Why do you do written risk assessnts?

[Penny1959]

There have been a few threads recently that have been about risk assessments.

There seems to be two main types of responses.
a) Those that do as few risk assessments as possibe (I am in this group)
b) those who do risk assessments for most aspects of their practice.

I would be really interested to know why people have written risk assessments

In particular -If working alone, how does writting down detaiked risk assessments keep chilren safe?

(I understand the need for risk assessment to be in writig if working with another person)


Penny :)

[EmmaReed84]

It helps you identify the risks in your home which you may not necessarily think about. Because you are in your home already and see this everyday mentally risk assessing it come natural.

It also helps to show HOW you keep children... My Ofsted inspector said that this can be done verbally upon inspection but she liked to see it all written down to show you know about the risk and what you are doing about it.

Ex. I have a trampoline I have an RA for it... My trampoline enclosure broke so I wrote up that it was broken, unsafe for children to use, the trampoline will be put out of use until a there is a suitable replacement.

Will your children have access to the toilet if you have one downstairs? How will you keep children safe in there? Will they have their own towels, paper toilets? Will there be "easy" soap? Will you clearly identify the hot tap to avoid burns? What about spillages if a child misses the toilet? Will you check the toilet for cleanliness... All these things you probably do WITHOUT thinking, but writting it down can sometimes prompt you to see other risk and put a suitable "plan" in place to keep children of ALL ages safe.

I am in the group who has an RA for EVERYTHING lol

[debh]

I am in the group that do written risk assesments because we have to,evidence for ofsted. I am constantly checking my house mentally for risks and making things safe, when out and about I do the same and often have to tell staff at groups that certain things are a risk but am not so good at writing it all down.

[onceinabluemoon]

Got told we had to have them on my ICP so did them and update yearly even though I now know we don't have to have them written. The trouble is that if we don't have them written then get an inspector that likes to see them written down we get graded down so i guess a lot of us cover all eventualities.

I don't risk assess everything. for example never have i risk assess the loo, i just clean it but I have risk assessed some activities ad was told by ofsted I *had* to have a written RA about my dog(s)

[singingcactus]

I like to have written RA's to show to my parents. I feel it is an easy way to show them that I have considered all the risks that my environment pose to their child, and that I have reduced risks where possible and have measures in place to protect kids where risk cannot be reduced.

When my son went to nursery I felt more confident knowing that the nursery had considered the risks and understood them.

[blue bear]

I have a terrible memory so like a written risk assessment as a reminder, especially for outings. It just jogs the memory and focuses your attention on things you might otherwise not daily think of as a risk because it's there everyday ifyswim

[sarah707]

I write them because it is a legal requirement!

Ofsted have clarified in their RA fact sheet that they must be written.

I find them little use for parents as they have yet to show an interest but my Ofsted inspector was impressed by them!

However for me they are great as an aid to my flagging memory especially outings ones.

They are also good because as I write them I review what I am doing, research and find new information and advice etc so are added evidence of my professional development :D

[Playmate]

Interesting :D

Penny I think you know which group I fall into :laughing:

I have the main ones written (that are a legal requirement) - that are never looked at apart from to update :panic: In my opinion a written risk assesment is only valid the minute it is written, bit like a CRB - not worth the paper it is written on :rolleyes:

I constantly risk assess in my head and use my common sence, it has worked for 19 years without any severe accidents :rolleyes: Mrs O has always been happy with my verbal explanations and I have 2 outstandings :D

[rosebud]

My understanding is that it is a legal requirement that all settings do risk assessments but that childminders do not have to have them written down. However it is difficult to evidence that you actually do them without writing them down, it is for this reason that I do write them. I have a folder of risk assessments covering everywhere that we visit regularly and my home, I also have one for the car and one for walking, I review them once a year. I don't write them down for places where which we are only visiting once but am of course risk assessing all the time.

