advice please

[ziggy]

A childminder friend of mine took on a little boy i gave immediate notice to almost 2yrs ago, sadly the mummy can be quite difficult.

Her mindee attends local playgroup, my friend has him 3 or 4 days a week 7.30 am till 5pm. He attends local playgroup from 9.30 till 12pm each day. Minder takes him and collects him and charges mummy for a full day.

Now some weeks ago playgroup assistant had nasty accident so friend was asked to work at playgroup until assistant returns. My friend worked there before becoming a childminder.

Mummy arrived at friends yesterday to say she is cutting down from 3 days to 2. friend explained that she will need 4 weeks notice as agreed in contract then she will set up a new contract. Mummy started crying saying work is really low and as a single parent she cant manage but to be blunt my friend is in same boat!!!!

Then mummy got very difficult saying my friend takes advantage by charging for holidays etc.

Last night mummy text to say she isnt going to pay while child and minder are at the playgroup as minder is getting 'paid twice for having child'

Now i can see what mummy is saying but if minder is available for child during playgroup hours then does mummy have right to do this? I take little mindees to groups while older one is at pre-school but am available if needed so still charge

advice much appreciated

[FussyElmo]

Oh that's a hard one I can see both sides of this argument.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer on this.

[mummyMia]

So let me get this straight, the childminder works at the same playgroup where her mindee attends. She chages the parent for the hours that the mindee is at the playgroup, but also gets paid for that time by the playgroup. To be honest I can see the mum's logic on this one. Normally a childminder would only charge for the hours that a child is at a playgroup if she is available to have the child for that time, but this childminder isn't really available (not at her setting anyway) as she has a paid job during those hours.

What does the contract say? If it states that the mum has to pay for those hours then I don't think she can suddenly stop paying. On the other hand I can see why she is saying that the childminder is being paid twice for looking after the same child so I think they really need to sit down and have an honest discussion about this.

[ziggy]

yes, i can see both sides as well. Friend is only working at playgroup till end of month and is still available for child. It is a tricky one, sadly mummy can be very difficult and not easy to talk to. she was happy enough for friend to work at playgroup until she wanted to reduce days, all seems rather petty

[ziggy]

contract says 4 weeks notice to be given of any changes, mummy is also now not willing to sign a new contract for reducing days

[FussyElmo]

contract says 4 weeks notice to be given of any changes, mummy is also now not willing to sign a new contract for reducing days

If mum is refusing t sign a new contract then she will have to stick to the original one

[blue bear]

What happens if little is a bit off / accident or whatever and needs to go home from pre school, had your friend not been working at the pre school, I assume she would be the one to collect as she is being paid by mummy to be available.
So now your friend is working at pre school is she stil,available to take him home mid session or would this put pre school over numbers?
I think mummy is right I can't see how she can charge mummy to be available if in fact she is not because she is working at pre school. That aside chikdminder needs to stick to contract regarding changing hours as once you let things go its a slippery slope.

[MiniKins]

I think your friend has an obligation to look after the mindee as a childminder normally would (the implied terms of the contract) between the hours of 7.30–9.30am and 12.00–5.00pm.

So, unless she only works at the playgroup from 9.30 to 12.00, if I were the parent I would argue that the contract could be terminated without notice under a rule called 'frustration' ~ frustration is a rule which brings contracts to an end in the event of some unforeseen event subsequent to the agreement which would make performance of obligations radically different from that envisaged and changes the party's principal purpose for entering into the contract.

Sorry, but (subject to the above timings) your friend is in the wrong here.

[Helen79]

I don't think your friend should be charging mum, maybe if she was volunteering at the nursery but if she's getting paid then she's doing 2 jobs at once and being paid for both. I think she's being a bit cheeky really asking mum to pay when she's doing another job.
Did she ask whether mum was happy for her to take on the job at the nursery before she started working there? Unfortunately I think she may have breached her contract by taking on the job.
Has she checked with Ofsted if she's allowed to work at the nursery and childmind at the same time?

[FussyElmo]

I don't think your friend should be charging mum, maybe if she was volunteering at the nursery but if she's getting paid then she's doing 2 jobs at once and being paid for both. I think she's being a bit cheeky really asking mum to pay when she's doing another job.
Did she ask whether mum was happy for her to take on the job at the nursery before she started working there? Unfortunately I think she may have breached her contract by taking on the job.
Has she checked with Ofsted if she's allowed to work at the nursery and childmind at the same time?

