big will stay a member if they continue to fight for us.

[tulip0803]

I renewed my membership a few weeks ago & at the same time ordered record forms & contracts. PACEY sent me NCMA contracts & when I questioned it they said they were using up those first. I'm in Wales.

I got NCMA ones too. The Welsh ones are Bilingual so they obviously haven't used up our old NCMA ones

[tulip0803]

Did you order them from Bromley? I ordered new contracts shortly after the name change and received pacey ones

Cottonsocks and I are in Wales our contracts are bilingual and meet CSSIW standards. I got NCMA ones too

[Cottonsocks]

Yes, as Tulip said ours are bilingual. So PACEY are obviously still honouring NCMA contracts.

[rickysmiths]

I have 2 contracts in front of me...both with ncma logo not pacey
The 1st is yellow orange with a date at the bottom 03/04..this one has 3 parts
The 2nd has the picture of a blonde girl playing with wooden blocks ...dated 06/11 ...it has 4 parts so slightly longer, it says 'new and improved'

I cannot find any difference in the 'small print' between the 2 of them but one thing is clear on both of them...it says 'if you are in doubt about this contract, please consult a solicitor'...confused here...I thought the contract was devised by pacey legal dept?

should we get a fund going and get it checked ? or this issue will continue to rumble for ever as we are none the wiser.

Simoma the 3 page Contract you have is very out of date. The 4 page one is the current one and is more comprehensive than the old 3 page one especially on page 4.

I have been using NCMA Contracts for 13 years now and they can be ambiguous if they are not filled in meticulously including any details specific to you own business. It is the penalty of a document produced for mass use and not individually tailored. My father was a Contracts specialist and negotiator for a very well known Company, he was a believer in Plain English and revolutionised the way that multi million pound Company wrote its Contracts. The Lawyers were very dubious at the beginning but allowed the process to proceed and found my Dad was correct and it saved the Company a lot of money in legal fees over the years. He went over the first NCMA Contract I used and made some suggestions to make it more water tight than it was on its own.

The thing is that many cm are not particularly business orientated and may have never had any experience filling in or completing a contract. Also Pacey sell us the Contracts but they have no input in the completing of them, that is why I am sure they if in doubt consult a Solicitor. Now I have had a recent dispute with a parent and I chose to use an independent Solicitor. I asked how much they would charge to read my Contract and Policies and advise me how I could make them foolproof. It would cost about £500 to £600. The thing is you could not just have the contract checked out because it will be different for each of us because we all fill it in in a different way and have different Policies.

The advise I would give is:

Fill in every detail and everything in detail, days, hours, hourly rate, monthly rate, payment day, late fees, holidays, notice, etc etc. If in doubt include it.

Always get both parents to sign the Contract if they are both around. Then they are both responsible for the fees and you can chase both if they are not paid.

Take your time to fill in the Contract and fill in all the bits you can before the parent comes to sign.

Always sit with the parents to complete the Contract, in your home if possible and try to have someone in the room with you as you complete it and explain it to the parents so you have someone to back you up if a parent tries to say 'you didn't tell me'. Last resort go to the parents home to complete it, NEVER hand the document to the parents to fill in and sign out of your sight.

Take time after it is Complete to double check all sections are filled before you sign it. Give the parents their copy with please keep written across the top!

I always warn parents that they need to allow an hour to hour and half to come and complete the Contract and other paperwork and pref without children. It is an important process and is best not rushed and that way hopefully everyone is fully informed, the correct details are recorded and there will be no problems in the future.


Simona I am sure there are similar issues with MM Contracts it is not just Pacey. I think it is very unfair to accuse them of having potentially poor contracts.

[rickysmiths]

Yes, as Tulip said ours are bilingual. So PACEY are obviously still honouring NCMA contracts.

Pacey are still honoring all NCMA Contracts. It doesn't matter at all what logo is on the Contract that does not affect the content. Frankly it could have Mickey Mouse on the top and as long as the content is sound it will stand up in court.

Before Simona comments I know Pacey would not represent a contract with 'Mickey Mouse' on the top!!! They will an NCMA or Pacey one though as long as it is filled in correctly.

One thought if someone is really unsure if they are filling one in correctly would be to contact the Legal Line and see if you could send a sample completed one to them for them to look at and comment on?

[jackie 7]

What I do withy contracts is fill it out then hand it yo the parents to tale home and read. I do not sign it until I have it back and checked our. I fill out every part with n/a when necessary. I go through everything and say on it when we need to review it but what I don't know is how long the contract is valid. I believed it was for the length of the time the child attends.

