Paying your children for helping?

[fionamadcat]

I read on another thread that you can claim if you pay your children for helping you do childminding relating things is this only if they are teenagers? My daughter is 8 but she does allsorts to help me, she cleans and tidies the playroom, plays with the little 1's etc, I give her a couple of pounds a week pocket money for doing this. Can this be put through as an expense or would I be pushing my luck!!!

[rickysmiths]

I read on another thread that you can claim if you pay your children for helping you do childminding relating things is this only if they are teenagers? My daughter is 8 but she does allsorts to help me, she cleans and tidies the playroom, plays with the little 1's etc, I give her a couple of pounds a week pocket money for doing this. Can this be put through as an expense or would I be pushing my luck!!!

If you are giving her this amount solely because she is helping you then yes you can put it through your books as an expense.

[Chatterbox Childcare]

No you cannot. Sorry Ricky but if you read Mr A's post about this it clearly states in law that the child must be 13 and you have to have your local authority approval

I am not saying that you cannot pay an 8 year old but it isn't an expense

[Heaven Scent]

What do you have to ask your local authority for - I mean what's it called????

[MrAnchovy]

An employment permit or work permit.

[NI MINDER]

You wound a bit like me - my own kids know that if they are helpful with the mindees that there is an extra treat at the weekend -whether its a magazine or something they have been after or maybe couple extra pounds pocket money. Would never have thought of putting through books though.

[Milli147]

I do this in the holidays, my own two help out loads and the mindees like having them around, so I 'pay' them at the end of the week.
I never want them to go back to school afterwards - I start thinking I can't do it on my own!!!:blush:

[rickysmiths]

Well I have to contradict both on this. If you are paying a very small some as pocket money for help you do not need neither a Permit from your local authority. You a are not in any sense of the word employing your child and you can put a small amount through if the task is soley for help with your childminding business.

This permit is intended to protect young people who take on paper rounds or Saturday or similar part time paid employment They are signed by the employer, school and the parents so all parties are aware of the hours the young person is employed because there are strict rules covering they days and times young people still in full time education can work. Debbie it is different if they are Registered as your Assistant because in a sense you are then Employing them because they are covered by your Employees insurance. Giving a child a couple of pounds pocket money to help with a specific task in relation to your childminding, with the greatest respect is not employment. If this was the case all parents who ask for chores to be done before the payment of their childrens pocket money should all have a Permit from their local authority which is not the case.

For this level of help it is my understanding you do not need a permit. The best thing to do would be to ring your local authority and ask them if you need one to pay your children pocket money for small tasks carried out in the home.

It was at my accountants recommendation I did this and I know Debbie you have come on in the past and said this kind of small payment can be put through. This is why I choose to go to an accountant for advise with regard to my accounts. She is a very experienced and highly regarded professional who specialises in small self employed businesses so why would I have any reason to doubt her recommendations? I shall continue to put through the £10pw that I currently do until she advises me otherwise.

[rickysmiths]

You wound a bit like me - my own kids know that if they are helpful with the mindees that there is an extra treat at the weekend -whether its a magazine or something they have been after or maybe couple extra pounds pocket money. Would never have thought of putting through books though.

Yes but you see you can put a small amount though on your expenses. £2pw for example is £104 per year.

My accountant put through £1200 on my accounts on my last tax return for all the help my teenagers give me in a week on average. This includes going on some outing in the holidays with mindees that I would not be able to do on my own and them being with me for a whole day.

[MAWI]

My teenage daughter also has a work permit as she helps me most afternoons with tidying and clearing away, sorting toys, printing off worksheets for older children etc.. . I pay her between £10 and £20(school holidays)a week. This is because if she didn't help out we would probably not eat until 8pm or later.

It was easy to gain the work permit from the council, i had a visit from the childrens education officer to my house and was asked a few questions as to what she would be doing, I had to Do a RA and have employers liability, then just needed school to sign it and thats it! when permit came back it stated Nursery assistant, lol.!!

My ten year old is also a brilliant help, but I can't pay her until she is 13. She gets rewarded with Lego instead.

[Chatterbox Childcare]

You could buy something for your own children as a reward and make this an expense

Ricky yours and mine are teenagers and they do need a work permit even for 1 hour per week. It is free with my LA and came within 2 days of application

[MrAnchovy]

You a are not in any sense of the word employing your child and you can put a small amount through if the task is soley for help with your childminding business.

I don't think that you can have it both ways - either you are paying someone to do something for your business, in which case they are employed by you and the cost is an allowable expense, or they are not employed and you can't claim.