Risk assessments are the only piece of paperwork that I have real issues with. Like others I think that writing my risk assessments down doesn't mean that the children are any safer than if I did a risk assessment but didn't write it down. However they enable me to demonstrate that I understand what risk assessment is and gives examples of how I keep children safe both for Ofsted, parents and my DO.

[Penny1959]

Thank you for your replies - and do keep on posting if you have a view on this.

Yes I have the legal requirement ones - but they do not keep the children safe - I certainly do not refer to them before I do the things mentioned - for example I have a very basic written check list for outings in a car and on foot (because it is a requirement) - but I do not look at them before I go out.

I use my common sense - and in my opinion risks will change all the time - and writing the risks down - even if you review them every week - will not cover every risk and so you will still need to visually risk access.

In my opinion It is far more important to record the risks that you come across and what you did about it. It is the action to remove or reduce the risk that keeps children safe.

Three different inspectors within a 2 year period (My pre reg inspector, my graded inspector and now the pilot inspector) have all been very happy with how I risk assess - and in fact the pilot inspector (who is a senior HMI) agreed that written risk assessments do not keep children safe - and said that Ofsted were moving away from needless pieces of paper and tick lists.

However I AM NOT saying that those who do written risk assessments are wrong - because if it works for them and they feel it helps keep children safe then it is right for them.

It does go to show that Ofsted are not looking for risk assessments to be done in a particular way (indeed apart from the ones actually in the EYFS they can not insist on a certain method) but they are looking for practitioners who can demonstrate that they keep the children safe.

I hope that the debate in this thread will demonstrate that there is not one right way - that you can do lots of written risk assessments in you want to - and on the other hand you can just have the legally required ones in writing and demonstrate in other ways how you keep children safe.

I also hope this thread will support those who are not too sure about risk assessments the benefits of the different ways of risk assessing - so that they can decide for themselves which way suits them.

One thing that is already clear is you can get a outstanding grade both with additional (to legal requirement) written risk assessments and without.

Penny :)

[rickysmiths]

Interesting :D

Penny I think you know which group I fall into :laughing:

I have the main ones written (that are a legal requirement) - that are never looked at apart from to update :panic: In my opinion a written risk assesment is only valid the minute it is written, bit like a CRB - not worth the paper it is written on :rolleyes:

I constantly risk assess in my head and use my common sence, it has worked for 19 years without any severe accidents :rolleyes: Mrs O has always been happy with my verbal explanations and I have 2 outstandings :D

I was about to write exactly the same!

I do it for Mrs O because, unlike the old social Services Inspectors she is apparently unable to see for herself the precautions I take and the fact my house is safe. But if I am able to write a fantastic RA she is happy and I got Outstanding in all areas of keeping safe in Sept :rolleyes:

The parents aren't interested at all because they can see I keep their children safe :thumbsup:

[mama2three]

I do them primarily for ofsted too. As we all know inspectors arent the most consistent breed - and whilst some will be able to see that my risk assessing is adequate regardless of the additional paperwork , others wont or cant. I can argue the case - but wont need to if I document what is in fact 'automatic' practice of visually assessing everything as we go along.

[Mouse]

I have to be honest, I've never seen the point of written risk assessments.

A form filled in and update once a year is pointless and could, in theory, be dangerous. What if you risk assessed a toddler group, then didn't bother continuously assessing it in your head? If you relied purely on your written RA you could miss any new hazzards as they come up and assume it was all safe simply because you'd done one off RA. I know that's unlikey as I don't think we can help but continuously risk assess, but it does show how pointless it is having it written down.

And if you don't instinctively spot that something is a risk, writing it down isn't going to make you any more aware of it. You either spot a risk or you don't.

I do them because Ofsted seem to have a need for all evidence to be in writing :rolleyes:

[JCrakers]

Do them cos I have to...dont see the point in them and hate them. :D

I went to a mindees birthday party at her house with two mindees on Friday and I thought, theres no way Im going round beforehand to check out the house so I just identified the risks as they occured. Ive known them for nearly 5yrs.

