"Thinking step/corner/time out" revise?

[Tinglesnark]

I was on a course last night and our use of the "thinking step/corner" was brought in to question as possibly the same thing as the "naughty step/corner" but with just another name.

Of course that is precisely what it is, so i was confused?

I use my thinking step as a last resort and the perpetrator sits on it for theu usual 1 minute per year of age but i mainly use distraction and in fact it isnt even for my mindees who happen to be very well behaved - i use it for ds1 :laughing:

BUT

The point is,

Should we omit the use of the thinking step/spot/corner/time out altogether and just stick with distraction?

I am interested to know your thoughts

x

[Pipsqueak]

No I am sorry, kids need to have a space to go and cool off and I think they need to learn the consequence of their action.

Schools still have 'time out' spaces or the parking bay/thinking spot - whatever.

I think its swinging too far the other way now of being scared to offend/upset or single out a child.

[Blaze]

The naughty step was frowned upon as it was seen as labelling a child & negative - hence thinking step/spot whatever - as this is self-reflective & positive...it's all about using positive behaviour management.:thumbsup:

[green puppy]

No I am sorry, kids need to have a space to go and cool off and I think they need to learn the consequence of their action.

Schools still have 'time out' spaces or the parking bay/thinking spot - whatever.

I think its swinging too far the other way now of being scared to offend/upset or single out a child.

Totally agree, I have a "thinking" spot too and it is effective as the children don't usually want to stop playing. They understand that they are there just to calm down and realise that the behaviour they've shown has upset others or is unacceptable.

[Tinglesnark]

Well this is my stance too, my ds NEEDS to sit out of view of others to calm down when he goes too far. Everyone in this house knows where "the step" is and what happens when your on it. They also know how far they have to push the boundaries before they get their warnings which lead to "time on the step" so, apart from ds1, trouble tends to peter out pretty rapidly just at the mention of it.

I suppose it is still a negative place to be and maybe that is why its use is being questioned?

[PixiePetal]

I mind a 2yr old who will NOT be distracted alone. I have to move him to a safe place (for himself and others) to let him calm down and then talk, sort it and offer solution to the problem. Then after a sorry he goes off to play again.

I have called the spot anything. Just 'come and sit by me for a while to calm down' :rolleyes: my mindees are all very young. These terrible twos won't last forever - I hope!

[Hebs]

we use "time out" which is time out of whatever activity/behaviour is causing problems and for them to chill, gather their thoughts and calm down before being asked why they were there (to make sure they understand) apologise, hugs and its forgotten about

with young children who cant have a full on discussion about behaviour a time out is a good clear way of setting boundries :thumbsup:

works well here, too well sometimes as a mindee will put herself in time out if she has been given a warning :laughing:

[littletreasures]

I have "the step". The children know where it is and what it's for. I very rarely have to use it though and it is usually one child who loves to antagonise his sister.

[VINASOL]

I feel that I have to have a Time Out spot in my house because my mindee has the view that 'there is nothing that I can do to her that is worse than nursery/her mother'. In that I mean:

Nursery: manager and staff SHOUT rather LOUD at the kids and mindee says that she is scared of them...is she scared of me? No.
Mother: smacks. HARD...can I smack? No (and wouldn't want to as I don't belive in it).

Time Out for me (althoguh mindee calls it naughty spot but I always correct her) works because she sits out of view for 4 minutes (sometiems longer when she gets up) and she misses out on activities. She can scream blue murder when she knows she is going on Time Out but I'm finding I'm having to do it less and less....mother says to her "wait until you get home"....so no Time Out there.

I cannot SHOUT at the children in my care...although some other CMs have told me why not....but I dont' know...do not feel comfortable with it

[Hebs]

I cannot SHOUT at the children in my care...although some other CMs have told me why not....but I dont' know...do not feel comfortable with it

:eek:

no i wouldn't shout at a mindee either, talk to them firmly yes but shout? no never :panic:

i'm shocked other childminder feel its ok to shout :eek:

[singingcactus]

I don't have or use a thinking step, naughty chair or any other place where i make children sit. I don't like the idea, it makes me very uncomfortable and uneasy. I have never done this and I won't. I would be very unhappy if my son had ever gone to a childminders and he had been made to sit in seclusion for the arbitrary time of one minute for every year of his life.
But this as ever is what works for me personally, or not as the case is.

