NDNA and DfE to trial early years ratios

[Simona]

I am shocked at this news...what do you think?
Have all our efforts been in vain?

NDNA and DfE to trial early years ratios | Children & Young People Now

[The Juggler]

i don't think they are going to listen to anyone. what makes me cross is them giving out government grant money - what a waste if they are going to do it anyway

[rickysmiths]

I am not shocked at all. Wow do you think the D of E would give Childminders funding to test out having 4 under 5s?

No I am not shocked because I truly believe that they will increase their numbers because it increases their profits and look mow they are being paid by me the Tax Payer to have a go!! What a laugh they are very, very cleaver aren't they.!!

[Mouse]

I read the article eagerly, hoping they were going to fund childminders to trial the increase as well!

I already have 4 under 5s most days, but wouldn't have minded a bit of funding for telling them how I do it

[rickysmiths]

i don't think they are going to listen to anyone. what makes me cross is them giving out government grant money - what a waste if they are going to do it anyway

No to the Nurseries who receive it. They are laughing every step of the way to the bank.

[Simona]

Some reflections ...NDNA is the representing associations for day nurseries so why they have gone against their members' wishes we do not know
That should be interesting when nurseries come out and voice their opinion on this during the pilots?

Could this move work in favour of cms if parents worry about the higher ratios in nurseries and we mostly keep to ours with maybe 4 under 5s?
It will be interesting to see whether lowering the number of staff and increasing the children will actually save money?
if the trials show that it does save money will the savings go to the parents or to the nurseries already struggling for sustainability?

what will PLA's response be in this?? and ncma?

Strangely enough I posted info on 2 conferences in another thread and NDNA CEO will be at the one on 5 June...that will be interesting as this topic is bound to come up?
Still so many questions but this move is quite hard to understand!

[Simona]

This is NDNA press release on the work they will be doing...it involves cms!!
I wish someone would explain what this is all about..this is very similar to what 4Children will be doing!

Strange that all these charities have been awarded money for such projects but not ncma? curious indeed!

National Day Nurseries Association | press releases | NDNA uses Department for Education grant to support quality and sustainability

[rickysmiths]

This is NDNA press release on the work they will be doing...it involves cms!!
I wish someone would explain what this is all about..this is very similar to what 4Children will be doing!

Strange that all these charities have been awarded money for such projects but not ncma? curious indeed!

National Day Nurseries Association | press releases | NDNA uses Department for Education grant to support quality and sustainability

Not curious at all because pacey will not have anything to do with Agency Models and a lot of this work will I am sure lead to this.

The Nurseries don't care about cm and I strongly suspect they will introduce the higher numbers and as I said before they may reduce the costs in some palces and charge more in some where they think parents will pay for lower ratios.

I really don't care, let them hang themselves and if it leads to my business continuing to be more sustainable then good. They are my rivals in business after all.

[Simona]

Rickysmiths...with all DUE respect...I do not really care what ncma will do or otherwise...
Are you saying all these projects are 'agency' based and ncma has washed its hands of what damage they may do to cms...or the fact they may indeed help independent cms??
ncma are against agencies..a good reason for questioning what is happening under our very nose

I would like ncma to issue a statement about all this..it is long overdue...maybe you could encourage them to come out in support of their members who have pleaded for some clarification for several weeks now and do it in ncma local which is their vehicle for speaking to us

Your comments appear to be splitting cms and nurseries...after we achieved some sort of integration I wonder if it is helpful
Preschool and nurseries have strong representation...what do we have? an association that has opened its arms to everyone and cms, in my view, will lose out!

[Simona]

NDNA have explained that they will be running 12 trials on 'Integrated wrap around care' with day nurseries, cms, schools and academies

This is very similar to what 4Children will do with their grant and, I believe, it has been referred to as 'childcare hubs'

I have been asking ncma for an explanation, clarification or interpretation on what this project will mean for cms but so far they have not responded

I feel cms are owed an explanation as to why other organisations are being granted money for these projects and what effect it will have on our businesses

[mama2three]

Im as worried by the 'hubs' as by the agencies now!

as far as I can see the central hub will allocate nursery / preschool places to children and fill the times before 9 and after 3/6 with childminders. Childminders who would quite probably be better for the child ALL DAY. We are just filling the gaps , whilst the 'real' care / education isnt available. Right back to a 2 tier system in one fell swoop. And cant they see that those children will still use our limited spaces. We cant afford to take them on at 'afterschool' rates - those 3 early years spaces are what makes us viable businesses. very few could afford not to fill them.
This is a step ( in my view) to 2 yr olds and over in schools..they need to get the wrap around care in place as the schools arent going to extend their hours are they. That spoof 'babyfarm' article is looking less and less ridiculous.

[Simona]

The worry comes from not being clear about this ...all we can do is ask for clarification over and over again
I have just posted another message to ncma and will continue to do so until they reply and, if not, a letter to the CEOs will follow.

I am attending a conference in early June where there will be an interactive discussion with the Ofsted Principal Officer on the following: inspection intervals, more stringent workforce requirement and a possible move to cms hubs'

That tells me all is in place so cms should have the right to know what is coming and prepare!!

[sarah707]

I have been reading comments on other forums and groups about this funding with interest.

Some of the comments have seemed very unfair to me. Without proper knowledge and information I don't think we can judge.

