Update from Pacey regarding claiming training with HMRC

[Chatterbox Childcare]

This was posted on the pacey local forum today which is good news for everyone. I asked them to clarify with the HMRC on claiming for training costs. Please consider this when you next see that Pacey do nothing for childminders.


Hi Debbie

Sorry for the delay, we've been waiting for HMRC to clarify this and now I have their answer I will do my best to explain:

You cannot claim the training expenses when getting the initial skills to set up as a childminder, however once you are trading as a childminder you can claim training expenses when enhancing your skills. These must be necessary for your work, for example if there was a Childminding refresher course that you had to do annually etc then this would generally be allowable, equally as mentioned, safeguarding and first aid courses are essential and so are allowable.

The vital point is that any training claimed must only be essential for you to do childminding, in other words enhancing your knowledge, if asked you would need to prove that it was essential for you do this training to continue and enhance your work.

An example of something you wouldn't be able to claim would be if you did an art course at college; although you might do art with the children, this would not be essential for the job and so would not be seen as being related to your work and so not allowable.

The issue with any additional training or qualification you may take is that is has to be proved that it is purely for your current Childminder role, if it is a more generic qualification that is transferable it may not be allowable as it is not specific to this job.

Link to HMRC info BIM42526 - Specific deductions: administration: own training courses

[loocyloo]

Thank you very much and thank you pacey.

[tulip0803]

Thank you for asking the question and for the info

[Emra81]

Thank you for that x Can I just check that I've read that right though...you CANNOT claim for initial training to set up as a childminder?! Surely that's essential training seeing as you literally cannot register without it? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? :-S

[Koala]

THANK YOU PACEY - I'm not sure what for or am I missing something?

From what I can see nothing further has been achieved - all that has been clarified is that you can claim first aid and safeguarding courses and childminder refresher courses and any other courses that you take are arguably 'not essential' whether it be child development, play, nvq's etc... etc.... as these are 'not essential' to being a childminder i.e. you don't have to have them to be a childminder. Even though they are imo essential for cpd.
From what I have read all you can claim for is what the government state you have to legally have to be registered as a childminder, therefore - the bare minimum - and no cpd as this could arguably be transferred elsewhere and again 'not essential.
The art course analogy is totally unhelpful and a bit condescending imo. But that may just be me.
And the fact that you can't claim initial training costs to qualify as a childminder is outrageous. And I cannot believe pacey would accept that this is fair.


Please tell me I have got it wrong. I can't see where pacey have done anything to support a childminder in claiming for their expenses for cpd except to just re distribute HMRC stance on screwing us over.

I hope I don't offend anyone and again I would love to be corrected.

At the bottom of this post - it may have gone - is an add for level 2 food safety - £15 on line course - using this as an example (more apt than the pacey analogy) - it is arguably not essential for being a childminder (desirable and would enhance your skills) and is transferable therefore would not be allowable as an expense??

[Chatterbox Childcare]

THANK YOU PACEY - I'm not sure what for or am I missing something?

From what I can see nothing further has been achieved - all that has been clarified is that you can claim first aid and safeguarding courses and childminder refresher courses and any other courses that you take are arguably 'not essential' whether it be child development, play, nvq's etc... etc.... as these are 'not essential' to being a childminder i.e. you don't have to have them to be a childminder. Even though they are imo essential for cpd.
From what I have read all you can claim for is what the government state you have to legally have to be registered as a childminder, therefore - the bare minimum - and no cpd as this could arguably be transferred elsewhere and again 'not essential.
The art course analogy is totally unhelpful and a bit condescending imo. But that may just be me.
And the fact that you can't claim initial training costs to qualify as a childminder is outrageous. And I cannot believe pacey would accept that this is fair.


Please tell me I have got it wrong. I can't see where pacey have done anything to support a childminder in claiming for their expenses for cpd except to just re distribute HMRC stance on screwing us over.

I hope I don't offend anyone and again I would love to be corrected.

At the bottom of this post - it may have gone - is an add for level 2 food safety - £15 on line course - using this as an example (more apt than the pacey analogy) - it is arguably not essential for being a childminder (desirable and would enhance your skills) and is transferable therefore would not be allowable as an expense??

I just clicked on the BIM and it states CPD is okay - am I missing something?

Pacey have not reiterated anything, just clarified the facts.

Maybe another organisation will do the same and get further, let us know how they go.

[Koala]

I just clicked on the BIM and it states CPD is okay - am I missing something?

Pacey have not reiterated anything, just clarified the facts.

Maybe another organisation will do the same and get further, let us know how they go.

BIM ?? I can';t find it.

Yes, pacey have reiterated what HMRC have said and imo is not fair or just, yes it is fact, however they don't get applause for stating facts, they may get applause for supporting childminders better with being able to claim all their childcare business related training expenses as expenditure which is not the case at present.

