BBC news 17.5 -

**sarah707** · 17-05-2013, 07:10 AM

BBC News - David Cameron indicates childcare changes compromise

I think ... I hope ... they are finally starting to listen!

What do you guys think?

**CH1957** · 17-05-2013, 07:15 AM

Its the agencies Im more worried about, its hard enough trying to get work in my area now

**mama2three** · 17-05-2013, 07:15 AM

Oh I hope so.....
but even the article cant get the numbers right ...

Under the proposals, each childminder or nursery worker would be able to look after four children aged under two - one more than at present.

If the children are aged two, the childminder or nursery worker can now take on six, rather than the current limit of four.

**Kiddleywinks** · 17-05-2013, 07:15 AM

To be fair, not raising the ratios doesn't mean they'll stop the agencies, and the agencies is my biggest concern.
A responsible minder wouldn't abuse higher ratios, but if the agencies go ahead there may not be enough work to 'go around' so the 'compromise' is moot

**Mouse** · 17-05-2013, 07:24 AM

Unfortunately it's not something I'm going to get excited about.

I don't think they're listening to childcare workers at all, least of all childminders. If they were they'd realise agencies pose more of a threat to cost, quality and safety than ratios do.

As I've said before, ratios are a small part of MGC that they're using as a smokescreen - they'll look as if they're listening and acting, then in the background the more damaging changes are sneaking in unchallenged.

**sarah707** · 17-05-2013, 08:05 AM

I do know exactly what you are saying Mouse - but the forum has worked so hard to fight against the damaging ratios changes - as well as fighting against other aspects of the 'More Great Childcare' plan of course - but just one small concession would be better than nothing for a lot of people at this stage!

Agencies - yes of course they are a worry - but I prefer to put all my efforts into planning for my own future sustainability and working out how I can continue as an independent childminder.

I can't be worrying about what 'might' happen - I need to focus on me and how we can all work together to stay independent.

xx

Simona · 17-05-2013, 08:09 AM

Any compromise is welcome and to talk about being allowed 2 babies in future is utter rubbish when we can do so now

Messrs Cameron, Onsborne, Alexander should concentrate on what is making childcare costly not ratios...after all they have Truss with her degree in economica to do the sums!!

Agencies are a worry but please look at my post about the ncma working with various charities to create 'childcare hubs'...THAT is the problem and if you access ncma local look at the debate there...keep informed and start asking questions!!!

**Mouse** · 17-05-2013, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by sarah707

I do know exactly what you are saying Mouse - but the forum has worked so hard to fight against the damaging ratios changes - as well as fighting against other aspects of the 'More Great Childcare' plan of course - but just one small concession would be better than nothing for a lot of people at this stage!

Agencies - yes of course they are a worry - but I prefer to put all my efforts into planning for my own future sustainability and working out how I can continue as an independent childminder.

I can't be worrying about what 'might' happen - I need to focus on me and how we can all work together to stay independent.

xx

I have said that from the very beginning. I couldn't understand the hysteria and scaremongering that accompanied the very first talks of any changes. I often said I couldn't get myself worked up about what 'might' happen and needed ,'facts' before I would start to worry. I lost count of the number of times I was shot down for not working myself up into a jibbering wreck!

Ratio changes have never concerned me personally. Agencies don't greatly concern me as I have no plans to join one. What does concern me is the continued lack of information we have when these changes are supposed to be introduced in just a few months time.

**FussyElmo** · 17-05-2013, 08:39 AM

Shall we take it as positive that the government are beginning to listen.

Agencies for childminders are never going to be a vote winner the fact they have put it in the children and families bill suggest they will happen.

In my eyes children going into school at 2 is more of an issue to my business. I know one school in my area is at the min discussing at governor level opening up to 2 yos.

We do actually need the entire mgc thrown out.

**Mouse** · 17-05-2013, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by FussyElmo

Shall we take it as positive that the government are beginning to listen.

Agencies for childminders are never going to be a vote winner the fact they have put it in the children and families bill suggest they will happen.

In my eyes children going into school at 2 is more of an issue to my business. I know one school in my area is at the min discussing at governor level opening up to 2 yos.