I look forward to hearing your feedback Simona

[Simona]

ncma have responded about this funding and they are unsure themselves and worried about these trials and have asked NDNA to clarify further...
lets hope we do get one but these childcare hubs seem to be the buzz word at present

For those interested this is the agenda for the 13 June conference on The future for Early Years and Childcare...the discussions at 9.30 ands 10.20 are a bit of an eye opener!

http://www.westminsterforumprojects....-childcare.pdf
I will feedback as much as I can

[lisbet]

Im as worried by the 'hubs' as by the agencies now!

as far as I can see the central hub will allocate nursery / preschool places to children and fill the times before 9 and after 3/6 with childminders. Childminders who would quite probably be better for the child ALL DAY. We are just filling the gaps , whilst the 'real' care / education isnt available. Right back to a 2 tier system in one fell swoop. And cant they see that those children will still use our limited spaces. We cant afford to take them on at 'afterschool' rates - those 3 early years spaces are what makes us viable businesses. very few could afford not to fill them.
This is a step ( in my view) to 2 yr olds and over in schools..they need to get the wrap around care in place as the schools arent going to extend their hours are they. That spoof 'babyfarm' article is looking less and less ridiculous.

This ^ is the impression I have got from all I've read on the subject.

Things, for example, like the MGC document defining childminders as offering "care" and nurseries as offering "care and education" - looks like the principles of the EYFS are being unravelled, just like ECM seems to have been swept under the carpet...

The plans to remove space restrictions and remove the need for a dedicated early years Ofsted inspection within schools will also remove barriers to schools taking in very young children.

[Simona]

Like anything in MGC all is to do with us interpreting what we read...we need facts from these charities as many blogs are being written but it is speculation and personal thoughts...

I wonder why we pay associations when we need then to search for us ...it's their job to find things out for us
NDNA is getting many request to explain and they have but it is on Facebook!! so many unable to read it...if you spot it do share!!

[sarah707]

Like anything in MGC all is to do with us interpreting what we read...we need facts from these charities as many blogs are being written but it is speculation and personal thoughts...

I wonder why we pay associations when we need then to search for us ...it's their job to find things out for us
NDNA is getting many request to explain and they have but it is on Facebook!! so many unable to read it...if you spot it do share!!

The NDNA FB group links to this article

NDNA | Childcare Training | Regional EYFS Training for Nurseries

[Chatterbox Childcare]

It sounds like the "12" areas are setting up agencies to me as they are including all early years workers

I expect PACEY will come out with something and soon....

[Simona]

ncma have not been able to provide an answer...see ncma local... but have asked NDNA to come out with clear explanations..
We are back to speculating! very unhelpful!

[Simona]

And here is the answer from NDNA...unfortunately not very clear on childcare hubs when you look at 'integrated wraparound care'..one line and no explanation!!

'To those of you who have raised concerns about the article in Children & Young People Now, we'd like to set the record straight on this story. We are clear that it's about deployment of staff under the current EYFS, not about trialing new ratios proposed by government. The following message is what we are sending out - hope it helps to clarify .....

Following an article in Children and Young People Now, NDNA has addressed some misunderstanding of the work that it is planning to do to support members under its Department for Education Grant. Over the next two years NDNA will be working under the grant to support the early years sector in England to develop high-quality, sustainable childcare to meet the needs of children and families. The funding we will receive from DFE is £500,000 in 2013-14 with a similar amount in 2014-15.

Our activity will include:
• Fifty-four training events across England over the next two years. These events will use up the majority of the grant to roll out subsidised training to nurseries, responding to the feedback we’ve had from members on the reduction you are seeing in local authority training and support. The first series of these events is now underway on the theme of Supporting a Child’s Journey Through the Early Years, covering tracking children’s learning, promoting positive behaviour and meeting children’s individual needs. See: NDNA | Childcare Training | Regional EYFS Training for Nurseries

• Two small pilot projects

o Staff flexibility – working with 15 daycare providers to test models of staff deployment and flexibility

o Integrated wrap-around care – 12 trials bringing together day nurseries, childminders, schools and Academies

• Maths Champions – recruiting EYPs as local maths champions to inspire practitioners to develop their own maths skills and to lead innovative practice in maths for under fives.

To prevent any misunderstanding of NDNA’s staff flexibility trials NDNA has shared more details on the trials. There has been an overwhelming message from NDNA members that relaxing the childcare ratios is a risk to the quality of care for children. NDNA has been asking government to stop, rethink and listen to evidence from the sector and academics. The trails are not about testing out government plans to alter ratios, but to contribute to the evidence which is lacking in the UK on how staff can be flexibly deployed to ensure high-quality provision that meets the needs of every child.

• Trials will take place within the overall ratio and qualification requirements of the current EYFS

• A total of 15 high-quality nurseries will be asked to volunteer to take part in the trials

• Trials will run for one month, with a strong focus on evaluation of the trials and learning from the experiences and expertise of the practitioners involved

• The trials will be practitioner-led, with the practitioners involved putting forward their ideas on using staff differently across the nursery to meet individual children’s needs

• The proposal for trials was discussed with NDNA’s Board of Trustees and National Policy Committee – made up of elected regional chairs, sector experts and academics. There was a general feeling that international comparisons are unhelpful as they do not compare like with like and we need to have evidence from UK settings on deploying staff more flexibly within the current EYFS regulations whilst ensuring quality

• Trials will be on provision for 2-5 year olds and not involve under 2s.
We've been in touch with members who've voiced concerns about the story in CYP Now yesterday to set the record straight on what we are really doing - here's the message we're sending. We're clear that the trials are about deployment under the EYFS as it is now, not trialling government's proposals for ratios.' (end)

Are you any clearer?