Where did you find that cpd is covered?? I found certain aspects are claimable but this is very strict rules about claiming purely on the basis of what training you absolutely need to be registered as a childminder are allowable (which was reiterated by pacey)not training over and above the basics which is what cpd generally is. i.e. nvq, degree, etc.... etc... This is what I feel a childminding organisation should be fighting for and they should be ashamed that it isn't the case. Nurseries, school etc... etc... are able to claim these costs and even get burseries from government to train their staff accordingly where do we end up?? paying for it with our taxes.

[Chatterbox Childcare]

BIM ?? I can';t find it.

Yes, pacey have reiterated what HMRC have said and imo is not fair or just, yes it is fact, however they don't get applause for stating facts, they may get applause for supporting childminders better with being able to claim all their childcare business related training expenses as expenditure which is not the case at present.

Where did you find that cpd is covered?? I found certain aspects are claimable but this is very strict rules about claiming purely on the basis of what training you absolutely need to be registered as a childminder are allowable (which was reiterated by pacey)not training over and above the basics which is what cpd generally is. i.e. nvq, degree, etc.... etc... This is what I feel a childminding organisation should be fighting for and they should be ashamed that it isn't the case. Nurseries, school etc... etc... are able to claim these costs and even get burseries from government to train their staff accordingly where do we end up?? paying for it with our taxes.

Click on the blue writing in the original thread first post. I got this for cpd with the purpose of up-dating their skills and professional expertise is normally revenue expenditure, which is deductible from the profits of the business

Lots of other information there.

[Koala]

Click on the blue writing in the original thread first post. I got this for cpd with the purpose of up-dating their skills and professional expertise is normally revenue expenditure, which is deductible from the profits of the business

Lots of other information there.

Yes but I read further as it advises, it refers you to BIM35660 - Capital/revenue divide: intangible assets: proprietor's training courses
Expenditure incurred by the proprietor of a business on training courses for themselves is revenue expenditure if the course merely updates existing expertise or knowledge. Expenditure on a course which provides new expertise or knowledge is capital.

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Yes but I read further as it advises, it refers you to BIM35660 - Capital/revenue divide: intangible assets: proprietor's training courses
Expenditure incurred by the proprietor of a business on training courses for themselves is revenue expenditure if the course merely updates existing expertise or knowledge. Expenditure on a course which provides new expertise or knowledge is capital.

but either way it would be an expense - just which sort? think this is getting a bit deep. I was just trying to answer a lot of questions, especially that of one childminder who was being investigated and being told that she couldn't claim anything.

As always, if people need clarification I sign post them to their accountant.

I have re read the example and they are talking about a english tutor who wanted to claim law expenses - which of course you cannot claim which is the scenario that was given with the art example by pacey.

[Koala]

but either way it would be an expense - just which sort? think this is getting a bit deep. I was just trying to answer a lot of questions, especially that of one childminder who was being investigated and being told that she couldn't claim anything.

As always, if people need clarification I sign post them to their accountant.

I have re read the example and they are talking about a english tutor who wanted to claim law expenses - which of course you cannot claim which is the scenario that was given with the art example by pacey.

Don't get me wrong - I think all training in connection with your business should be an allowable expense but it clearly is not according to HMRS and cpd comes under this umbrella of non allowable expenses. It wouldn't even be an allowable expense under capital. It clearly states that only training expenses that are allowed are what you need to perform your business i.e. when I first started it was First aid and an introduction to childminding practice (ICP), (off course it is dependent on whom you are registered with) A lot seems to be hid in smoke and mirrors - pacey imo havn't given a straight, useful answer and hmrs provides a lot of reading to interpret the outcome for yourself and then we have media and government saying we should be more qualified - but it seems we have to pay for it out of taxed income. I know its a difference of probably 25% we are talking but I would prefer not to have to pay an addition percentage on work related training - I pay enough tax as it is.

I think if you read through all the case studies and advice you will find that cpd is not an allowable expense which is ridiculous imo. And this is why I cannot thank pacey - and again what would they be thanked for? It's been a long time since I have seen them fight for childminders. I would thank pacey for giving better facts instead of HMRS jargon. I'm not anti pacey or HMRS for that matter but I am anti the smoke and mirrors approach. It's not pacey' fault I know but I just don't feel they help. But thank you for your time in replying.

[sarah707]

Childminders have always done extra courses and CPD. we are having to do even more nowadays because LA courses have pretty much disappeared.

Ofsted are telling us even as recently as at our last Ofsted Big Conversation at the weekend that providers with higher qualifications gain better inspection outcomes - it's hardly rocket science is it?

Yet now we are told that we can't claim expenses for online training courses and foundation degrees and other training to improve ourselves - even if we have no intention of doing anything other than childminding.

What I don't understand is why this was not tackled when the original agreement between ncma and HMRC was first reached

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Childminders have always done extra courses and CPD. we are having to do even more nowadays because LA courses have pretty much disappeared.

Ofsted are telling us even as recently as at our last Ofsted Big Conversation at the weekend that providers with higher qualifications gain better inspection outcomes - it's hardly rocket science is it?

Yet now we are told that we can't claim expenses for online training courses and foundation degrees and other training to improve ourselves - even if we have no intention of doing anything other than childminding.

