Learning & development - other settings

[bunyip]

Does anyone else struggle like me with any of the following issues:-

1. Child transfers to me from another CM (who is moving - no 'bad' reasons for notice.) I contact previous CM for transfer of L&D notes, to be told there are none. CM did no records, observations, reviews, etc. claiming they were not the 'main setting' (lo also attends pre-school). IIUC the main setting does the 2 year progress check, but shouldn't a child spending 15-21 hours at a CM's have some sort of L&D notes? This CM is graded 'good' with some aspects 'outstanding'.

2. Child transfers from a nursery, and was also attending preschool. Neither setting had completed the 2 year progress check, as the nursery and preschool each claim the other is the 'main setting'. The lo spent 1 more hour each day at preschool during term-time, but when holiday attendance is taken into account, spent more total hours over the year at nursery. Who should've done the 2 year check? Parents don't know who to complain to.

3. Child transfers to me from a (different) nursery: parents very unhappy about how he was treated - always soiled and thirsty on collection, and staff called him names. I call the nursery to be told, first, they won't discuss it with me. Then, when I produce ID and Ofsted certificate, they say no records were kept because he was troublesome and no photos (because "he looked a bit disabled" yes, I was shocked too). Then they later back-pedalled and claimed records had been been kept, but were subsequently destroyed.

4. Over the last couple of years, I've minded 7 children on and off from the same pre-school. I hesitate to say their L&D records are identical, but they are remarkably similar, with every child achieving at or above expected developmental norms. But the evidence of my observations is that some of them are 'below' in some aspects of L&D. I realise children behave differently in different settings, but there's too much of a pattern here. I asked the key workers how they check achievements. Their responses tended to suggest that each child 'gets a particular box ticked' (for want of a better phrase) if they are part of a group that is doing something, irrespective of their level of participation/engagement. eg. Little chap I have has very little interest in books and never joins in with repeated phrases or recalls stories. Preschool says he does all of this because he joins in with the group. But I strongly suspect he's just copying the other children with little idea of what it's all about. Is it cynical to suggest the setting is desperate to present children (to parents/Ofsted?) as 'achieving' when they may need a little more time and support? I do worry that children may not be getting the help they need because practitioners don't want to be seen to be the place where lo's are 'failing to thrive'.

Where does all this leave us with regard to 'partnership working'?

[hectors house]

It doesn't sound as if the Nurseries you are dealing with are doing individual observations at all and no clear communication between them on who is doing 2 year checks if child attends 2 settings.

I went to visit a Nursery to see mindees Key worker - we compared our ECAT sheets as I felt this child had speech pronounciation problems - the key worker although she had only known this child a few months had highlighted "child can be understood by other people", I said I hadn't ticked that as most of the other mindees parents have trouble in understanding this child - the keyworker replied well maybe it's because I'm used to children supplementing when sound for another! Well so am I, but that doesn't mean that strangers who don't know her can understand what she is saying!

[gef918]

After trying numerous times to contact a pre-school, I eventually managed to see his LJ. It was useless - just said which activities he had been doing, without any information about how he had been doing it or what learning he showed. I imagine there were identical LJs, just with different photos attached.

My daughter attended two pre-schools when she was 3, each for 2 days a week. One pre-school said that they hadn't completed any paperwork, because she was going to the other pre-school. They did show me a few post-it notes they had written though - all with negative comments. As the teacher was going through these with me, I could see she was trying desperately to find something positive to say - eventually she said that she could turn the pages of a book one at a time. FYI by the age of 2, she knew her shapes, colours, numbers and letters. I took my daughter out of that pre-school immediately!

[Muddy Puddles]

Muddy puddles
Interesting thread. The following has confused me this week
I provide care for a child in a reception class for 2 hours a week and the occasional inset day.
In January the parents asked me if I could add an additional 2 hour after school care on another night which I couldn't offer so she attends the local nursery that collect from the school. I understand from mum for 2 evenings a week.(4 hours in total each week) not just 1.
I have tracked her progress within the EYFs be it a small learning journey. I offered it to the nursery to look at to be told we don't track reception aged children!!!!! Not my understanding of EYFS.