A yucca plant in the lounge that 1yr old was drawn to....moved him away from it.
Fireplace with out a guard...moved him away
Kitchen cupboards with no lock on......made sure he wasnt left alone
Kids were bouncing on sofa, I didnt allow my 2yr old mindee

Common sense when looking after children but I didnt write it all down.

[nikki thomson]

Interesting :D

Penny I think you know which group I fall into :laughing:

I have the main ones written (that are a legal requirement) - that are never looked at apart from to update :panic: In my opinion a written risk assesment is only valid the minute it is written, bit like a CRB - not worth the paper it is written on :rolleyes:

I constantly risk assess in my head and use my common sence, it has worked for 19 years without any severe accidents :rolleyes: Mrs O has always been happy with my verbal explanations and I have 2 outstandings :D
Well said, I'm the same, there are some people who have written risk assessments for everything, the worlds gone mad. X

[Pipsqueak]

There have been a few threads recently that have been about risk assessments.

There seems to be two main types of responses.
a) Those that do as few risk assessments as possibe (I am in this group)
b) those who do risk assessments for most aspects of their practice.

I would be really interested to know why people have written risk assessments

In particular -If working alone, how does writting down detaiked risk assessments keep chilren safe?

(I understand the need for risk assessment to be in writig if working with another person)


Penny :)

I do as few as possible, I do them to satisfy Ofsted that I am doing my job - I couldn't possible sit and explain it adequately upon inspection

Some of my RA's are done retrospectively - ie a visit to a farm we have not been to before for instance - or I have had different children

Much of my RA's are done in my head, there and then - like most sensible, sane, rational, capable childcare providers

[primula]

Minimum risk assessments here too! I find that i constantly risk assess because the children are constantly 'changing' developing new skills, new interests and taking their own risks! how can you possibly write that all down!

[Penny1959]

Got told we had to have them on my ICP so did them and update yearly even though I now know we don't have to have them written. The trouble is that if we don't have them written then get an inspector that likes to see them written down we get graded down so i guess a lot of us cover all eventualities.

I don't risk assess everything. for example never have i risk assess the loo, i just clean it but I have risk assessed some activities ad was told by ofsted I *had* to have a written RA about my dog(s)

I have 2 dogs and I have mentioned them on my daily checklist - that dog bowls will be in garage or side passage and that I will clean up dog mess before children go in garden.

Not been a problem for any of the inspectors

Penny :)

[Penny1959]

Do them cos I have to...dont see the point in them and hate them. :D

I went to a mindees birthday party at her house with two mindees on Friday and I thought, theres no way Im going round beforehand to check out the house so I just identified the risks as they occured. Ive known them for nearly 5yrs.

A yucca plant in the lounge that 1yr old was drawn to....moved him away from it.
Fireplace with out a guard...moved him away
Kitchen cupboards with no lock on......made sure he wasnt left alone
Kids were bouncing on sofa, I didnt allow my 2yr old mindee

Common sense when looking after children but I didnt write it all down.

As you say common sense - I tend to write the actions taken in my dairy - so that is then my evidence that I have risked assessed.

Penny :)

[snufflepuff]

I do them because ofsted say so!
I think it's a waste of time, I have not identified anything when writing my risk assessments that I did not identify by just looking around, thinking and using my common sense. The act of writing it down makes no difference.

[wendywu]

[
QUOTE=snufflepuff;1045110]I do them because ofsted say so!
I think it's a waste of time, I have not identified anything when writing my risk assessments that I did not identify by just looking around, thinking and using my common sense. The act of writing it down makes no difference.

[/QUOTE]

I agree but have loads because Ofsted says i have to. :D

[Penny1959]

[



I agree but have loads because Ofsted says i have to. :D[/QUOTE]

Wendywu - seeing as you only do them because Ofsted say you should - do you mind me asking what you mean by 'loads'?

I ask because I think people hear about Ofsted wanting to see this RA or that RA and so do them just to 'be safe' and not marked down at inspection.