[Winnie]

As i only have very small children i do not have a naughty step/thinking corner, years (& i mean Years ago) i followed a parents request to use the bottom step as a naughty step- i hated it, especially as dad would then tell the child off again when he picked up if we'd used the step during the day.... I do tell children 'no' and various forms of 'we don't do that' 'please do not do that' etc and of course i have a 'look' :D that usually stops unwanted behaviour. I can not see the point in making a child feel resentful/bored/unhappy - i do not feel it teaches children how to behave in an acceptable way. JMHO of course :)

[Katiekoo]

Mine are all little angels :littleangel:
When they do misbehave I use a count,
eg; 'can you come here please' ....'3, 2, 1' and if by one the behaviour (usually just wingeing or child hasn't done what was asked of them) then it's off to the thinking spot. I only use it with my dd and then very very rarely, BUT it has started to really really upset her - she cries proper tears and wails like she's hurt. This is more disruptive than the minor mis-behaviour, so I'm looking for an alternative to the thinking spot, any ideas? Often just the mention of it is enough to curb the behaviour - maybe that means it's working :laughing:

My two mindees are only just one and so with them I just say and sign 'no' then distract them. One of my little one year olds got put in 'time out' at Nursery - I think they might be a bit too little for it at 13 months.

[Louise317]

On my pre-reg visit yesterday, she said Ofsted don't like 'super nanny' for introducing the naughty step/time out process.

She did say they would prefer you to distract the child.

I use time out for my two children so they can reflex and there actions, time to cool down and then the other get over the incident.

Our usual process is:-
step one: ask them to stop,
step two: 5,4,3,2,1 (this is the warning and usually stop by 2,1)
step three: Time out to reflex actions
We don't often have to get to step three as its the last resort.

[VINASOL]

On my pre-reg visit yesterday, she said Ofsted don't like 'super nanny' for introducing the naughty step/time out process.

She did say they would prefer you to distract the child.

I use time out for my two children so they can reflex and there actions, time to cool down and then the other get over the incident.

Our usual process is:-
step one: ask them to stop,
step two: 5,4,3,2,1 (this is the warning and usually stop by 2,1)
step three: Time out to reflex actions
We don't often have to get to step three as its the last resort.


These steps (SuperNanny) are quite effective in my opinion and have no ill-effects on the child . I hate the words naughty step...much prefer time out....it DOES give them time out to reflect their actions if it is done appropriately. I'm glad that some CMs don't have to do this....for most of my kids I dont...but there are some children who do not have this at home and need this kind of discipline.

It's a shame all inspectors do not have the same view: my inspector saw first-hand what my mindee was like and I was honest about my routine...thsi included my own daughter; however this mindee is pretty much the only one who gets t/o.

From my very short-experience distraction does not always work on some ocassions for some children.

[welshcake]

i was looking after a 19 month old who was very disruptive threw toys, hit other kids with toys, even walked thru a jigsaw another child was putting together kicking it. in 2 days he broke £68 worth of toys. He would laugh and i found his behaviour out of control.

His mother didnt seem to put off by this and just said oooo its just him, he talked to the parent and decided time out was a good idea, sitting him out but in sight of others so he could see he was missing out on fun because of his behaviour. This worked a treat and i only had to say "..... you will have to have time out if you continue to throw" etc he totally knew and would refrain from throwing/hitting and being disruptive.

However i had to give this family notice because i was no longer going to be able to accomodate her hours she needed the minute i did they turned nasty and i had the mother in law screaming down the phone at me saying that since her grandson had been with me he was coming home withdrawn because i made him sit on the naughty step all day. :eek: and where in the child minding training was a taught to sit a one year old little baby out of joining in excluding him. and then she said " I am a foster carer and i am horrified u have done this to my poor baby"

Now this annoyed me as it was never called that or was it a step he just had to sit for time out to prevent any injury to any other child etc with i might add support from his mother who even wrote on a letter how pleased she was about of settled her son had become and had stopped throwing at home.

After that i did question myself and wether i had been right to sit him out but to me he was nearly 2 and had no respect for toys or others and if i am honest i would sit him out again, i just dont see where that was wrong.

I did phone ofsted for advice and they said that they see so many childminders get worried or complaining because of a potential complaint and it is 9 times out of 10 always because a childminder has given notice and then the family turns on them. :mad:

[welshcake]

i did also try distraction before time out but nothing worked at all.