[blue bear]

Does anyone else struggle like me with any of the following issues:-

1. Child transfers to me from another CM (who is moving - no 'bad' reasons for notice.) I contact previous CM for transfer of L&D notes, to be told there are none. CM did no records, observations, reviews, etc. claiming they were not the 'main setting' (lo also attends pre-school). IIUC the main setting does the 2 year progress check, but shouldn't a child spending 15-21 hours at a CM's have some sort of L&D notes? This CM is graded 'good' with some aspects 'outstanding'.

2. Child transfers from a nursery, and was also attending preschool. Neither setting had completed the 2 year progress check, as the nursery and preschool each claim the other is the 'main setting'. The lo spent 1 more hour each day at preschool during term-time, but when holiday attendance is taken into account, spent more total hours over the year at nursery. Who should've done the 2 year check? Parents don't know who to complain to.

3. Child transfers to me from a (different) nursery: parents very unhappy about how he was treated - always soiled and thirsty on collection, and staff called him names. I call the nursery to be told, first, they won't discuss it with me. Then, when I produce ID and Ofsted certificate, they say no records were kept because he was troublesome and no photos (because "he looked a bit disabled" yes, I was shocked too). Then they later back-pedalled and claimed records had been been kept, but were subsequently destroyed.

4. Over the last couple of years, I've minded 7 children on and off from the same pre-school. I hesitate to say their L&D records are identical, but they are remarkably similar, with every child achieving at or above expected developmental norms. But the evidence of my observations is that some of them are 'below' in some aspects of L&D. I realise children behave differently in different settings, but there's too much of a pattern here. I asked the key workers how they check achievements. Their responses tended to suggest that each child 'gets a particular box ticked' (for want of a better phrase) if they are part of a group that is doing something, irrespective of their level of participation/engagement. eg. Little chap I have has very little interest in books and never joins in with repeated phrases or recalls stories. Preschool says he does all of this because he joins in with the group. But I strongly suspect he's just copying the other children with little idea of what it's all about. Is it cynical to suggest the setting is desperate to present children (to parents/Ofsted?) as 'achieving' when they may need a little more time and support? I do worry that children may not be getting the help they need because practitioners don't want to be seen to be the place where lo's are 'failing to thrive'.

Where does all this leave us with regard to 'partnership working'?

Whilst 1 and 2 are of no surprise to me number three need reporting for those comments, how dare they? Surely they can't destroydocuments on a child, they either go back to the parent as per ico or kept until child is 21 years 6 months as per data protection?

I think I have been very lucky the two pre schools I've recently dealt with produce excellent learning journals, that are individual and accurate. I found the best way to get partnership working to be effective is to tell them what they are going to do in order that they comply with ofsted, I put it like I'm helping them out so to speak.

[hectors house]

Muddy puddles
Interesting thread. The following has confused me this week
I provide care for a child in a reception class for 2 hours a week and the occasional inset day.
In January the parents asked me if I could add an additional 2 hour after school care on another night which I couldn't offer so she attends the local nursery that collect from the school. I understand from mum for 2 evenings a week.(4 hours in total each week) not just 1.
I have tracked her progress within the EYFs be it a small learning journey. I offered it to the nursery to look at to be told we don't track reception aged children!!!!! Not my understanding of EYFS.

I don't think that providers offering "wrap around care" for children who attend school for at least 10 sessions as week (so full time) ie: Childminders & nurseries who offer before/after school care and holiday sessions/club have to continue to monitor and record for the EYFS.

[bunyip]

Whilst 1 and 2 are of no surprise to me number three need reporting for those comments, how dare they? Surely they can't destroydocuments on a child, they either go back to the parent as per ico or kept until child is 21 years 6 months as per data protection?

I think I have been very lucky the two pre schools I've recently dealt with produce excellent learning journals, that are individual and accurate. I found the best way to get partnership working to be effective is to tell them what they are going to do in order that they comply with ofsted, I put it like I'm helping them out so to speak.