I personally have:-
One annual one
five short generic ones -each just a reminder of the things I check in my head

which is plenty in my view.

Penny :)

[FussyElmo]

I do them because ofsted likes to see them.

Do as little as poss though 1 for the house and garden. The 1 for the walk to school and the regular places we visit and thats it.

Now if I am planning a trip to my local park I do not read the ra before I go because i like to think i am still capable of recognising any risks when i get there :thumbsup:

[TooEarlyForGin?]

I have questioned this several times.

I do them as we are required to do so by law. But....

As we generally work alone, as others have pointed out, a risk assessment is only good enough the moment you do them. I have a daily checklist, but after an hour of play it is pointless, I consistently do it throughout the day without needing to refer to my checklist. Also we write our own risk assessments, so who is to say they are good enough? I could understand it more if you have to write them for other members of staff to ensure you are all thinking the same way, but as we generally don't - it does seem pointless. And as someone else said, children are changing dramatically all the time, so to constantly re-write risk-assessments for every change in every child is mad. I have also considered the legal implications, for example, if you write on your car risk assessment you ensure you carry you mobile phone for emergencies, and then one day rush out forgetting it was on charge, could it make you legally liable? :rolleyes:

[teacake2]

I thought I had got the essential things covered by ones written down and others that I thought useful, but no not good enough for OFSTED, she wanted each individual toy assessing, I told her that each group of toys were assessed for their suitability for the age and development of the children in my care and of course that they weren't damaged etc, but she said that every single crayon had to be assessed, every single small world piece etc:angry::angry::angry:
Who is the crazy one? I said to her I am not doing that it is ridiculous, for a start it would take me about 6 months to do and think about all the paper it would use. Her reply was well I am not going to give you outstanding then.
Am I bothered not really, I know what I am doing is great and so do my parents.
Teacake2

[Playmate]

I thought I had got the essential things covered by ones written down and others that I thought useful, but no not good enough for OFSTED, she wanted each individual toy assessing, I told her that each group of toys were assessed for their suitability for the age and development of the children in my care and of course that they weren't damaged etc, but she said that every single crayon had to be assessed, every single small world piece etc:angry::angry::angry:
Who is the crazy one? I said to her I am not doing that it is ridiculous, for a start it would take me about 6 months to do and think about all the paper it would use. Her reply was well I am not going to give you outstanding then.
Am I bothered not really, I know what I am doing is great and so do my parents.
Teacake2

:eek: Good job she didn't do my inspection, should would have been shown the door and a complaint made agianst her :angry:

[Penny1959]

:eek: Good job she didn't do my inspection, should would have been shown the door and a complaint made agianst her :angry:

Good thing she didn't do mine as well. I would have made a complaint and demanded to have another inspection by an inspector who followed the very clear guidance that they are given for inspections (these guidelines are available online)

I brought up the matter of inspectors who ask for things that are not a requirement -when I took part in the pilot inspections last week - and the senior HMI said - we must complain - otherwise Ofsted will think that their inspectors are doing a good job (clearly they are not) - and that inspector if not challenged will go on to make similar judgements against other childminders.

I am now on a mission and I will help anyone who has a inspection report that makes judgements that are not based on EYFS - I say inspection report because verbal comments passed on (so second hand) can not be challenged - but written reports can.

Penny :)

[Playmate]

Good thing she didn't do mine as well. I would have made a complaint and demanded to have another inspection by an inspector who followed the very clear guidance that they are given for inspections (these guidelines are available online)

I brought up the matter of inspectors who ask for things that are not a requirement -when I took part in the pilot inspections last week - and the senior HMI said - we must complain - otherwise Ofsted will think that their inspectors are doing a good job (clearly they are not) - and that inspector if not challenged will go on to make similar judgements against other childminders.