And the little one in question loved coming never cried when dropped off, waved goodbye when he went etc a really happy little boy not at all withdrawn x

[Mouse]

I have never used a naughty step/time out step in my 21 years as a mum and my 15 years as a childminder. I've never seen the need...and believe me, the children (my own & mindees) have not all been little angels :littleangel:

I've never liked the idea of having a specific spot for them to go to - no matter what you call it, it's still the same thing. I've also never understood the idea of 1 minute for each year of their age? What is the thinking behind that?
I do give children time out, but that's wherever we happen to be. I get them to come & sit with me, but I don't send them off anywhere.

[welshcake]

no mine isnt a particular spot it is just time out which ever room we may be in, and only til he calmed down and then i spoke to him calm and talked to him.

[Pipsqueak]

i don't have a particular spot - its whereever we are and that includes if we are out and about.
Even i remove myself to go and have a think sometimes...

[Hebs]

i don't have a particular spot - its whereever we are and that includes if we are out and about.
Even i remove myself to go and have a think sometimes...

me too, i have put children in time out even in a supermarket :thumbsup:

[Penny1959]

I also don't have a particular spot - wherever we are we can sop to think about things - no need even to sit down - although sometimes I do ask child / group of children to sit down. I always stay with the child /ren to help them reflect by talking / asking questions as just thinking means they can think anything - including 'It is not fair - I had it first - she hit me first' and so on. Therefore questions such as 'Do you think it was a nice thing to do' ' If x took that toy from you, what should you have done?' 'What could you do now?' help the child work out for themselves how to behave and how to deal with / resolve situations.

Having said that - children with some types of additional needs do need a specific spot to be able to feel safe and to be able to remove themselves from situations that they find difficult and so they can calm down. My grandson is one of these children - at home he can go to his bedroom, at mine he can go in the conservortory and shut the door - being glass I can see him or sit on the sofa - at school he has a special place with comfy cushion, his stress toy (a stretchy thing) and his emotions chart so he can move the gauge to show how he is feeling. When he was younger he had to have an adult with him to support the calming down process and would be told to go to his calm place - now at 7 he will take himself and often calm himself down (which is good because if goes to far and he 'loses it - we are talking restraining for his own safety and that of others)


Penny :)

[julie w]

I have found these threads interesting because I really struggle with discipline. I have a couple of children who really play me up. When I tell their parents, one laughs and says that's typical of an 8 year old boy, the other parents are extremely strict and completely stop tv, treats, games etc for a month. So I do try and not tell parents unless really neccessary. I do feel it's getting to the stage where people are scared of disciplinig children for fear of doing or saying something un pc or upsetting the child. My friend, a school teacher says that over the years she has seen how children's respect for teachers, parents and authority has lessened to the stage some know they can do and say things some of us would never have even dreamed of when we were younger. Of course its quite a wide generalisation, but I wonder where the answer lies. I do not like the thought of smacking or humiliation and would never want the return of these type of punishments, but I wonder if we have maybe have gone too far the other way. I have no answers, but I so wish I did. hmmm. deep thinking here!:ohdear:

[Hebs]

children have no respect unless you instill that in them

i respect them as long as they respect me, i will and do use a consequense for unwanted behaviour, for little ones thats time out, for older ones its whatever will get the message across (no games, etc)

it does work

[SamBaker]

I feel that I have to have a Time Out spot in my house because my mindee has the view that 'there is nothing that I can do to her that is worse than nursery/her mother'. In that I mean:

Nursery: manager and staff SHOUT rather LOUD at the kids and mindee says that she is scared of them...is she scared of me? No.
Mother: smacks. HARD...can I smack? No (and wouldn't want to as I don't belive in it).

Time Out for me (althoguh mindee calls it naughty spot but I always correct her) works because she sits out of view for 4 minutes (sometiems longer when she gets up) and she misses out on activities. She can scream blue murder when she knows she is going on Time Out but I'm finding I'm having to do it less and less....mother says to her "wait until you get home"....so no Time Out there.

