Another idea from Truss - back to the French again!

[Mouse]

A generation of unruly toddlers: Schools Minister says Nursery children aren't taught manners | Mail Online

Doesn't her latest idea go against everything we're told about giving children the freedom to follow their own ideas and play? So now we should be abandoning the idea of free flow play and providing more structure. I wonder what Ofsted would sa about that

[lisbet]

I have a horrible feeling that Ofsted (well Michael Wilshaw, anyway) will go along with this.

Such misguided, damaging views...

[watgem]

I am fed up of practitioners being blamed for childrens lack of manners and unwanted behaviours, mrs truss is obviously very priviligded and has no idea what its like to live and work in disadvantaged areas where many children are growing up in chaotic families, she also has no idea about the eyfs, good practice or in fact anything that goes on in the early hears in the uk, perhaps she needs to spend a significant amount of time in ordinary peoples shoes! Sorry rant over lol

[watgem]

Sorry about the spellings am on the tablet with my sausage fingers lol

[hectors house]

Actually I agree with her views and that's why I think that Children who attend a Childminding setting are far better behaved, they do learn good manners, waiting turns for attention or to play with a certain toy, table manners and good old fashioned family values unlike they do whatever you want approach at Nursery.

Also I do a lot of structured activities up to the dining room table - children sit up properly for a length of time and take part, they can't get down and wonder off in the middle of painting to go and do playdough and then wonder back again when it suits them. I have had children come who previously attended work place nurseries & creches and they had no concentration skills what so ever.

I think this article is doing childminders a favour by critising Nurseries for a change!

[SammySplodger]

Grrrrr
Why are settings getting the 'blame' for this? As a parent I consider manners MY responsibility!
Why does she keep going on about France?
Smug-looking picture too....

[FussyElmo]

In one way I agree with her. No matter how much a parent uses manners if the child attends a setting where they are not used that child will do what everyone else does.

However I think this is more of a society's problem that there is a generations of adults that do not use manners so the children have no chance.

[jackie 7]

Having worked in a nursery I know they don't have time to teach manners. There are too many children now so how will they cope in September. Another problem is many dont have manners! They also don't say no. This is part of real school readiness.

[dawn100]

In some ways I agree with what she is saying (not that I like the thought of agreeing with her) my dd preschool when my ds also attended has changed hugely over the last few years, my eldest ds attended b4 the EYFS was introduced in 2008, it use to be far more structured, children had choices but weren't allowed to do just anything and manners were expected, however now my dd attends 'free flow' is the focus but in my opinion it's just a free for all with the dominant children getting what they want and shy children going unnoticed. I'm not saying the preschool staff are bad but they are following advice they have been given and believe free flow is compulsory, but if mrs truss is saying its not where has this misconnception come from. I think its very hard for child carers as they are always getting the blame fir things but every two minutes the goal posts are being moved. You can't blame nurseries soley for children's manners but neither is it all on the parents when they spend a large amount of time else where. My dd comes home with sayings that the leaders use which I think demonstrates what an influence child carers are!

[Simona]

I am so sorry Mouse I did not see your post from last night and posted one this morning as I saw the news on Twitter

As I said in my post it may be a good idea if they said clearly who they are referring to when they come out with their damaging attacks
If nurseries or any other settings do need to improve on teaching manners then there is a way to put that message across such as : we need to address that area of PSED not the sensentional and headline grabbing way the DfE, Ofsted and Truss choose to make their messages known

[Mouse]

Actually I agree with her views and that's why I think that Children who attend a Childminding setting are far better behaved, they do learn good manners, waiting turns for attention or to play with a certain toy, table manners and good old fashioned family values unlike they do whatever you want approach at Nursery.

Also I do a lot of structured activities up to the dining room table - children sit up properly for a length of time and take part, they can't get down and wonder off in the middle of painting to go and do playdough and then wonder back again when it suits them. I have had children come who previously attended work place nurseries & creches and they had no concentration skills what so ever.

I think this article is doing childminders a favour by critising Nurseries for a change!

I agree with the principle of what she's saying and I certainly agree with what you're saying. I believe that children should be taught manners & respect for others from an early age. I have never gone along with the notion that children should be allowed to do whatever they want, whenever they want. My own children weren't allowed to do that and neither are minded children. Unfortunately some parents & carers seem to have lost the balance between allowing children freedom, but within certain boundaries.

If you don't teach manners & respect in the early years, how are children supposed to gain those skills when they get older? They don't suddenly appear when children start school, or join the work place, but if they've grown up believing they can do whatever they want, it's a hard thing to overcome.

My argument with Truss is why put the blame on nurseries? For a long time now nurseries (and childminders) have been told they must allow free choice, children must be able to do what they want - if that means getting down from the table & wandering round, we must let them. How many childminders have been told they have to have a photo album of all the toys & resources they have so that children can demand whatever they want? How many times are we told that the child comes first, the child must be free to do what they want, without boundaries other than those in place for safety reasons? How many parents have let their children get away with poor behaviour in the name of allowing the, free choice? How many people are afraid to say no to a child for fear of it upsetting them, or stifling their progress? Now we're being told that's wrong!

My other gripe is that she wants these manners taught in a more formal situation. Again, I see nothing wrong with that to a certain extent. Making children sit at the table to eat & wait until everyone has finished is good manners. But manners & respect should come from children observing adults and the way they behave. Good modelling from adults should happen in any situation, not just in structured activities. It should be seen as a way of life for everyone - if it doesn't start in the home, childcarers can only have a limited impact.

[rickysmiths]

Actually I agree with her views and that's why I think that Children who attend a Childminding setting are far better behaved, they do learn good manners, waiting turns for attention or to play with a certain toy, table manners and good old fashioned family values unlike they do whatever you want approach at Nursery.