I am now on a mission and I will help anyone who has a inspection report that makes judgements that are not based on EYFS - I say inspection report because verbal comments passed on (so second hand) can not be challenged - but written reports can.
Penny :)

:thumbsup::clapping:

[Bluebell]

Good thread Penny - really interesting to see all the replies - especially those who do not believe in written policies as I tend to agree BUT When I started I only did risk assessments because I was required to and wanted to demonstrate to Ofsted that I am considering these things.

Now I have been doing it a while I see it can be a useful tool to make sure I am not overlooking anything, I also use my daily checklist as a reminder for the little things that I am likely to overlook - like I have got all the car seats correctly fitted in the car the night before but that is no good if I have forgotten to fill up with petrol and I don't really want to go to the garage and fill up with a car full of kids.
It is also useful to demonstrate to parents that you have taken things into consideration and also so that they know what would happen if there were an incident.

I often do my risk assessment retrospectively too - because I do all the things on it automatically -like lock the door, close the safety gate, put the blind cord up and my sons asthma medicine out of reach - when I check the list then all is done already - but it is still nice to check!
I also have things like check the day bag for wipes and nappies or take mobile because sometimes I am thinking about the children and their safety and their immediate needs and not about me!
and of course everything still has to be assessed continuously also. I do not tick a list and then go oh well yes all the children are automatically safe for the rest of the day - my risk assessment also says 'use common sense throughout the day' because without that what good is having one?
I have to say I've been childminding less than a year so for me its getting me to think about things I may not have as much experience in as some. Also in less than a year I've already had to revise and update my policies 3 or 4 times (and print them all of again) because of the ongoing changes in legislation, health advice, Ofsted updates and so on - so its all very well having a written policy or R/A but no point if its wrong. I find this more infuriating and time consuming than doing them in the first place! I've had to change my admissions policy because of the new Ofsted update on emergency care permission - but I always have this anyway so not sure why I was asked to change it to show it. I have changed my illness policy to show that I am aware of the new childrens dosage for calpol - again because i was told i should and i have changed my safeguarding policy at least twice because of constant changes in the local contacts and phone numbers. If I didn't have it written down in a policy and i needed to phone someone it would not have been picked up that I had the wrong numbers to phone.

I would like to see a move away from having it all written down because keeping children safe is about your care of them not have well you write things down but at the same time if an inspector said to me how do you do this how do you keep them safe in this situation i would probably get flustered and not know how to answer if I have written it down then 1 i can show them and 2 its more likely to be logged in my head if you see what i mean?

Would love if there was more consistency to the way the Ofsted inspectors judge at the inspection - I am dreading my first full Ofsted as I have no idea what they may or may not be looking for!

[Penny1959]

You have brought up a few interesting points Bluelion

New childminders - yes I can see that a risk assessment would help new childminders remember to check things - but then again - a personal checklist would do the same (while becoming more familiar with procedures) and it would therefore not have to be renewed and another one printed.

I worry about those who have 20 or 30 risk assessments - how can they have time to check them all? - how do they even remember what they have?

I am hopeful that under the new EYFS that inspectors will not ask to see so many, that tutors / LA staff will not say that so may are needed and that people using forums like this one will not spread panic by say you must have this and you must have that. On one website (not this one) I found a skipping rope policy - totally not needed but shows how childminders can make things more complicated than they need to be.

The next statement is my understanding of the wording in the inspectors guidance for the revised EYFS - as used in the pilot inspections - I can not oput the actual wording but I can say how it relates to the pilot inspection that I had.

My understanding is that inspectors from Sept 12 will only be sampling documents - not checking every word - this was the case with my pilot inspection. Aso my understanding is that if childcare practice is effective a minor breaking of the requirements - will not effect the judgement.

Also my understanding from the revised EYFS document is that we will be required to have a written procedure to say how we risk assess (so again my understanding is - if we do this in our head or via a personal checklist then so long as we say this in our writyten procedure - we do not need to do any other written risk assessment) It does say that we need to consider how staff will know about risk assessment procedures - (and I have always thought that if have staff, RA's need to be in writting) it also mentions how parents will know - but up to us how we inform parents. (Personally the fact that their children are kept safe and in my case my dairy with any actions I have taken to remove risks is in the play area and open means they can see every day the measures I have taken.)

