New regs - confused cm (not me!!!)

**marnieb** · 23-10-2012, 10:48 AM

Righto - have been on a course, kept upto date as much as i can on here, but not had my new cert through yet, so no idea what they say....

As far as I'm aware, in a nutshell, we are now allowed (under execeptional circumstances etc) we can have 6 under 8, 1 of those an under 1, and obviously less if our own kids are under 8 and are therefore included in this ratio.

Right??????

So, just spoke to a cm on way back from school, and she says there are now - no restrictions at ALL!!!???????? - we can have as many kids as we want but only 1 under 1?????

I'm sure she's wrong, or am I????

& if anyone can point me in the direction of an Ofsted sheet to print off to give her, please let me know!!!!

**sarah707** · 23-10-2012, 10:56 AM

You are right Marnieb - your friend is confused.

She needs to re-read the statutory requirements - it is clearly set out what we can and cannot do.

Hth

**Mouse** · 23-10-2012, 10:59 AM

There seems to be such a lot of confusion over this. I have spoken to cms who are adamant they can now care for 6 children under 5 if they want, not including ther own children.

This is the Ofsted factsheet

Ofsted | Factsheet: childcare - The numbers and ages of children that providers on the Early Years and Childcare Registers may care for

**marnieb** · 23-10-2012, 11:08 AM

Thanks ladies - I've printed off page 4 of the Ofsted doc that clearly staes no more than 6 at any time, and that is in exceptional circumstances. Tho i dont know if this cm will pay any attention to it!

This is exactly what I was afraid of what would happen with these new regs.........

**JCrakers** · 23-10-2012, 11:24 AM

Its a shame the new regs are open to so much confusion and also abuse of the system.

They'll be a handful of minders out there thinking they can have as many kids as they want and also take on new business

and we are not going to find out what happens to minders who are overminding until inspections.
Plus how do they determine who has overminded by mistake and who has done it out of greed?

**bunyip** · 23-10-2012, 12:06 PM

There seems to be a small number of CMs who don't appear to have actually read the new EYFS, and believe they can go their own sweet way relying entirely on heresay and wishful thinking. (I don't mean anyone on these boards.)

I know 2 CMs personally who don't believe the EYFS applies to them because, to paraphrase their comments, "Ofsted won't send me a printed copy, so why should I worry about it if they don't?" and "I've been childminding X-years and I've sen it all. They can't decide on the regulations and keep changing them every 5 minutes."

If/when they get caught, I assume they'll behave like the child in the playground caught doing something they shouldn't and plead innocence because, "a big boy told me to do it."

**lisa1968** · 23-10-2012, 01:06 PM

...who would want to care for 6 under 5?????

**2kidsunder5** · 23-10-2012, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by lisa1968

...who would want to care for 6 under 5?????

Not me that's for sure

BuggsieMoo · 23-10-2012, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by lisa1968

...who would want to care for 6 under 5?????

I care for 3 under 2 and thats hard work (and back strain pushing a triple

) would dread to care for 6 under 5

**JMcG** · 23-10-2012, 10:57 PM

It is really confusing tho as if you have a situation where it sits slightly outside the rules but ofsted could issue a variation and you knew you were safe, you now are just taking a massive gamble on whether to do it or not! It seems it just down to your opinion and your inspectors opinion on the day. I even called ofsted about a variation issue and they wouldnt even really listen, told me I had to decide for myself. I just dont think they want to admin associated with variations. Its a shame as I will probably just say no to a situation if I'm not entirely sure it would be ok.

**bunyip** · 24-10-2012, 08:44 AM

I wonder if Ofsted have become worried about the liability aspect if something goes wrong.

They used to issue variations on the strength of an on-paper application, without a specific premises visit. If there was then an accident, maybe an insurer might argue that Ofsted were partly liable for allowing it? Perhaps this has occurred to the Ofsted bosses, so they no longer want to get involved in variations?

It looks like they're only accepting the "continuity of care" argument automatically for under-1s and 'rising-5s'. Other cases appear to depend on there being "exceptional circumstances" and therefore only for a very short period of time. They've been on record as saying that if an arrangement lasts for more than a few weeks then it ceases to be "exceptional".

If anything, although the rules on numbers have changed very little, Ofsted inspectors may well be starting to toughen up on the interpretation/application of those rules. Personally I think it's very risky to push the boundaries at this moment in time. It'll be interesting to see what the overall pattern of the first few months of inspections under the new regs will demonstrate.

**CH1957** · 24-10-2012, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by Mouse

There seems to be such a lot of confusion over this. I have spoken to cms who are adamant they can now care for 6 children under 5 if they want, not including ther own children.

This is the Ofsted factsheet

Ofsted | Factsheet: childcare - The numbers and ages of children that providers on the Early Years and Childcare Registers may care for

I was even told this by my DO, shes says as long as you dont have any LO's in 5-8 age group you can do this. I personally think shes wrong after reading the Ofsted factsheet but a bit worrying that the peope who should know all the facts dont!

**bunyip** · 24-10-2012, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by CH1957

I was even told this by my DO, shes says as long as you dont have any LO's in 5-8 age group you can do this. I personally think shes wrong after reading the Ofsted factsheet but a bit worrying that the peope who should know all the facts dont!

Yup, I've also heard that sort of BS from DOs and trainers.

The best response is to sit them down with a copy of EYFS and a highlighter, and ask them to mark exactly where it says that.

**Mouse** · 24-10-2012, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by bunyip

Yup, I've also heard that sort of BS from DOs and trainers.

The best response is to sit them down with a copy of EYFS and a highlighter, and ask them to mark exactly where it says that.

This is one of the first sections of the factsheet with the sections highlighted that I assume they would mark. I think it's called selctive reading

1. From September 2012, in most cases, we will no longer set out the numbers and ages of children that registered providers may care for through conditions of registration. Registered providers may decide how many children they can care for in line with the legal requirements. These are set out in section 3 of the Statutory framework for the Early Years Foundation Stage and the relevant regulations for the Childcare Register. This will allow providers to be much more flexible in the service they offer without having to ask our permission to make changes. For example, if a group provider decides they want to take more two-year-olds and fewer three- to five-year-olds, they can make the necessary changes by referring to the relevant sections of the Early Years Foundation Stage (EYFS). We will check that providers continue to meet the requirements at inspection.

They seem to have skipped the parts mentioning 'in line with the legal requirements', or 'statutory framework' & 'regulations'.

**bunyip** · 24-10-2012, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Mouse

This is one of the first sections of the factsheet with the sections highlighted that I assume they would mark. I think it's called selctive reading

1. From September 2012, in most cases, we will no longer set out the numbers and ages of children that registered providers may care for through conditions of registration. Registered providers may decide how many children they can care for in line with the legal requirements. These are set out in section 3 of the Statutory framework for the Early Years Foundation Stage and the relevant regulations for the Childcare Register. This will allow providers to be much more flexible in the service they offer without having to ask our permission to make changes. For example, if a group provider decides they want to take more two-year-olds and fewer three- to five-year-olds, they can make the necessary changes by referring to the relevant sections of the Early Years Foundation Stage (EYFS). We will check that providers continue to meet the requirements at inspection.

They seem to have skipped the parts mentioning 'in line with the legal requirements', or 'statutory framework' & 'regulations'.

Too right, Mouse.

Maybe Ofsted should've said, "You can offer to be more flexible, but just hope to god that the inspector's viewpoint coincides with your own." ?

Whenever I see a CM asking about increasing numbers, I have a nightmare vision of the Ofsted inspector standing over them like Dirty Harry saying, ".....you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"