[Simona]

Simoma the 3 page Contract you have is very out of date. The 4 page one is the current one and is more comprehensive than the old 3 page one especially on page 4.

I have been using NCMA Contracts for 13 years now and they can be ambiguous if they are not filled in meticulously including any details specific to you own business. It is the penalty of a document produced for mass use and not individually tailored. My father was a Contracts specialist and negotiator for a very well known Company, he was a believer in Plain English and revolutionised the way that multi million pound Company wrote its Contracts. The Lawyers were very dubious at the beginning but allowed the process to proceed and found my Dad was correct and it saved the Company a lot of money in legal fees over the years. He went over the first NCMA Contract I used and made some suggestions to make it more water tight than it was on its own.

The thing is that many cm are not particularly business orientated and may have never had any experience filling in or completing a contract. Also Pacey sell us the Contracts but they have no input in the completing of them, that is why I am sure they if in doubt consult a Solicitor. Now I have had a recent dispute with a parent and I chose to use an independent Solicitor. I asked how much they would charge to read my Contract and Policies and advise me how I could make them foolproof. It would cost about £500 to £600. The thing is you could not just have the contract checked out because it will be different for each of us because we all fill it in in a different way and have different Policies.

The advise I would give is:

Fill in every detail and everything in detail, days, hours, hourly rate, monthly rate, payment day, late fees, holidays, notice, etc etc. If in doubt include it.

Always get both parents to sign the Contract if they are both around. Then they are both responsible for the fees and you can chase both if they are not paid.

Take your time to fill in the Contract and fill in all the bits you can before the parent comes to sign.

Always sit with the parents to complete the Contract, in your home if possible and try to have someone in the room with you as you complete it and explain it to the parents so you have someone to back you up if a parent tries to say 'you didn't tell me'. Last resort go to the parents home to complete it, NEVER hand the document to the parents to fill in and sign out of your sight.

Take time after it is Complete to double check all sections are filled before you sign it. Give the parents their copy with please keep written across the top!

I always warn parents that they need to allow an hour to hour and half to come and complete the Contract and other paperwork and pref without children. It is an important process and is best not rushed and that way hopefully everyone is fully informed, the correct details are recorded and there will be no problems in the future.


Simona I am sure there are similar issues with MM Contracts it is not just Pacey. I think it is very unfair to accuse them of having potentially poor contracts.

Rickysmiths...I didn't accuse anyone of anything so don't twist my words
I mentioned I have 2 copies of contracts just to compare and have found no difference in them when looking at the 'small print'...
I use neither as this consistent worry of what is valid or otherwise is very unprofessional and unhelpful.....or how often they should be renewed, none is a positive reflection on something cms have used for years and now questioning...It is not helpful to cms

after years of having contracts pacey should not be in a position to be questioned on the validity of them...or their logo or what we are covered for?? when to renew or how accurate they are...as for contacting the helpline ....good luck is all I can say!

I have reverted to use my own which is far more comprehensive and saves on additional paperwork without the much repetition in the pacey contract... after 20 years in the job I know what to do and what a contract stands for !

[rickysmiths]

Rickysmiths...I didn't accuse anyone of anything so don't twist my words
I mentioned I have 2 copies of contracts just to compare and have found no difference in them when looking at the 'small print'...
I use neither as this consistent worry of what is valid or otherwise is very unprofessional and unhelpful.....or how often they should be renewed, none is a positive reflection on something cms have used for years and now questioning...It is not helpful to cms

after years of having contracts pacey should not be in a position to be questioned on the validity of them...or their logo or what we are covered for?? when to renew or how accurate they are...as for contacting the helpline ....good luck is all I can say!

I have reverted to use my own which is far more comprehensive and saves on additional paperwork without the much repetition in the pacey contract... after 20 years in the job I know what to do and what a contract stands for !

Yes and frankly at 17 pages long is probably far more open to question than the Pacey ones.

I am sorry but you are making something out of nothing.

The logo is not in question. It is just that and be it NCMA or Pacey makes no difference to the validity of the contents of the contract.

If it is filled in robustly there should not be any problem with it at all and the Pacey one is not repetitive, I have used them very successfully for 13 years and they have been tested by parents who have wanted to get out of payment for various things over they years and unsuccessfully.

