ratios

[carlyr]

Hi everyone
This may sound like a slily question but I'm confused in the amount of children under five I can have at any one time. I thought it was no more than three (I have a daughter so this includes her too) but my daughter was four in November an I've heard that as she's four an in full time school 9-3.30 every day it frees me up to have another under five? Can somebody please let me no if this info is correct. Thanks in advance.

[bunyip]

EYFS Statutory Framework 3.40 applies:-

If children aged four and five only attend the childminding setting before and/or after a normal school day, and/or during school holidays, they may be cared for at the same time as three other young children.

So far so, good. However, Ofsted's interpretation of EYFS adds an additional complication when the child in question is your own. They assume there will be occasions when your child will need to be sent home/collected from school during your working day, or an unexpected school closure. Either of these would put a CM above her/his permitted ratios. So Ofsted tend not to allow a CM to apply 3.40 where his/her own child is concerned. Also, it is not always possible to get round Ofsted's interpretation by saying, "OK then, I'll get Aunt Sally or Nanna to collect my child if necessary." Ofsted will simply decide that's not a 100% fail-safe arrangement cos Aunt Sally's car may be off the road, or Nanna may be in hospital or holidaying in the Bahamas, etc. Or indeed, if the school closed due to say, snow, then the transport situation may not allow you to get your daughter to another relative's home anyway.

Yes, I know it's all a bit contrived, but it's just what Ofsted seem to have ruled. On a recent thread, another member said your back-up plan has to be "bomb-proof" to satisfy Ofsted, which is probably not too strong a way of putting it.

[LauraS]

Bunyip, I thought the rising 5's applied universally, whether it was your child or not? I was under the impression that for any child who is four or five and in full time school, they would 'count' in the 5 and over age bracket even during the holidays and after school, whether your child or a mindee. I gather there were occasionally problems getting certificates amended to reflect the increase in numbers allowed when the rising five was one of your own, but that was to do with the Ofsted call centre's doziness and misinterpretation rather than a difference in the application of the rule.

The change in self-management of variations should mean that the OP can just apply the rising five rule and take on another child (so long as no more than 6 overall), but I'd be very careful about her age as I don't think she is old enough. OP, if your child just turned 4 in November, she would currently be in her (part-time) nursery year at school rather than her (full-time) reception year, wouldn't she?

[AliceK]

Yes if your own (or any other child) is still 4yrs but in Full-Time school then they can be classed as out of your EYFS numbers so you could take on another child.

xx

[bunyip]

Bunyip, I thought the rising 5's applied universally, whether it was your child or not? I was under the impression that for any child who is four or five and in full time school, they would 'count' in the 5 and over age bracket even during the holidays and after school, whether your child or a mindee. I gather there were occasionally problems getting certificates amended to reflect the increase in numbers allowed when the rising five was one of your own, but that was to do with the Ofsted call centre's doziness and misinterpretation rather than a difference in the application of the rule.

The change in self-management of variations should mean that the OP can just apply the rising five rule and take on another child (so long as no more than 6 overall), but I'd be very careful about her age as I don't think she is old enough. OP, if your child just turned 4 in November, she would currently be in her (part-time) nursery year at school rather than her (full-time) reception year, wouldn't she?

Yes, I kinda thought the same about the universality of the rising 5s rule. However, I then saw a couple of forum threads where CMs were being told otherwise for the reason in my earlier posts (own-child, what if they need collecting, etc.). I called Ofsted to enquire. I must say my own situation is a little different, as I look after my grandchildren rather than a DS/DD. Ofsted said I was OK, but thought it would be different for an actual parent. They said they'd generally not allow it for a CM's own children, but it would be on a case-by-case basis (which is a bit of a contradictory statement, IYAM, but that's Ofsted for you. )

I've a horrible feeling this might be one of those situations where the answer depends on who you speak to at Ofsted. The answers given by the phone-bods at Ofsted (even when they'll give you an answer and not just say "refer to the regulations") aren't always consistent with what you'd get from another employee or what inspectors seem to be looking for. It doesn't help that we can no longer get a definitive answer in writing in the form of a variation decision. We're being left to make up our own minds on some grey areas, then we're at the mercy of an inspector's personal viewpoint.

I'm personally very reluctant to give the OP any categorical advice, "yes" or "no". On one hand, I wouldn't want to put them off taking on some additional business. OTOH I don't want to say "go for it" if the next inspector is going to decide it's in breach of the rules.

I believe the age and hours issue depends on whether the lo does a full 10 sessions a week. Not sure if it differs between an independent nursery and a school-based nursery setting.

[loocyloo]

admittedly it was a few years ago, but when my own children started full time school in the september, they moved into the 5-8 category, and i had my certificate amended to alter the number of EY children i was allowed, and my own children didn't turn 5 until the april of the following year.

[~Grasshopper~]

no its right, i got my numbers increased when ds1 was in school full time last year. as they are in full time school they are classed as an over 5 for your ratio's.

x

[sarah707]

My understanding is that the rising 5 rule is for every child - your own or childminded - once they are in full time 10 sessions a week school.

I have this one in writing from Ofsted.

Sadly some people on the helpline do give out the wrong information - however, it's in the EYFS so you can always refer to that if you are questioned by an inspector.

Hth

[carlyr]

Thankyou all for your replies.. I've just realised I had stated radios instead of ratios lol predictive txt lol so just to confirm Sarah although my daughter has just turned four in November I can take on another eyfs child? My daughter is in nursery school five days a week all day 9-3.30.

[blue bear]

You say your daughter was 4 in November, it may be different where you are but here a chikd that age would not start school until sept 2013?
When I checked they mean full time in reception class, it doesn't include full time in nursery class even if it is in a school.

[sarah707]

Thankyou all for your replies.. I've just realised I had stated radios instead of ratios lol predictive txt lol so just to confirm Sarah although my daughter has just turned four in November I can take on another eyfs child? My daughter is in nursery school five days a week all day 9-3.30.

I changed your title lol!

The law states 10 sessions a week school - reception class - not nursery or pre school. The child must be rising 5 - nearly 5 - not just 4.

Hth

[TAZ]

My ratios too have always been changed by Ofsted once each of my children started school full time aged 4. Discussed with Ofsted each time (3x in total)

[kimnolan87]

This is a very contradictory issue as, like many others I have been told two different things - I mind twins who turned four at the beginning of October and like the OP, they attend full time school nursery.

When I phoned Ofsted and asked for their advice, they were very blunt and stated that it must be school education!

I contacted my local early years team and the early years advisor told me that the twins COULD be classed as rising 5.

However, I didn't act upon this (good job, really) and when I was inspected I discussed this matter with the inspector. The way she explained it was that, the twin's mum, could take them out of school nursery and place them with me, full time - as it's not compulsory education. Once the children are in reception, this is when they can be classed as rising 5, and therefore attend compulsory education.

Hope this helps xxx