I cannot SHOUT at the children in my care...although some other CMs have told me why not....but I dont' know...do not feel comfortable with it

I agree, I have a little boy who does get angry, you can see him starting to boil, fists become clenched and he will hit out, throw things, scream and really just loose it! I have had him two weeks, when I can see this starting to happen or he has hit/pinch etc, we sit on the step to chill out and then talk about why we don't do it. I will defently say it works as he is hardly on it at all now, just by reminding him not get cross, I think using the step has made him realise what calming down is. There is no point in using counting with him because that winds him up as does shouting, he just goes out of control. I don't know how the parents tell him off but by the way he was when he first came to me, I can imagine.
He's actually turning out to be a lovely little boy shame I only have him for 2 more weeks, I just hope the next childminder carries on with boundries etc (i'm sure she will) because I'm sure that's what has helped him.
I got my first big hug yesterday from him and I'm chuffed to bits (much better than a plastic ball to the head lol!)
Sorry I have rambled havn't I lol! Just a bit happy about this one.

[Helen79]

I don't use time outs now. I used to when dd was small but they never worked for her and usually would end up in a screaming hissy fit.

There's an interesting article here (http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/peter_haiman.html) explaining why time outs can have ill effects on some children.
When dd was younger and was naughty I would put her in time out. She was desperate for attention after ds was born and was mis-behaving for the attention. By using time out I was denying her the attention she was craving instead of addressing the behaviour and it's causes and dealing with the problems. We now have attachment issues which will take years of work to put right (lots of reasons not just caused by time outs but they didn't help).
Having said that I do think time outs have a place for a child who is throwing, lashing out etc and needs time to calm down but don't use them as a punishment.

[Hebs]

if used properly then i believe (and know from expierence) that time outs do work,

once they've done their "time" the incident is forgotten and we go back to what we were doing, the screaming stops fairly quickly as we witnessed with one mindee recently who would scream the house down as soon as we put him on time out, but by the 3rd time out he has learnt he has to do his time out then we move on x

and sorry Helen but the time out described in that link is not how we do a time out, a child is not placed in a room alone, they are within sight and sund at all times x

[Helen79]

and sorry Helen but the time out described in that link is not how we do a time out, a child is not placed in a room alone, they are within sight and sund at all times

No it isn't how cm do time outs but the principles are the same. Obviously it really depends on the behaviour, the child and what the desired outcome of the time out is. Like I said I do agree with time outs being used for certain behaviours but general misbehaviour I feel there's better ways for me to deal the situation.
Time outs never worked for dd, she has problems understanding her behaviour, has never said sorry without being prompted as she doesn't understand. She never understood why she was in a time out and she can't link her behaviour with the consequences. Time out just caused resentment and anger towards me. I've since done more research and found other techniques that work better for us which I use with my own children and mindees.
This is just my experience of time out with dd though. Obv other people have more positive experiences of using time out.

[buildingblocks]

I use Time out as a very last resort but this means to me that the child is removed from the 'play' to sit with me and definitely not removed from the room. I do not use a naughty step/chair or anything like that.

The only time I haven't used Time out like this has been twice once the child himself left he room and went and sat in my dining room. his own choice and I got a signed permission from mum for this to cover myself with Ofsted who weren't happy until I told them it was child's own choice then they were okay with that.

The other child we worked out that she was using unwanted behaviour to get my attention and to sit with me so she was asked to sit on the floor closer to me but not next to me if that makes sense. (Mum uses the bottom step at home and couldn't understand why I wouldn't and she works in a school). But when told to go play she would sit there for 2 hours and not rejoin the children. So what happened with her was we had to remove her from the room and then she would soon return but I wasn't particularly happy using this but there were other reasons as well connected to another child in the setting as well.

[Hebs]

No it isn't how cm do time outs but the principles are the same. Obviously it really depends on the behaviour, the child and what the desired outcome of the time out is. Like I said I do agree with time outs being used for certain behaviours but general misbehaviour I feel there's better ways for me to deal the situation.
Time outs never worked for dd, she has problems understanding her behaviour, has never said sorry without being prompted as she doesn't understand. She never understood why she was in a time out and she can't link her behaviour with the consequences. Time out just caused resentment and anger towards me. I've since done more research and found other techniques that work better for us which I use with my own children and mindees.This is just my experience of time out with dd though. Obv other people have more positive experiences of using time out.

would you share? i'm geniunly interested in other techniques x

[buildingblocks]

I agree with Hebs I would love to have other techniques as i personally feel have failed if I have to resort to Time Out.

[Helen79]

I've just finished reading How to talk so your children will listen and listen so kids will talk which has helped me to change how I deal with bad behaviour.
I don't look to punish anymore as with dd is just builds resentment and doesn't actually help her understand and change her behaviour. Time out isn't a natural consequence for any behaviour and for dd doesn't teach her anything.