Pacey recommend as good practice that all contracts are reviewed at least once a year, yes they recommend that cms gradually change to using the new 4 page contracts as they cover more information and are more comprehensive and it makes good sense and good practice to change to the new ones as soon is as practical. To be honest at a cost of £1.67 each to a member this is hardly a major cost, even if you completely renewed all contracts once a year. It would be a drop in the ocean even for a child only attending 1 day a week never mind one on more hours in terms of the fees charged. Your 17 pages x 2 which at approx 5p per page (not an unreasonable estimate of cost to print) would cost approx £1.70 per contract so more than the Pacey one. I know that the MM ones cost more than the Pacey ones as well.

Honestly the fuss is about nothing and why always about the Pacey Contracts ? How come you never comment about the MM ones? I personally have never seen one but I suspect that in the same way they have to cater to all they may well have explanation notes and be just a potentially ambiguous as the Pacey ones if they are not completed correctly and fully.

If you are so unhappy about all the things Pacey don't do and the services they provide then for goodness sake just leave them and use MM or UKCMA or PSLA or something. Many different organisations to suit different needs. If Pacey doesn't suit yours stop whinging and go elsewhere. Just because they don't suit you doesn't mean they are not doing a good job.

Either that or please compare all the above organisations on equal terms.

Personally I haven't got a lot of confidence in UKCMAs abilities and I don't like the fact that they are purely a profit making organisation. I wouldn't join them but I don't take every opportunity possible to run them down. I choose to belong to the organisation that suits me and get on with my life.

[Simona]

Yes and frankly at 17 pages long is probably far more open to question than the Pacey ones.

I am sorry but you are making something out of nothing.

The logo is not in question. It is just that and be it NCMA or Pacey makes no difference to the validity of the contents of the contract.

If it is filled in robustly there should not be any problem with it at all and the Pacey one is not repetitive, I have used them very successfully for 13 years and they have been tested by parents who have wanted to get out of payment for various things over they years and unsuccessfully.

Pacey recommend as good practice that all contracts are reviewed at least once a year, yes they recommend that cms gradually change to using the new 4 page contracts as they cover more information and are more comprehensive and it makes good sense and good practice to change to the new ones as soon is as practical. To be honest at a cost of £1.67 each to a member this is hardly a major cost, even if you completely renewed all contracts once a year. It would be a drop in the ocean even for a child only attending 1 day a week never mind one on more hours in terms of the fees charged. Your 17 pages x 2 which at approx 5p per page (not an unreasonable estimate of cost to print) would cost approx £1.70 per contract so more than the Pacey one. I know that the MM ones cost more than the Pacey ones as well.

Honestly the fuss is about nothing and why always about the Pacey Contracts ? How come you never comment about the MM ones? I personally have never seen one but I suspect that in the same way they have to cater to all they may well have explanation notes and be just a potentially ambiguous as the Pacey ones if they are not completed correctly and fully.

If you are so unhappy about all the things Pacey don't do and the services they provide then for goodness sake just leave them and use MM or UKCMA or PSLA or something. Many different organisations to suit different needs. If Pacey doesn't suit yours stop whinging and go elsewhere. Just because they don't suit you doesn't mean they are not doing a good job.

Either that or please compare all the above organisations on equal terms.

Personally I haven't got a lot of confidence in UKCMAs abilities and I don't like the fact that they are purely a profit making organisation. I wouldn't join them but I don't take every opportunity possible to run them down. I choose to belong to the organisation that suits me and get on with my life.

Rickysmiths.....I did not start this thread in case you missed that point
I am just listening to cms not moaning....and sharing my opinion which I am entitled to do as this forum allows 'freedom of speech', 'freedom of choice' and respects all opinions
Your statement above is full of contradictions

Cms are concerned at the 'VALIDITY' of their contract not the LOGO....I think that is a big thing for them in my view...would you agree?
It would be helpful if you would report that to Pacey

You say a contract should be filled in 'ROBUSTLY' ...I totally agree as long as it has the info you want to fill in and parents should have
You say the contract is not repetitive...why use a whole page just about one subject?
where is the consent for many things in the contract
or any reference to EYFS
or Terms and Conditions from both parents and cm? I could go on for ever...

Yes my contract is 17 pages long and so it should be because it has 3 sections ...in fact it will be even longer soon thanks to info shared on this forum with cms and cms discussing various things I will review it and add a few things ready for Sept 2013...that is reflection

I am listening while Pacey has not otherwise cms would not be here once again discussing their contract...
I did contact Pacey to ask for clarification about a few things that worried me and was treated rather shabbily...this has nothing to do with Pacey but with an item of merchandise I was purchasing and not happy about!!