The parents reported the nursery, but I gather Ofsted failed to inspect. They simply phoned the nursery and accepted their excuses. ie. Nursery simply said the parents had been given the child's records, and denied the other allegations.

However the nursery was inspected following a complaint shortly afterwards. A couple of parents were concerned that one of the staff kept a dog tethered in the outdoor play area on many occasions. The nursery couldn't deny it as photos had been taken. They tried to claim the dog had been brought in once as an educational experience, but a number of parents refuted this claim. It turned out the nursery worker thought it cruel to leave the dog at home all day cos she couldn't get home to walk it. Never mind the fact that some lo's didn't like it, and it was reportedly toileting in the play area.

The nursery got inspected and lost its Good grading, down to Satisfactory. I've come across several things there that I'd not be happy about as a parent. It's run by a pair of ex-CMs who used to go to our children's centre and were always making nasty comments about the staff. They had to be asked to leave cos as well as being generally unpleasant they used to monopolise the baby area and make hot drinks for themselves, which is against the centre rules, never mind common sense and safety.

It's not being going long but already has a bad reputation. But it is always full. I think it just shows that too many parents will accept poor standards for the sake of convenience, as it is centrally located for the town it is in and has good parking.

[sarah707]

It is shocking that we do so much and many nurseries seem to get away with much less. It's something we have raised at the Ofsted Big Conversation meetings and will talk about again when we next meet.

I know cms who have had 7+ hour inspections and had their paperwork picked over - while nurseries don't seem to have the same amount of focus on how things are written up. It's very frustrating.

Keep battling on Bunyip - just record what you can - shortcomings and all and do your own baseline assessments on entry, with starting points taking you into individual learning as quickly as possible

[Mouse]

I have changed the way I approach other settings. I always used to think, and it seems that many others cms are the same, that WE should be fitting in with their planning, complimenting what they do or continuing it in our setting. Why? Because they are the bigger setting and we're the childminders?

I have 4 mindees who attend other settings and have struggled to get anything from them. I have been writing termly reports, sending them to the pre-schools, but getting nothing back. I have even sent questionnaires that would only take them a couple of minutes to complete, but have never had a single one back. I don't drop or collect at any of these pre-schools, so don't have any contact with them. I know I could phone and arrange a visit, but why should I? They're not making any effort to contact me.

So, I changed the way I do things. It occurred to me that for all these children I am the main provider, so all the other settings should be following what I do (although I know very well they won't). I was writing to them asking them to share their planning with me, but having nothing on file to show as a response. Now I send them an assessment summary, a planning summary and a letter saying that as the child's main provider I am sharing my development assessment and planning, so that their setting can incorporate into their own planning. I don't need a response as I'm not asking for anything from them. I still think it meets the requirement of sharing information, but it gets rid of the need for me to be using their planning. I still record comments made by parents and children about pre-school, so I can use them if I need to, but I no longer have a gap in my folder from asking for info, but not getting it.

[Mouse]

It is shocking that we do so much and many nurseries seem to get away with much less. It's something we have raised at the Ofsted Big Conversation meetings and will talk about again when we next meet.

I know cms who have had 7+ hour inspections and had their paperwork picked over - while nurseries don't seem to have the same amount of focus on how things are written up. It's very frustrating.

Keep battling on Bunyip - just record what you can - shortcomings and all and do your own baseline assessments on entry, with starting points taking you into individual learning as quickly as possible

When one of my mindees started at a new pre-school I read their ofsted report. One of the criticisms was that they didn't work in partnership with other settings, particularly childminders. It was a recommendation that they had to put methods in place for doing this. It was the first time I'd seen a pre-school picked up on it and I was very hopeful that they'd actually share info with me. Unfortunately, despite siblings having been there over the last 3 years, I have never had a single reply to my request for sharing info.