If I were a tax tribunal I would want to see a significant amount of evidence to back up a claim that annual payments of £1,200 to family members were genuine employment: not having a work permit is not going to help that.

[mama2three]

My teens are 17 and 18. If I 'employ' them to help a few hours a week are there tax/NI/pension implications also? Thankyou

[MrAnchovy]

My teens are 17 and 18. If I 'employ' them to help a few hours a week are there tax/NI/pension implications also? Thankyou

As long as they don't have any other job, you can pay them up to £102 a week each before you have to register with HMRC as an employer and operate PAYE.

If they do have another job paying less than the personal allowance (currently £7,475), HMRC may well allow you not to operate PAYE if you contact them.

There are currently no pension obligations for employers: when these do come in (phased in between now and 2016, with small employers coming at the end), these will only apply for employees over 22 years old earning more than the personal allowance.

[rickysmiths]

I don't think that you can have it both ways - either you are paying someone to do something for your business, in which case they are employed by you and the cost is an allowable expense, or they are not employed and you can't claim.

If I were a tax tribunal I would want to see a significant amount of evidence to back up a claim that annual payments of £1,200 to family members were genuine employment: not having a work permit is not going to help that.

Where I am you only need a work permit if you are employed and I have checked (I'm not completely stupid) I do not need a work permit to give my child a small amount of pocket money for helping me on an irregular basis this is not considered employment and in fact they thought it was hilarious that I had even rung to ask considering the nature and amount of hours of the help and level of 'pay'.

Though I know the regulations are different in different counties so everyone must check for themselves.

The point is they are not payment of wages for an employed position they are pocket money level payments for occasional help here and there which add up over the year. It was my accountant who suggested this, she knows my family and children well, for over 30 years in fact, and I trust her professional advise completely.

[rickysmiths]

My teens are 17 and 18. If I 'employ' them to help a few hours a week are there tax/NI/pension implications also? Thankyou

Only if they earn over their tax allowance. If they did then it would have an effect. Neither of mine are currently employed anywhere else and as soon as they are they won't have the same time to help me anyway so there won't be any pocket money payments to them anyway.

t looks like my son will be earning much more babysitting this year than what pocket money he gets from me, if things continue the way they have in Jan and Feb. I don't know any teenager at school whole declares their babysitting money?

[rickysmiths]

You could buy something for your own children as a reward and make this an expense

Ricky yours and mine are teenagers and they do need a work permit even for 1 hour per week. It is free with my LA and came within 2 days of application

No I have checked in our county you do not.

[MrAnchovy]

You a are not in any sense of the word employing your child.

Here is one Local Authority's (West Sussex) definition of "employment" (note that employment of children is governed by Local Authorities in the same way as their education etc. so different rules apply in different places):


"employment" includes assistance in any trade or occupation which is carried on for profit, whether or not payment or other reward is received for that assistance

[rickysmiths]

Here is one Local Authority's (West Sussex) definition of "employment" (note that employment of children is governed by Local Authorities in the same way as their education etc. so different rules apply in different places):

For goodness sake I don't disbelieve you at all, but it is different in different areas as you quote says, and as I have found when talking to my sister who lives in Kent and my SIL who lives in Bedford and our 6 children are all of a similar age.

I am not engaging in illicit slave labour!

[rosebud]

For goodness sake I don't disbelieve you at all, but it is different in different areas as you quote says, and as I have found when talking to my sister who lives in Kent and my SIL who lives in Bedford and our 6 children are all of a similar age.

I am not engaging in illicit slave labour! :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: :laughing::laughing:

[MrAnchovy]

For goodness sake I don't disbelieve you at all, but it is different in different areas as you quote says, and as I have found when talking to my sister who lives in Kent and my SIL who lives in Bedford and our 6 children are all of a similar age.

I am not engaging in illicit slave labour!

No, but when you say "You are not in any sense of the word employing your child" I didn't realise that you were only referring to your own situation so I thought it would be helpful to point out to anyone else who is interested that in the sense of the word used by at least one Local Authority*, anyone that provides any assistance to a childminder (who is carrying on a business with a view to profit) is in employment, and if they are below school leaving age the employer must comply with the Local Authority's regulations.