My contract has been checked by a solicitor and let me reassure you it would stand any scrutiny...
It is exactly because Pacey contracts are so cheap at £1.67 that they worry me...I do not know about MM ones or anyone else for that matter because I am a Pacey member ONLY I don't have 'multiple membership' so have no access to any other contract


Without fail the Pacey contract has been discussed on this forum over and over again, cms come back again and again and question this and that...up to pacey to serve their members and rectify something that is very obviously concerning them

I hope you will report to them the concerns your colleagues have...maybe they will listen to you

Who is PSLA? maybe you mean PLA? it has had that acronym for years and I am not aware they rebranded to PSLA

[bunyip]

Why is it that one person gets an answer it is seen as the truth and no one else challenges it? All of a sudden this is fact and uproar!

Last time this was brought up I went to the Director of Membership and posted her response and everyone was happy.

IF you believe that the helpline was correct then so be it but IF you are a member and you are unhappy with this RING them, EMAIL them and let them know what you have been told and why you are unhappy.

Posting it on here doesn't get you anywhere but mad at a system.

I have, yesterday infact, emailed Pacey myself with a copy of the original post and asked for their response. Why don't you do that too????

Be active - the more people that challenge something the better in my opinion.

My problem has been that I've done exactly what you suggested and got nowhere.

My local resource centre will (quite reasonably) only hire out certain expensive resources to CMs with suitable insurance. I spent more than a month phoning and emailing pacey to ask a very straightforward question about my insurance policy, since they don't send the full schedule to members, only a pretty vague summary document. My emails went unanswered. My phone calls were all met with a total lack of comprehension or the more usual response which amounted to "er, dunno - I'll put you on hold until you can speak to someone else who doesn't know either." I was eventually given a number to call, and was assured that it was for the top person who deals personally with pacey insurance policies at Royal & Sun Alliance plc. Was it squat!?!? i ended up talking to a completely baffled telephonist who deals with health questions.

This was no better than the last problem I took to the pacey helpline: ie. when my DO told my local group that we should all get ready to join agencies and that my local pacey office were discussing how they might become an agency. Again, another month+ of emails and calls before I finally got the official response of "all staff have been briefed."

Now whether that answer means anything or nothing is entirely incidental to my point here. I am a member of pacey because I feel we need a professional representative body. They are at present the best show in town IMHO - but they still aren't very good at a lot of what they do. I complain on the forum because complaining to pacey doesn't get me very far and I am, quite frankly running out of walls to bang my pretty little head against.

End rant.

[rickysmiths]

Rickysmiths.....I did not start this thread in case you missed that point
I am just listening to cms not moaning....and sharing my opinion which I am entitled to do as this forum allows 'freedom of speech', 'freedom of choice' and respects all opinions
Your statement above is full of contradictions

Cms are concerned at the 'VALIDITY' of their contract not the LOGO....I think that is a big thing for them in my view...would you agree?
It would be helpful if you would report that to Pacey

You say a contract should be filled in 'ROBUSTLY' ...I totally agree as long as it has the info you want to fill in and parents should have
You say the contract is not repetitive...why use a whole page just about one subject?
where is the consent for many things in the contract
or any reference to EYFS
or Terms and Conditions from both parents and cm? I could go on for ever...

Yes my contract is 17 pages long and so it should be because it has 3 sections ...in fact it will be even longer soon thanks to info shared on this forum with cms and cms discussing various things I will review it and add a few things ready for Sept 2013...that is reflection

I am listening while Pacey has not otherwise cms would not be here once again discussing their contract...
I did contact Pacey to ask for clarification about a few things that worried me and was treated rather shabbily...this has nothing to do with Pacey but with an item of merchandise I was purchasing and not happy about!!

My contract has been checked by a solicitor and let me reassure you it would stand any scrutiny...
It is exactly because Pacey contracts are so cheap at £1.67 that they worry me...I do not know about MM ones or anyone else for that matter because I am a Pacey member ONLY I don't have 'multiple membership' so have no access to any other contract


Without fail the Pacey contract has been discussed on this forum over and over again, cms come back again and again and question this and that...up to pacey to serve their members and rectify something that is very obviously concerning them

I hope you will report to them the concerns your colleagues have...maybe they will listen to you

Who is PSLA? maybe you mean PLA? it has had that acronym for years and I am not aware they rebranded to PSLA

I don't understand. Any NCMA/Pacey contract that is correctly completed is Valid. Why wouldn't it be? I don't see the problem really and I think it is s fuss about nothing.