We do actually need the entire mgc thrown out.

Do you think they're like children and have selective hearing, only listening to the bits they want to

It has to be seen as a positive that the whole issue is being talked about at a higher level. It did seem at one point as if it was all being swept under the carpet, so it's good that it's gaining media interest again.

And as another positive, because they are still misquoting the proposed ratios for childminders, I have had parents worrying that I'm suddenly going to double my numbers. I can tell them that the proposed number of six two year olds applies to nurseries, not childminders. For parents who are concerned about numbers, a childminder is definitely looking the better option

**FussyElmo** · 17-05-2013, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by Mouse

Do you think they're like children and have selective hearing, only listening to the bits they want to

It has to be seen as a positive that the whole issue is being talked about at a higher level. It did seem at one point as if it was all being swept under the carpet, so it's good that it's gaining media interest again.

And as another positive, because they are still misquoting the proposed ratios for childminders, I have had parents worrying that I'm suddenly going to double my numbers. I can tell them that the proposed number of six two year olds applies to nurseries, not childminders. For parents who are concerned about numbers, a childminder is definitely looking the better option

Now me being cynical thinks they are only listening to anything that might be a vote winner

**Mouse** · 17-05-2013, 09:19 AM

I get the feeling childcarers are being used as political pawns

**murrayspud** · 17-05-2013, 09:57 AM

The ratios issue was always going to be used as a vote winner if it gets put into place in " we have created x amount of new childcare spaces so that more hard working families can return to work" etc etc etc.

I do hope that higher level government are finally listening to all our concerns about all aspects of the proposed changes.

Ratios for me personally is not a concern (I am only allowed 3 children under 8 anyway due to planning restrictions and nobody has yet realised that an easy fix would be to remove these restrictions and allow OFSTED limits to be in place, opening up 3 extra spaces for each childminder in my area, and in other areas too I suspect), and agencies are not something I intend to join, so I will be marketing myself as an Independent childminder, but will continue to support and raise awareness of issues that concern me. I do think alot of parents will be hookwinked into believing that using an agency childminder will be their best option. We need to keep awareness up and hope that somebody high up is prepared not only to listen but to do something about it too.

Simona · 17-05-2013, 10:06 AM

FussyElmo I agree with you...we are concentrating on ratios once again when the threat is agencies and, more precisely, 'childcare hubs'..the new buzz word!

4Children has been awarded over £700,000 to 'bring together daycare and cms to develop a financially sustainable model for more flexible childcare'...would you say that is some kind of agency model?

Action for Children have been awarded nearly £1m to recruit '630 new cms to help meet demand for free childcare entitlement'...so these new cms get to draw the funding while established cms fight a losing battle with their LAs?

It appears, according to ncma statement, cms will be recruited in areas of need

Truss is proposing cms look after 4 under 5 (2 babies)...isn't that what we can do now in EYFS 12 under exceptional circumstances?

In the end ratios are our choice but agencies or childcare hubs are not...they will threaten our sustainability...also why fund charities and not LAs to recruit cms and ringfence that funding for accountability?
Why get rid of LAs and bring another middleman?
who will offer support/training to independent cms if LAs disappear while cms in hubs will get all that....

How many more tiers of cms will be created? these are the questions we should be asking

Everyone is rejoicing that a compromise can be found with ratios ...where is the compromise for agencies??
We can't just hope, we need to put pressure on this as the whole workforce has concentrated on ratios we have been left behind

**Daftbat** · 17-05-2013, 12:43 PM

I agree with lots that has been said here. The other thing that I keep hearing from Govt is that if nurseries and childminders can provide care for more children it will reduce the costs to parents........... Which planet do they live on? Of course we will all drop our prices if we can have more children - I think not!!!!! Great business model that is to the population!

**rickysmiths** · 17-05-2013, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by mama2three

Oh I hope so.....
but even the article cant get the numbers right ...

Under the proposals, each childminder or nursery worker would be able to look after four children aged under two - one more than at present.

If the children are aged two, the childminder or nursery worker can now take on six, rather than the current limit of four.