Im not sure how she has breached her contract. The cm is working at the playschool while the child is attending Im guessing she is still taking the child and then taking them home.

Other cm work 2 jobs and Ofsted are not bothered.

[adedwards68]

I think the confusion here is that while mindee is at playgroup she is under the care of playgroup not the childminder.
I think it's a little bit cheeky to expect the mindees parent to pay whilst the mindee is at playgroup, as the childminder isn't available to work those hours as a "childminder"

[ziggy]

thanks for replies, it is a tricky one

seems mummy was happy about arrangement until she wanted to reduce days without notice

so glad i have such lovely parents

[Jenna]

This is tricky i charge in full for hours at playgroup if I take and pick up and I know that if child was a little unwell (but not really ill) or something came up resulting in child not going to play-school that dayI'd be there to look after him. However if your friend works there what would happen then? Personally I'd feel guilty charging a parent when I am working else where at the time.

[Helen79]

Im not sure how she has breached her contract. The cm is working at the playschool while the child is attending Im guessing she is still taking the child and then taking them home.

Other cm work 2 jobs and Ofsted are not bothered.

There's nothing wrong with having a 2nd job while cm'ing, I've done it. I would have thought that working a 2nd job while being paid to cm would be a breach of the contract though.
I think most cm'ers who still get paid while mindees are at pre-school do so as they can't fill the space for just a few hours with another child and so that they can be called to pick up in case of an accident. If the cm'er is working at the nursery then she can't take on any more children as a cm and can't be fully responsible for the mindee if there was an accident or he was poorly.

[FussyElmo]

There's nothing wrong with having a 2nd job while cm'ing, I've done it. I would have thought that working a 2nd job while being paid to cm would be a breach of the contract though.
I think most cm'ers who still get paid while mindees are at pre-school do so as they can't fill the space for just a few hours with another child and so that they can be called to pick up in case of an accident. If the cm'er is working at the nursery then she can't take on any more children as a cm and can't be fully responsible for the mindee if there was an accident or he was poorly.

As long as the cm fulfils her contract of dropping off and picking up she has not breached the contract. If the mindee was to have an accident or was poorly is it not the parents responsibility to collect.

In fact seeing as she is working at the mindees playschool puts her in an ideal position if the playschool was to close she would be on hand to take the mindee home and not have to travel.

[MiniKins]

Unless she only works at the playgroup from 9.30 to 12.00 or there are any specific terms in the contract to cover this situation:

1) Between 7.30–9.30am and 12.00–5.00pm the contract was between the parent and the childminder for the child to be looked after in a childminding setting (the implied terms of the contract), not in a playgroup every day.

2) Your friend has chosen to break those implied terms (if it was within in her control), or the contract has been 'frustrated' (if it was out of her control).

3) Either way, the parent has a right to immediate termination without notice.

Frustrated contracts

[Bridey]

If your friend is being paid to be available as a childminder then I cannot see how she can be paid for doing another job at the same time. As a parent I would NOT be happy. I would regard it not only as a contract breach but as a complainable offence to Ofsted and give immediate notice.

[ziggy]

we're in Northern Ireland so dont have Ofsted, thankfully

I can see both sides of this BUT it would appear parent was happy about the situation until she was asked to give 4 weeks notice of change of hours.

I just think it is very sad and petty. Just glad i did right thing by letting this child/parent go 2 years ago.

If parents cant discuss problems face to face without resorting to nasty texts and threats then they wont get my sympathy, sorry.

Last i heard my friend was refusing to take child without new contract being signed and i dont blame her.

[peanuts]

shes not available as she is working at the playgroup. I was in this situation and as i was working at the playgoup that would be getting paid twice. I completely see the mums point of view. You really cant have your cake and eat it sometimes.

[ziggy]

yes, i see what is being said but in all honesty, friend wasnt looking to have her cake and eat it lol.

She was helping out at playgroup and as i said the parent didnt have a problem with the arrangement until friday. Friend has been working at playgroup for at least a month so parent had plenty of time to voice any concerns. In my view she is just being petty because friend is insisting on 4 weeks notice of change of hours.

anyway, thanks for replies, cant say i'm really any clearer about 'rules' but good to have help n support from this forum, thanks