* and as it happens in Kent (http://www.kent.gov.uk/education_and_learning/school_attendance__behaviour/child_employment/parent__employers.aspx) "Assistance in any trade or occupation which is carried on for profit, whether or not payment is received for that assistance" and Bedford (http://www.schools.bedfordshire.gov.uk/im/ims/Attendance/2004%20Newbyelaws%5B1%5D.doc) "Employment includes assistance in any trade or occupation which is carried on for profit, whether or not payment is received." as well - I suspect that most LAs in the UK use a substantially similar definition.

[auntym]

Am I doing right then? When I contacted the council near me as my daughter helps me. The last on the phone said I didn't need a form as it was my daughter under sixteen and only 15 a week. 3 pounds per evening. Total five hours a wk. Because she said that all I then did was print off a p 46 and paid my daughter for the help at the end if the week...on the nights she decided not to help she didn't get paid..I then just entered whatever the amount was at the end if the week in my books.....

[MrAnchovy]

Am I doing right then? When I contacted the council near me as my daughter helps me. The last on the phone said I didn't need a form as it was my daughter under sixteen and only 15 a week. 3 pounds per evening. Total five hours a wk. Because she said that all I then did was print off a p 46 and paid my daughter for the help at the end if the week...on the nights she decided not to help she didn't get paid..I then just entered whatever the amount was at the end if the week in my books.....

All sounds right to me - you have gone through all the right steps including the P46 (I assume she ticked the box saying this is her only job) and contacting the council so you can demonstrate to HMRC that this is a genuine business expense.

[Chatterbox Childcare]

All sounds right to me - you have gone through all the right steps including the P46 (I assume she ticked the box saying this is her only job) and contacting the council so you can demonstrate to HMRC that this is a genuine business expense.

HMRC told me that they were not interested in receiving any paperwork for a first employment unless my son was earning more than the weekly taxable amount

[rickysmiths]

HMRC told me that they were not interested in receiving any paperwork for a first employment unless my son was earning more than the weekly taxable amount

That is exactly what I was advised as well.

[MrAnchovy]

HMRC told me that they were not interested in receiving any paperwork for a first employment unless my son was earning more than the weekly taxable amount

Absolutely - you don't need to send the P46 to HMRC, it is just a useful way of recording the fact that it is the only job: you can download it here (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/forms/p46.pdf) and just file it away once completed. This is perhaps a bit over the top when you are talking about your own children (you can probably rely on knowing whether they have another job or not), but it is such an easy thing to do and it does help evidence the 'genuine employment' for tax deduction as this is the procedure that you should follow for any new employee without a P45.

[clairelou]

Wow, I have read this with great interest, I have a 14 and 17 year old, neither have jobs, or earn anything apart from the 17 year old perhaps will babysit every couple of months.

They have never had pocket money but never gone without.

Is this right then? I can give them pocket money and call it expenses?
They both help enormously, printing, paperwork, tidying up, cooking our tea, feeding toddlers, helping with coats, shoes, fastening into car seats etc etc.

What a slave driver I am!!! I thought it was just part of living in our house.....

Will I really need no evidence to support me if i give them £10 a week each for helping?

[MrAnchovy]

I can give them pocket money and call it expenses?

No you can't. If your children work for your childminding business (and it is legal for them to do that work), payment to them for that work is an allowable expense.


cooking our tea, feeding toddlers, helping with coats, shoes, fastening into car seats etc etc.

Your children cooking tea for mindees may be a breach of health and safety and/or food hygeine regulations, your children fastening mindees into car seats may be a breach of your safeguarding duty, your children feeding mindees may be a breach of all three...

You don't need 'evidence' as such but you DO need to do a risk assessment for each task they may help you with, and if they have any direct involvement with mindees (including preparing or serving food, but not simply playing with them) you need to consider whether they can do that without being registered with Ofsted as assistants (which they can't be until they are 18).

[aly]

They both help enormously, printing, paperwork, tidying up, cooking our tea, feeding toddlers, helping with coats, shoes, fastening into car seats etc etc. :eek: i woudlnt be letting anyone fasten them in car seats..you need to check seats yourself, what if they dont clip them in properly...and you have an accident :panic::panic:

[green4lynn]

Do you have to register as an employer with HMRC? I'm a bit confused by all the different advice that seems to be on this thread!

My daughter is 17 and is registered as my assistant with Ofsted, and I pay her a small amount when she helps me. My 11 year old gets a treat if she helps!

Please tell me what I need to do be be legal!!!!

Lynn x

[rickysmiths]

No you can't. If your children work for your childminding business (and it is legal for them to do that work), payment to them for that work is an allowable expense.