It has been changed now.

**The Juggler** · 17-05-2013, 12:50 PM

let's hope they do something and listen to some experts finally. I don't care why they do it - for their own political ends - as long as they are fighting against it

**Mouse** · 17-05-2013, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by rickysmiths

It has been changed now.

It's still not quite right though, is it?

"Home-based childminders would be allowed to look after two babies under one, instead of one as currently, and four one-to-five-year-olds, up from three"

It's the "and" that confuses things. It makes it seem we can have 2 babies and 4 one-to-five yr olds.

Why can't they say "a childminder would be able to look after 4 under fives, a maximum of two of those being under 1"?

**rickysmiths** · 17-05-2013, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Simona

FussyElmo I agree with you...we are concentrating on ratios once again when the threat is agencies and, more precisely, 'childcare hubs'..the new buzz word!

4Children has been awarded over £700,000 to 'bring together daycare and cms to develop a financially sustainable model for more flexible childcare'...would you say that is some kind of agency model?

Action for Children have been awarded nearly £1m to recruit '630 new cms to help meet demand for free childcare entitlement'...so these new cms get to draw the funding while established cms fight a losing battle with their LAs?

It appears, according to ncma statement, cms will be recruited in areas of need

Truss is proposing cms look after 4 under 5 (2 babies)...isn't that what we can do now in EYFS 12 under exceptional circumstances?

In the end ratios are our choice but agencies or childcare hubs are not...they will threaten our sustainability...also why fund charities and not LAs to recruit cms and ringfence that funding for accountability?
Why get rid of LAs and bring another middleman?
who will offer support/training to independent cms if LAs disappear while cms in hubs will get all that....

How many more tiers of cms will be created? these are the questions we should be asking

Everyone is rejoicing that a compromise can be found with ratios ...where is the compromise for agencies??
We can't just hope, we need to put pressure on this as the whole workforce has concentrated on ratios we have been left behind

Not sure what you mean by this? From Sept ALL Ofsted Registered childcarers, so this means Ofsted registered Nannies as well, will be able to access the free funding for children in their care. You will not need a Level Three or be inspected to a certain level or above and your LA will be breaking the law if they try to put any extra hoops in the way. That is the information as I have posted on here before, from the Dept of Education. It is fact and will have to happen so these new childminders will not have any advantages over currently registered childminders in terms of accessing the funding.

I do agree with you that there has been far too much fuss over the ratios and I don't know why so many childminders are getting hot under the collar about Nursery Ratios. Let it go ahead many cms have been caring for 4 under fives and 2 under ones very successfully for years, indeed I had had two under ones permanently on my certificate for many years (and still do because I have yet to receive my new cert!!). If this has to be monitored to make sure the cm is capable enough then allow experienced cm, say those who have been reg at least 5 years and have a full Level 3 have it on their file but if newer cm want it then they have to apply to Ofsted and pay say a £25-30 admin fee.

Let the Nurseries hang themselves, whatever they say at the moment they will gradually reduce staff and increase numbers because it will make them more money. If they do this and parents don't like it them maybe more parents will choose childminders and especially if we can all offer the free hours. I think we have missed a trick and as a result we have not paid enough attention to the Agency matter which will affect us and help the Nurseries because the system in my view will make getting a place at a cm of your choice even harder. In 5 years if it goes ahead all the good cm will have gone, there will be less homogenised , all the same mediocre cms that will be access via an agency. There will be no incentive to be an good or outstanding minder.

I for one am looking at what I could be doing in 3-5 years that is not cm. When without Agencies I would have continued for another 10 years.

We need to start hammering home about the stupidity of the Agency model.

**FussyElmo** · 17-05-2013, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mouse

It's still not quite right though, is it?

"Home-based childminders would be allowed to look after two babies under one, instead of one as currently, and four one-to-five-year-olds, up from three"

It's the "and" that confuses things. It makes it seem we can have 2 babies and 4 one-to-five yr olds.

Why can't they say "a childminder would be able to look after 4 under fives, a maximum of two of those being under 1"?

Because that would be talking in plain English or at least knowing what you trying to report