I always review my contracts annually but if nothing has changed I will not change the Contract. I have had several families who have had the same Contract for 5-6 years and it is still a perfectly valid contract. Contracts do not run out unless you put in a date that they will finish, except if you use the Short Term Contracts which are only valid for 30 days. Ordinary Contracts don't just expire after a determined time they are Valid and legally binding until YOU change them for whatever reason.

I think everyone is getting their knocks in a twist.

If anyone is unsure it is no good surmising on here, ring the Pacey Legal help line and ask. They are, in my experience very helpful.

[rickysmiths]

Just phoned PACEY to renew my membership and public liability insurance and asked about using the old NCMA contracts and if I was able to still use them.

I was told yes I could use them but ALL including PACEY contracts should be changed yearly, this was advise by their legal team as the clauses and small print may have changed and would not stand up in court. So this would mean for me as we can only use PACEY contracts buying at least 2 books of PACEY contracts per year on top of our membership cost - an extra £20. I can't help feeling sometimes that PACEY are just money making and not really there for their members. I am going to look at Morton Michel instead and consider not renewing my membership. I asked about contract reviews and said so when we have contract reviews and there are no changes we still have to change the contract anyway - makes a mockery of the system and she replied yes you do and the contract review is just about your setting not the legal side of the actual contract - HUMPH!

They only advise you renew/revise the paperwork annually it is not compulsory. It is not a money making exercise it is advising good practice and making you aware that they regularly check and update the Contracts to meet our needs as childminders. Remember they are the ones dealing with any legal matters during the year so they have the best insight (or should do) into what the changing needs may be. You don't have to renew your Contracts if you don't want to if they fulfill your needs.

Anyway at the end of the day £1.66 or there abouts is hardly a major expense, for even a part time family in respect of 12 months fees and the cost is an expense against your business as well. At the end of the day if it protects you and the family I think it is a worthwhile investment I don't see what all the fuss is about to be honest.

MM Contracts are more expensive than Pacey ones.

[Simona]

I don't understand. Any NCMA/Pacey contract that is correctly completed is Valid. Why wouldn't it be? I don't see the problem really and I think it is s fuss about nothing.

I always review my contracts annually but if nothing has changed I will not change the Contract. I have had several families who have had the same Contract for 5-6 years and it is still a perfectly valid contract. Contracts do not run out unless you put in a date that they will finish, except if you use the Short Term Contracts which are only valid for 30 days. Ordinary Contracts don't just expire after a determined time they are Valid and legally binding until YOU change them for whatever reason.

I think everyone is getting their knocks in a twist.

If anyone is unsure it is no good surmising on here, ring the Pacey Legal help line and ask. They are, in my experience very helpful.

Thank you for the advice...I am making 'no fuss' but I believe the concerns expressed by those who use the pacey contract are valid and should not be disregarded as getting whatever in a twist
I do hope someone will come out with an answer soon and clarification that is crystal clear to them

Glad to read that Bunyip too gets nowhere with his good intentions at engaging with those we pay to represent us...was beginning to feel isolated on that point!

[rickysmiths]

So if pacey change the small print it makes the contract invalid.

So if I was to buy contracts on the 31st August 2012 and they change then 2nd September 2012. Fast forward to the July 2013 I have a problem would my contract be invalid because the small print had changed

Its always been considered good practise to review contracts every 12 months up to the cm if she/he wants to or not

No it does not because it is the new 'small print' on the NEW contracts and is valid for those Contracts. All that may happen is that they cover a new point that may not be on the old Contracts but that does NOT mean the old Contracts suddenly become invalid.!!!

Companies change and up date the terms of their Contracts all the time it does not immediately invalidate all Contracts already in existence.

[rickysmiths]

Hmmm? I think this is more of a money making piece of advice as opposed to legal advice.

One you have signed a contract you are bound by the term and conditions of THAT contract, not the terms and conditions of future versions. Also, if there were going to be changes then they would need to made in writing with notice.

For example, I had worked for T-Mobile for over 7 years, during that time we have had about 4 contract versions. So if a customer signed a contract in 2005 contract version 52, they would be bound by those terms and conditions, not the terms of contract version 56 in 2011. Unless a letter was sent out advising them of a change to terms and conditions.

Just because PACEY change the terms and create new versions, it means that NEW clients, signing the NEW versions would be bound by them, but the existing clients would be bound by the original terms.

If it was the case that you were supposed to create an entire new contract annually, why on earth would they give you the space to sign for a contract review?

Absolutely! If you got new Contracts and wanting to apply a new term to existing parents you would do a Contract review with them. If you weren't bothered then their existing contract would still be binding for them.