Your children cooking tea for mindees may be a breach of health and safety and/or food hygeine regulations, your children fastening mindees into car seats may be a breach of your safeguarding duty, your children feeding mindees may be a breach of all three...

You don't need 'evidence' as such but you DO need to do a risk assessment for each task they may help you with, and if they have any direct involvement with mindees (including preparing or serving food, but not simply playing with them) you need to consider whether they can do that without being registered with Ofsted as assistants (which they can't be until they are 18).

You can actually register an assistant at 16years old and there are members on this Forum who have done exactly that quite legally! They can not be left alone with the children until they are over 18 and have done a First Aid course. Though I must say both of mine first did the First Aid before I would allow them to babysit at 16 and they needed it before the Scout Assoc. would let them be Young Leaders. My dd will be renewing hers this summer.

I really do think common sense has disappeared here. I have often served a meal to my mindees that one of my teenage children has prepared for the family the night before. As the responsible adult I have made sure over the years that both my children can cook and they do it very well. My daughter has not given herself food poisoning whilst at Uni either. Nor am I breaching any Hygiene or Safety Regulations.

They do not have to be registered assistants to help at meal times and nor do I risk assess each task either of them do any more than I am continually risk assessing all through the day as we go about our daily activities. I do not write this down.

Ofsted are fully aware because I told them in detail during my inspection in September of the way my children help (and they saw the many photos with them in with the mindees)and always have they were very impressed at the way my whole family is part of the HOME from HOME care I offer to my parents. My parents like it as well. Not once did they suggest that either of them should be registered as my assistant to help me in the way they do. I got Outstanding in all aspects of keeping the children safe.


In fact my 17 year old son is babysitting at this very moment for one of my families and has done a number of times. I have not Risk Assessed their house, he does not have a contract with them, he is not my registered assistant and I have not informed Ofsted.

If either of them help when getting children in the car and clip them in I always go round and check everything is as it should be.

I thank you for all the help and advise you offer on the Accounts side of things but I think it would be better if you did not comment on Registration issues when you clearly have no knowledge of them.

[rickysmiths]

Wow, I have read this with great interest, I have a 14 and 17 year old, neither have jobs, or earn anything apart from the 17 year old perhaps will babysit every couple of months.

They have never had pocket money but never gone without.

Is this right then? I can give them pocket money and call it expenses?
They both help enormously, printing, paperwork, tidying up, cooking our tea, feeding toddlers, helping with coats, shoes, fastening into car seats etc etc.

What a slave driver I am!!! I thought it was just part of living in our house.....

Will I really need no evidence to support me if i give them £10 a week each for helping?

All I can say is that my accountant recommended to me a few years ago that I should pay my two 'pocket money' for helping and that this was a genuine expense and that is how it is entered in my books, she suggested the amount that would be acceptable and that is what is done. I trust her completely and it is not in her interests to give me blatantly wrong advise. I checked with my LA and I was told for what they were doing in their own home they did not need a Work Permit. Though my daughter did need one when she went to work at Clarks shoe shop on a Sat for 4 hours.

[rickysmiths]

Do you have to register as an employer with HMRC? I'm a bit confused by all the different advice that seems to be on this thread!

My daughter is 17 and is registered as my assistant with Ofsted, and I pay her a small amount when she helps me. My 11 year old gets a treat if she helps!

Please tell me what I need to do be be legal!!!!

Lynn x

I would contact HMRC for advise for your particular situation.

[Playmate]

Well I must be a slave driver my son is registered as my assistant and has never received a penny from me, its called earning his keep :laughing: My daughter will register in June and she probably won't be paid either :laughing::laughing:

[rickysmiths]

They weren't 18 when you registered them were they?

[Playmate]

They weren't 18 when you registered them were they?

one of them is over 18 now though!

[rickysmiths]

one of them is over 18 now though!

Yes but wasn't when you first registered them if I remember and nor will your dd be in June.

[MrAnchovy]

You can actually register an assistant at 16years old.

My mistake, I meant to go back and check - thanks for pointing it out.

I'm sorry you have taken my post personally rickysmiths, I haven't intended to suggest that you are doing anything wrong. I was responding to a post that suggested that it was OK to pay a 14 year old pocket money and claim it as expenses, and I was trying to point out that it is a bit more complicated than that. It does have to be genuine employment and there are requirements under child labour, food hygiene, health and safety and childcare regulations to consider.

[MrAnchovy]

Do you have to register as an employer with HMRC?

Probably not, for more details see earlier in this thread (http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1065556&postcount=14).