[Simona]

It seems to me that 2 out of the 4 associations represent the whole sector...nurseries, preschools and CMs...maybe that is the way to start approaching this subject and putting forward ideas on how to improve professional relationships

I very clearly raised this matter with mine and the response was positive...it will take time but I think it is worth the effort...especially now with the issue of 2 year olds in schools and other reforms in the pipeline

[hectors house]

I have changed the way I approach other settings. I always used to think, and it seems that many others cms are the same, that WE should be fitting in with their planning, complimenting what they do or continuing it in our setting. Why? Because they are the bigger setting and we're the childminders?

I have 4 mindees who attend other settings and have struggled to get anything from them. I have been writing termly reports, sending them to the pre-schools, but getting nothing back. I have even sent questionnaires that would only take them a couple of minutes to complete, but have never had a single one back. I don't drop or collect at any of these pre-schools, so don't have any contact with them. I know I could phone and arrange a visit, but why should I? They're not making any effort to contact me.

So, I changed the way I do things. It occurred to me that for all these children I am the main provider, so all the other settings should be following what I do (although I know very well they won't). I was writing to them asking them to share their planning with me, but having nothing on file to show as a response. Now I send them an assessment summary, a planning summary and a letter saying that as the child's main provider I am sharing my development assessment and planning, so that their setting can incorporate into their own planning. I don't need a response as I'm not asking for anything from them. I still think it meets the requirement of sharing information, but it gets rid of the need for me to be using their planning. I still record comments made by parents and children about pre-school, so I can use them if I need to, but I no longer have a gap in my folder from asking for info, but not getting it.

I agree - why should I change my planning to fit round several different Nurseries - also I'm not that worried that they don't share their planning with me anyway as if I was choosing to do eg: Numbers 1-10 and when I started it the child could already count and recognise numbers to 10 then I wouldn't still make them do it, I would move onto 11-20.
I did have on my last inspection that I must try to work more with other settings but I don't see why I should do all the running - I have visited 3 Nurseries in the last year, on my day off, introduced myself and given copies of reviews - they have never contacted me and 2 out of the 3 are "outstanding". I just continue to send in reviews and wait for the parents to photo copy their child's Nursery reviews/reports so I can read and add to LJ.

[loocyloo]

I have 2 mindees at different school nurseries; with both I have email contact with the teachers and although it is usually ( always ) initiated by me, they reply quickly and we pass information to each other.
1 mindee at preschool ... its like getting blood from stone, even when I visit!
1 mindee at private school nursery ... no response to letters/emails/phone messages/receptionist! I just write in childs LJ 'letter sent to nursery' 'email sent to nursery' etc !

[jackie 7]

a friend sent her daughter to a local nursery one of their observations was that <<< talks lots and lots. why are they not being downgraded on their observations when cm's are. oh yes agencies!

[Simona]

It can be very frustrating and also irritating when our efforts are ignored...
I have also sat in a meeting with many preschools saying CMs are hard to pin down or share info with or unwilling to share paperwork
Who is right ...or indeed is anyone right?

This issue has been debated for years and still no solution in sight
I don't think we should be changing our planning to suit theirs and neither should they adapt to ours...we are totally different but we have a common framework called EYFS!...and I think the aim on this matter is clear on what we should do...the one thing that has no need for interpretation

It is a question of sharing a little of what we both know about a child whose care we share...it is a matter of establishing relationships that are professional for the children's benefit

I too have felt exasperated in the past ...and having a few hiccups at present but ...where there is a will there is a way...and I will try to get past the barriers if I can.
My view of course...in the end it will benefit the children if we succeed or we are left worrying whether Ofsted will downgrade or give recommendations for lack of interaction with colleagues.

[bunyip]

I recently did a review for one particular child. He has no interest in books, stories, rhyme, music, making, painting, etc. He obstinately refuses to engage in anything but his own personal favourite activities. His communication is behind where it should be.

Mum was shocked and visibly upset at my assessment. Essentially, she just wants to hear that all is well - but it isn't (not seriously bad, but just at that stage where you want to see a bit more progress so he doesn't slip too far behind and it become a real problem IYSWIM.) She kept insisting that preschool say he's fine. So I agreed to check with them. Got hold of his last preschool L&D notes and, yes, they have him 'on track' or 'ahead' in all aspects. Then I looked again in detail. Apparently "xxxx loves painting and making things". He never has a painting with him when I collect him from preschool. He occasionally has 'makes' but I suspect these are knocked together by staff, cos they don't want mum to be upset if she's the only mum not to get a Christmas card on the last day of term etc.