Also I do a lot of structured activities up to the dining room table - children sit up properly for a length of time and take part, they can't get down and wonder off in the middle of painting to go and do playdough and then wonder back again when it suits them. I have had children come who previously attended work place nurseries & creches and they had no concentration skills what so ever.

I think this article is doing childminders a favour by critising Nurseries for a change!

Oh I'm glad I'm not the only one! It was my first thought when I heard about this. I don't think good Pre Schools are the ones at fault. I have always had my reservations about the merits of a child being in full time Day Nursery from a young age though. I don't think the young workers communicate with the children anything as like as much a childminders do, because they already have too many children and not enough experience of children to know how to and no one teaches them. I was shocked at the Nursery workers who were on my Level 3 course. They really did not have a clue. The children rarely leave the four walls of the Nursery so they develop no wider social skills and do not get used to the wider world. Parents often over compensate because their children are in childcare for so long so the children are allowed to get away with everything when they are at home.

I think being with a childminder is a win, win, situation. I think they get much more one to one care and will even if we do have 4 under fives ( having cared for four under fives for many years I can't get exercised about this proposal for childminders and in fact I welcome the removal of red tape to allow it). They are socialized widely with children of their own age, different ages and adults. They go in and out of the Pre Schools and Schools that they will evenually go to so they become very familiar with those environments. They learn to be street wise because they are out and about often. They walk far further and far more often. They sit and eat their meals at a table and learn who to eat and table manners. They learn to sit and do craft activities and table bases activities which prepares them for school in terms of behaviour and being able to concentrate on a task for a length of time. And so the list goes on.

Thank you Ms Truss for advertising all the good that is offered by good quality Home Based care.

[rickysmiths]

Grrrrr
Why are settings getting the 'blame' for this? As a parent I consider manners MY responsibility!
Why does she keep going on about France?
Smug-looking picture too....

You are quite right Sammy it is your job as a parent to teach manners but that is no good if the people carring for your child in your absence don't to the same and so reinforce the job you are doing.

[Simona]

I remember cms complaining that when a statement about nurseries is made cms are included and not mentioned separately...I saw no mention in Truss' article that she was referring to nurseries in particular and not cms??? and I certainly did not see her advertising home based childcare? we interpret things differently I know

If that area needs addressing in PSED there is a way of communicating this to the sector and state clearly that it will be in the new EYFs when it is reviewed...not by making sweeping statements

Referring to manners these have to be taught everywhere a child is not just settings for continuity...my older children tell me no one at school reinforces manners especially at dinner time and often children are not taught at home either....while I battle each day for basic manners to be followed...some people think that just saying please and thank you is enough...or sorry when it is most inappropriate for a child to apologise

Learning manners is part of emotional intelligence and self control...they cannot be imposed they have to be learnt and know why, which is part of being accepted in society and making appropriate choices??

[lizann]

I agree with all the comments made I have been cm for over 20 years the first thing taught to mindees in my house is respect and manners this is always explained to the parents when they come for a visit if they dont like it they are free to go elsewhere .

[sarahmc]

We go to a toddler group and every week we pass the office and I say good morning to the lovely lady in there. Last Wednesday all 3 of my 1 and 2 year olds said "good morning" and I was SO proud. I couldn't wait to tell others at group. The Parents reactions varied to "oh brilliant totally agree with manners"to total dismissal. I have always, in 17 years, been complimented on how well mannered my children are and think manners are important.

" manners cost nothing" my lovely nan use to say!

[watgem]

I agree that manners cost nothing hwever they need to be taught at home from early age so that when children venture out into the wider community they have a basic understanding, however many children are not being taught manners/wanted behaviurs in the home and so start preschool at 2 or 3 lacking in these basic skills, if you are working in a preschool where most of the children lack these skills, no matter how qualified your staff and how good your setting/practices are, you will be faced with an uphill struggle and therefore the blame should not lie wholly with staff. I have friends who work in a fantastic preschool where the staff are very qualified and caring however most f the children have chaotic family lives, are very disadvantaged etc etc. I realise this is not an excuse, but it is a reason, and another valid reason for not increasing ratios. I guess what I am trying to say is that raising children to be polite, well behaved, happy individuals that are motivated and engaged is everyone's responsibility, not just preschool/nurseries, but parents, the family circle, childminders, people everywhere-how many times have we as childminders/parents encouraged our children to move over and let people pass, give up seats, hold open doors yet other adults frequently forget to thank the children or acknowledge them?

[watgem]

sorry am still on my soapbox, i also feel that early years workers should all be supporting eachother, especially now

[nikkiv]

Have just read it expecting to be cross and actually agree with her good manners and showing respect! It was taught and expected of me the same as I am with our son and all if my mindees! Myself and 4 children the other day getting off the bus and they all said thanku to the driver just as well he had his seat belt on as he looked as if he would fall off his seat! When I said thanku he said no my love thanku I will smile for the rest of the day!

[Simona]

I agree with you watgem...we should be supporting each other in these difficult times after all, it is hoped, we have a shared aim but we also need good representation and need to be spoken to in a more respectful manner

I do feel though that instead of feeling part of an entire workforce this govt is so busy attacking us in different statements...no one is clear what is happening to each in the sector
the only thing we share is the higher ratios, the rest is all confusing, one day is cms, the next nurseries, then is CCentres not performing well but all of a sudden they can become agencies for cms to support high quality...none helpful as we know improvement is part of our practice but so is recognition of what we do well

And yes manners have to be taught by all who care for a child not in sections, it should be a holistic approach