What I don't understand is why this was not tackled when the original agreement between ncma and HMRC was first reached

Whilst I understand the frustration here - everyone needs to realise that NCMA/Pacey made arrangements with the HMRC but you don't have to stick with them (I don't use the ratio percentages for example) and I read the BIM which the HMRC write no pacey as we can claim. Once again, refer to your accountants if unsure.

Also, whilst Pacey represent childminders, some defer to another membership body, ask them to represent you and get this sorted. I was only trying to help and it seems to be "shoot the messenger" or blame Pacey because it isn't what people want.

This isn't an attack or criticism against Koala or Sarah but why does everyone slate Pacey when they get the information I asked for and no other body/organisation does even this?

[Koala]

Sorry chatterbox, I didn't mean to offend you and definitely don't want to shoot you.

I am just getting a bit long in the tooth to have the wool pulled over my eyes and I tend to say so and forget that sometimes I lack tact - so apologies for any offence given or taken

Thank you for your time and for sharing but I still don't have any thanks for pacey.

The reason I don't thank pacey is because I feel sold out as a childminder - what point are pacey if they are not there as an association to fight for our rights. There are many areas where I feel we are unduly and unlawfully penalized as childminders for example:- claiming training as expenses and there are other aspects which is for another day. An organisation that represents its members needs to fight against injustices and I don't believe pacey do anymore. Your correct this is my gripe and if I don't like it I should do something about it and I do not wish to be too negative but I can't keep my gob shut sometimes. I think it comes with age - everything sags

Thanks again for sharing.

p.s. I am my accountant.

[sarah707]

Blimey I have no intention of having a go at you!

I hope you know me well enough to know it's just a general frustration at the decision to disallow training when we all have to do it and Ofsted expect it and now we are told we can't claim it and it should have been thought about and ..... and ...... I get it in the neck when giving the advice too.

Sorry chatterbox please accept my apologies if I have said anything that might cause offence xx

[Chatterbox Childcare]

I think I need to go back and read it all again with a clear head because I read it that we can claim all cpd and essential training once we are up and running.

Koala and Sarah as I said I haven't taken this personally and am not offended by you or anyone (I am pretty thick skinned )

[hectors house]

Thank you for sharing - I don't really care whether PACEY or HRMC say I can claim for my CPD courses or not, I shall continue to claim for them - as I said on a previous post, when I go on courses on "Observation & Planning" or Managing Positive Behaviour and Nursery staff are attending then that proves to me that these courses are relevant to me as a Childcare professional - I know the Nursery staff aren't paying for themselves, their employers the Nursery are putting this an an expenses through their accounts.

[Koala]

Thank you for sharing - I don't really care whether PACEY or HRMC say I can claim for my CPD courses or not, I shall continue to claim for them - as I said on a previous post, when I go on courses on "Observation & Planning" or Managing Positive Behaviour and Nursery staff are attending then that proves to me that these courses are relevant to me as a Childcare professional - I know the Nursery staff aren't paying for themselves, their employers the Nursery are putting this an an expenses through their accounts.

Too right Hectors house - but it seems to be one rule for one and screw the childminder! because we are so small - can you imagine teachers going on a course and then being told "you have to pay for it yourself" ? -NO! The NUT would have something to say about that - but what do pacey say? there I go again

One good thing I have realized is the best way of obtaining valuable online cpd is using childcare companies (childcarecouk do it) free training packages when registering with them - registration is tax deductible element without question and yes I may swallow my pride and join pacey again for that very reason.

[Simona]

I cannot understand why Cms are confused by this?

Any pre registration training is paid for by the CM ...possibly by using the grant (if they claim that grant which is still available from the DfE) but it will not go very far...once your business is set up then what you claim has to be related to cminding.

The question to answer is: would you spend that money on it if you were not a cm? Would you do Paediatric First Aid if you did not care for children? would you do safeguarding?

What Pacey have said is hardly rocket science...it has been so for the last 20+ years

The rules governing CMs and HMRC is open to all to see and anyone who has an accountant will know they follow them

CPD has always been part of our good practice...Ofsted in their guidance say they will check our qualifications
It was EPPE that confirmed qualifications lead to better outcomes in 2004 not Ofsted

All in all CMs are trying to become mini accountants and understand the complicated rules of HMRC and home based businesses...it is far more complicated than just looking at a guidance

With training being paid for by cms in future this needs to be addressed...not just by pacey but all associations because agencies will certainly do that for their members...did Truss not say Cms need help in running their business?

My suggestion remains the same...look into using a qualified accountant

[rickysmiths]

I think I need to go back and read it all again with a clear head because I read it that we can claim all cpd and essential training once we are up and running.

Koala and Sarah as I said I haven't taken this personally and am not offended by you or anyone (I am pretty thick skinned )

My Accountant has always made me include all Training costs and CPD so magazines, newspapers, workshops, internet access etc etc.

What does surprise me is the setting up Training . How can that not be a legitimate expense because if you don't do it you are not going to be able to Register as a Childminder? A bit like saying to a Window cleaner you can't claim for your first ladder, bucket and cloth but any bought after that fine!!!