So I challenge his key worker and she insists he "joins in with the others". So I ask can I see eg's of his painting, etc. on the wall or in his file, cos he never has any to take home. There are none. I know when we do painting he just sits and demands his favourite toys or sits at the table with his head down. Key worker eventually admits he does similar there.

But they're still checking off his 'achievements' cos they don't want to upset mum or have development records that might not impress an inspector.

I eventually decided to do 2 separate trackers and tick-lists of DM for mum to see. One was my honest assessment; the other included all the stuff preschool had allegedly "observed" but I hadn't. I've put copies on file in case Ofsted ever want to look into the disparity. I gave copies to mum. I explained she needs to get over being upset about it and suggested she also asks preschool what is going on. I said I could (like preschool) just tell her what she wants to hear, and send her away happy. Or I could tell her my honest appraisal and consider whether her child would be better served by seeking some speech and language support. At the end of the day it's her child and I will do my best by him. She can turn a blind eye but she's not going to come back in a year's time and ask why I never highlighted an area that may need attention if he is going to develop.

[Simona]

I recently did a review for one particular child. He has no interest in books, stories, rhyme, music, making, painting, etc. He obstinately refuses to engage in anything but his own personal favourite activities. His communication is behind where it should be.

Mum was shocked and visibly upset at my assessment. Essentially, she just wants to hear that all is well - but it isn't (not seriously bad, but just at that stage where you want to see a bit more progress so he doesn't slip too far behind and it become a real problem IYSWIM.) She kept insisting that preschool say he's fine. So I agreed to check with them. Got hold of his last preschool L&D notes and, yes, they have him 'on track' or 'ahead' in all aspects. Then I looked again in detail. Apparently "xxxx loves painting and making things". He never has a painting with him when I collect him from preschool. He occasionally has 'makes' but I suspect these are knocked together by staff, cos they don't want mum to be upset if she's the only mum not to get a Christmas card on the last day of term etc.

So I challenge his key worker and she insists he "joins in with the others". So I ask can I see eg's of his painting, etc. on the wall or in his file, cos he never has any to take home. There are none. I know when we do painting he just sits and demands his favourite toys or sits at the table with his head down. Key worker eventually admits he does similar there.

But they're still checking off his 'achievements' cos they don't want to upset mum or have development records that might not impress an inspector.

I eventually decided to do 2 separate trackers and tick-lists of DM for mum to see. One was my honest assessment; the other included all the stuff preschool had allegedly "observed" but I hadn't. I've put copies on file in case Ofsted ever want to look into the disparity. I gave copies to mum. I explained she needs to get over being upset about it. I said I could (like preschool) just tell her what she wants to hear, and send her away happy. Or I could tell her my honest appraisal and consider whether her child would be better served by seeking some speech and language support. At the end of the day it's her child and I will do my best by him. She can turn a blind eye but she's not going to come back in a year's time and ask why I never highlighted an area that may need attention if he is going to develop.

Bunyip...what you highlight is another issue that needs to be addressed and that is that both preschools and cms need to understand and respect each other

It is not a very good situation you describe and seems to me there are 2 very different approaches to this

What is really needed is common training, sitting in the same room and listening to each other and bashing out our problems and difficulties and trying to overcome them

Maybe you should attempt to meet with the manager and talk this out...I know I would if our assessment differed so much
Also worth checking who does the actual assessment ...in many nurseries the key person does the obs but the manger writes the assessment...it maybe things go missing in this process.

[bunyip]

It can be very frustrating and also irritating when our efforts are ignored...
I have also sat in a meeting with many preschools saying CMs are hard to pin down or share info with or unwilling to share paperwork
Who is right ...or indeed is anyone right?

I know there are some CMs who think L&D is just more unnecessary paperwork. But if my experience is anything to go by, I think I know why a lot of CMs may be unwilling to share with other settings.