The same really for policies - if a phone number changes - change it in you phone number record (be on computer / in your phone / in a note book) rather than having to change policies and reprint.

As to safeguarding policy - I have now changed mine to say I will check with the LA and Ofsted and local safeguarding board websites as needed to ensure I have correct phone numbers and procedures - because like you I was fed up with keep changing numbers and reprinting - and also concerned that I would miss a change of information.

I hope this has provided some reassurance to you Bluelion (and to others) that hopefully from Sept 12 - things will be different and we will be able to use our common sense.

Penny :)

[mama2three]

Good thing she didn't do mine as well. I would have made a complaint and demanded to have another inspection by an inspector who followed the very clear guidance that they are given for inspections (these guidelines are available online)

I brought up the matter of inspectors who ask for things that are not a requirement -when I took part in the pilot inspections last week - and the senior HMI said - we must complain - otherwise Ofsted will think that their inspectors are doing a good job (clearly they are not) - and that inspector if not challenged will go on to make similar judgements against other childminders.

I am now on a mission and I will help anyone who has a inspection report that makes judgements that are not based on EYFS - I say inspection report because verbal comments passed on (so second hand) can not be challenged - but written reports can.

Penny :)

Penny , I agree - but it takes a good amount of experience , and confidence to boot , to see where an inspector is being unfair . Of course all inspections should judge against eyfs guidance , but minders - especially newer ones - often will not have the knowledge , understanding , experience , to see where they ( inspector) are moving away from the guidance into personal preferences. The complaints procedure in itself is not user friendly - indeed having only 24 hours to respond seems to be discouragement enough! It is certainly not enough time to seek guidance and put together a reasoned argument regarding your complaint.

[Penny1959]

Penny , I agree - but it takes a good amount of experience , and confidence to boot , to see where an inspector is being unfair . Of course all inspections should judge against eyfs guidance , but minders - especially newer ones - often will not have the knowledge , understanding , experience , to see where they ( inspector) are moving away from the guidance into personal preferences. The complaints procedure in itself is not user friendly - indeed having only 24 hours to respond seems to be discouragement enough! It is certainly not enough time to seek guidance and put together a reasoned argument regarding your complaint.

You are right Mama2three it does take experience and confidence to put in a complaint - which is why I am offering to support people.

Also you do get slighty longer than 24hours to lodge a complaint - this is the wording from Ofsteds website

Formal complaints
If it has not been possible to resolve concerns raised then individuals or providers may decide to lodge a formal complaint.

Normally, a complaint can be made at any stage during an inspection or up to 30 calendar days from the date of publication of any report, or the end of the inspection where there is no report.

Therefore I feel people would have time to seek support - if the want to.

Penny :)

[Bluebell]

You have brought up a few interesting points Bluelion

New childminders - yes I can see that a risk assessment would help new childminders remember to check things - but then again - a personal checklist would do the same (while becoming more familiar with procedures) and it would therefore not have to be renewed and another one printed.

I worry about those who have 20 or 30 risk assessments - how can they have time to check them all? - how do they even remember what they have?


Penny :)


20 or 30 risk assesments?! wow that is a lot! My risk assesments (mine are very generalised and mainly common sense - so daily check, outings, car journeys, walking - are just personal tick lists - so i can date the top, tick all the way down and sign at the bottom. Its a reminder for me but as I say I normally have already done everything on it anyway before I tick - I guess I use it as a reminder to myself if I have missed anything but also as a demonstration that I think about certain things everyday - like if I have a young child and I need to remove any toys that are particularly small. Sometimes I make additional comments like some brambles grew through the fence from next door and they were child's eye height so I cut them back. I didn't need to write it down to know it needed doing and I'm not writing it down for my benefit - but to demonstrate to an Ofsted inspector!

I will just say though I am due my very first Ofsted inspection so definitely want to be seen to be ticking all the boxes!!