The book explains how a child feels about time out, it gives the scenario of a child being put in time out for hitting his sister. is he thinking:
'Now I've learned my lesson, I must never hit my sister again, no matter what she does' or is he feeling 'No fair! Mom doesn't care about me, she only cares about my stupid sister. I'll fix her when mom's not looking' or is he concluding 'I'm so bad, I deserve to be sitting here all by myself'
Sending Billy to time out might stop the behaviour for the moment but doesn't address the underlying problem. What Billy needs is not time out but private time with a caring adult who will help him deal with his feelings and figure out better ways to handle them.
It then goes on to give Billy alternatives to hitting his sister and managing his anger.

I don't really know what I do instead of time out, I try to think that children misbehave for a reason so try to think why they're behaving that way and we just talk about it and try to validate their feelings. Obviously with younger children it's more difficult but just removing the offending toy, removing them from the situation and finding another activity, or finding out why they're misbehaving, they're too tired, hungry, need some space, missing mum and need a cuddle.
ds pushed my mindee last week, he'd had enough of being followed around by mindee and needed to play by himself, I told him it's not kind to push and x was sad, he said sorry and he came into the kitchen to help me make snack so he got my positive attention and some space to himself and then he was happy to go back and play with mindee.

[Tinglesnark]

Id love some other techniques too! do share! :thumbsup:

[Hebs]

i use time out and then have a chat with the child so i know that they know why they are there, but they do get 3 warnings before being placed in time out so they do have the chance to change the behaviour and 99% of the time the warning is enough.

my son's headmistress used to count down from 5 in a loud voice and used her fingers to count down too, by the time she got to 2 she used her fingers only and expected the children to be sat quietly if not they'd recieve a consequence,

i guess its about using what you feel is right for the children involved, and once a child starts my setting and is used to the different rules i find i dont need to use time out x

[Tinglesnark]

i use time out and then have a chat with the child so i know that they know why they are there, but they do get 3 warnings before being placed in time out so they do have the chance to change the behaviour and 99% of the time the warning is enough.

my son's headmistress used to count down from 5 in a loud voice and used her fingers to count down too, by the time she got to 2 she used her fingers only and expected the children to be sat quietly if not they'd recieve a consequence,

i guess its about using what you feel is right for the children involved, and once a child starts my setting and is used to the different rules i find i dont need to use time out x

I also dont need to use timeout on any mindees and also manage quite well to calm down ds1 without it too but it IS something that a lot of us use as our last resort. I always have the courage of my convictions and always use common sense. I am also always really interested to see how others keep order in the ranks :thumbsup: I find it fascinating :thumbsup:

[Hebs]

I also dont need to use timeout on any mindees and also manage quite well to calm down ds1 without it too but it IS something that a lot of us use as our last resort. I always have the courage of my convictions and always use common sense. I am also always really interested to see how others keep order in the ranks :thumbsup: I find it fascinating :thumbsup:

i just have "the look" that stops them dead in their tracks :laughing:

[Trpta108]

I also don't have a particular spot - wherever we are we can sop to think about things - no need even to sit down - although sometimes I do ask child / group of children to sit down. I always stay with the child /ren to help them reflect by talking / asking questions as just thinking means they can think anything - including 'It is not fair - I had it first - she hit me first' and so on. Therefore questions such as 'Do you think it was a nice thing to do' ' If x took that toy from you, what should you have done?' 'What could you do now?' help the child work out for themselves how to behave and how to deal with / resolve situations.




Penny :)

My thinking also. Listening to the children, there is a reason for their behavior, usually that they don't feel listened to. And supporting them to find a better way to deal with their emotion/problem. Ideally they need to think of a solution themselves. I usually first remind them that we do not do that (throwing, hitting etc.) and then ask questions like why did you do it, what consequence did it have/ could it have, what could he/she have done instead, how can he/she make it better?
With children, who do not yet talk, I would say the answers instead as simple as possible. For children who are too upset to talk I sit them down with me. Not in an angry way but in a 'I am here for you'' way. Ofcourse if another child has been hurt he/she comes first.
This is my ideal although with my own children thing don't always go like that. I am nowhere near perfect.
My experience is though, that if I listen and respect they will too, not the other way around.

[Blaze]

I agree about listening etc, but I also think that different diciplines work for each child as individuals & there are certain children / times when time out/thinking spot is the most appropriate for the child/behaviour. Just my HO!