The way Ofsted inspect and assess 'information sharing' means that CMs who are caught on a 'one way street' get penalised.

To explain, I give a lot of information to my local school and get next to nothing back from them. When they get inspected, they have all the stuff I send them to show Mrs O. Hey presto: wonderful evidence of how the school "works in partnership with other settings". When Mrs O knocks on my door, I have virtually nothing from the school to show her: just copies of my correspondence to them, with "no reply forthcoming" written by me in red ink. I know other CMs who are having exactly the same problem, and they're being told by inspectors that they are at fault. Apparently, if we don't receive information from other settings it's entirely our fault for not working hard enough to communicate properly.

If only Ofsted would cross-refer inspection data between settings. When Mrs O goes to the school and find the evidence that I am passing information to them, that should be recorded on my file at Ofsted HQ. And when she's here and finds the school tells me nothing, that should be noted against the school's performance.

[shortstuff]

I know there are some CMs who think L&D is just more unnecessary paperwork. But if my experience is anything to go by, I think I know why a lot of CMs may be unwilling to share with other settings.

The way Ofsted inspect and assess 'information sharing' means that CMs who are caught on a 'one way street' get penalised.

To explain, I give a lot of information to my local school and get next to nothing back from them. When they get inspected, they have all the stuff I send them to show Mrs O. Hey presto: wonderful evidence of how the school "works in partnership with other settings". When Mrs O knocks on my door, I have virtually nothing from the school to show her: just copies of my correspondence to them, with "no reply forthcoming" written by me in red ink. I know other CMs who are having exactly the same problem, and they're being told by inspectors that they are at fault. Apparently, if we don't receive information from other settings it's entirely our fault for not working hard enough to communicate properly.

If only Ofsted would cross-refer inspection data between settings. When Mrs O goes to the school and find the evidence that I am passing information to them, that should be recorded on my file at Ofsted HQ. And when she's here and finds the school tells me nothing, that should be noted against the school's performance.

I strongly agree with you bunyip. It is an unfair system that needs reviewing currently but im not sure they want to do this. Ofsted seem to favour schools so it suits them to be able to say schools are communicating effectively.

Im not sure how we can get our point across without sounding like we are griping though.

[Simona]

I know there are some CMs who think L&D is just more unnecessary paperwork. But if my experience is anything to go by, I think I know why a lot of CMs may be unwilling to share with other settings.

The way Ofsted inspect and assess 'information sharing' means that CMs who are caught on a 'one way street' get penalised.

To explain, I give a lot of information to my local school and get next to nothing back from them. When they get inspected, they have all the stuff I send them to show Mrs O. Hey presto: wonderful evidence of how the school "works in partnership with other settings". When Mrs O knocks on my door, I have virtually nothing from the school to show her: just copies of my correspondence to them, with "no reply forthcoming" written by me in red ink. I know other CMs who are having exactly the same problem, and they're being told by inspectors that they are at fault. Apparently, if we don't receive information from other settings it's entirely our fault for not working hard enough to communicate properly.

If only Ofsted would cross-refer inspection data between settings. When Mrs O goes to the school and find the evidence that I am passing information to them, that should be recorded on my file at Ofsted HQ. And when she's here and finds the school tells me nothing, that should be noted against the school's performance.

I totally understand what you are saying...what I am trying to find out is what is the solution?

I have been in both situations...having good relationship with preschools and not good enough with a nursery
The approach was the same but in the former it was a few years ago ...the latter is happening now ...so has anything changed that has put barriers up?

I have not seen any Ofsted reports highlighting these problems so cannot comment...I can only go from my last inspection report

If Ofsted need to look in this matter...how do we bring it to their attention?
For me the easiest way is to bring it up with our EY team ...I have but got not very far apart from being told that a 'common' training would be good

I mention our associations as some represent the whole sector...would that be another way of approaching this?
I am off to another meeting this morning with mine and once again I will bring it up.

of course there is also the opportunity to flag it up at Ofsted Big Conversation which I will attempt to do in April when I attend the London one.