If you have a cleaner...

[sarah707]

According to a conversation I have just had today with Ofsted...

If your cleaner comes during minding hours (even if you usually go out while the cleaner is in your house - because some weeks you might not) then they are classed as a REGULAR VISITOR.

Regular visitors must have a CRB check...

- You need to download and print an EY2 form from the Ofsted website and send it to Ofsted;

- Ofsted then send out a CRB form;

- You can fill in the back with the cleaner's passport details etc and send it off.

Ofsted pay for the CRB.

Your cleaner can continue working for you while the application is in progress however you should call Ofsted and tell them that you are applying for a CRB for the cleaner so they can make a note in your file.

This will head off any complaints they might receive about the cleaner being in your house.

In the meantime...

- You need to risk assess how you keep the children safe from a visitor who does not have a CRB check in place;

- You need to make sure the cleaner does not come into unsupervised contact with the children;

- You need to consider the impact of a regular visitor on your safeguarding / child protection policy and procedure.

Note - I totally forgot to ask whether the cleaner should sign the visitors book (it's been a long day :o ) but I think, for good practice anyone who comes during working hours should sign in and out as a matter of course - if you currently have a visitors book (I don't want to start that argument again here :laughing:).

Hth :D

[Jacko81]

Thankyou for that information sarah.

Ill certainly get that done.

xxx

[Twinkles]

Thanks Sarah. I did suspect this might be the case and it's been niggling at me for a while.

[Mookins]

thnks for this hun...my cleaner starts in a few weeks time :clapping: will print the form off now

xxx

[WibbleWobble]

what happens when you go through a company who send different cleaners each week....and sometimes will send 3 at a time (cuts time down by a third)?

mandy x

[sarah707]

what happens when you go through a company who send different cleaners each week....and sometimes will send 3 at a time (cuts time down by a third)?

mandy x

:huh:

0300 123 1231 :D

[WibbleWobble]

:huh:

0300 123 1231 :D


ha ha ha ha :laughing:

mandy xx

[Ripeberry]

What if it's on a day when you are not minding?:D

[onceinabluemoon]

According to a conversation I have just had today with Ofsted...

If your cleaner comes during minding hours (even if you usually go out while the cleaner is in your house - because some weeks you might not) then they are classed as a REGULAR VISITOR.

Regular visitors must have a CRB check...

- You need to download and print an EY2 form from the Ofsted website and send it to Ofsted;

- Ofsted then send out a CRB form;

- You can fill in the back with the cleaner's passport details etc and send it off.

Ofsted pay for the CRB.

Your cleaner can continue working for you while the application is in progress however you should call Ofsted and tell them that you are applying for a CRB for the cleaner so they can make a note in your file.

This will head off any complaints they might receive about the cleaner being in your house.

In the meantime...

- You need to risk assess how you keep the children safe from a visitor who does not have a CRB check in place;

- You need to make sure the cleaner does not come into unsupervised contact with the children;

- You need to consider the impact of a regular visitor on your safeguarding / child protection policy and procedure.

Note - I totally forgot to ask whether the cleaner should sign the visitors book (it's been a long day :o ) but I think, for good practice anyone who comes during working hours should sign in and out as a matter of course - if you currently have a visitors book (I don't want to start that argument again here :laughing:).

Hth :D

I said this weeks ago!!, Well not quite all of it but the bit about cleaners needing CRB checks. Ofsted didnt tell me they paid for them for example...

http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=79136&highlight=cleaner

Most people thought I'd been advised wrongly. I never did get my cleaner thank goodness!

[sarah707]

I said this weeks ago!!, Well not quite all of it but the bit about cleaners needing CRB checks. Ofsted didnt tell me they paid for them for example...

http://www.childmindinghelp.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=79136&highlight=cleaner

Most people thought I'd been advised wrongly. I never did get my cleaner thank goodness!

Your original post was what set alarm bells ringing in my brain... :thumbsup: I couldn't remember where the post was sorry! :o

Up until now mine has never come on days when I am working but from next week that will change as I've just taken on a new child.

I thought I'd best check with Ofsted so I called with a list of questions.

Thank you :D

[sarah707]

What if it's on a day when you are not minding?:D

Apparently if they come when you are not working then it's fine...

But if they are a 'regular visitor' when you are working then you need to follow the process above :D

[sarah707]

More research has thrown up the following...

As an employer you need to make sure you have a COSHH risk assessment for all cleaning products used by the cleaner... this is a requirement of COSHH (1999).

As an employer you are also responsible for recording accidents or incidents or first aid administered (like you do for the children).

You must also report serious accidents or work based illnesses under the regulations of RIDDOR (1995).

You should consider risk assessing for 2 different things...

1. Risks to the childminded children for example the risk of the cleaner being in unsupervised contact with the child / the risk of children making allegations / buckets of water left lying around / stair gates or doors left open and children escaping etc;

And because you are an employer...

2. the risks to the cleaner in cleaning your house such as the vacuum being faulty / eczema or dermatitis caused by cleaning products / hazardous products or cross contamination from cleaning toilets and emptying bins / finding truly awful things under teenager's beds :cool: etc.

Basically risk assess anything and everything to show that you aim to keep the cleaner safe on your premises.

Crikey this employing a cleaner lark is a steep learning curve :eek: :D

[Donkey]

what if they use their own products :o

rather glad I now don't earn enough to warrant needing one!!

[linda2girls]

My cleaner is already CRB checked as she works for the local pre-school - I'm guessing that I don't have to get her checked again.

Linda.

[sarah707]

what if they use their own products :o

rather glad I now don't earn enough to warrant needing one!!

Then I THINK you would probably want to COSHH them for use around children - inhalation, eczema, dermatitis, asthma etc... anyway.

Plus consider environmentally friendliness... and what would happen if a child drank from the bottle etc.

Hth :D

[sarah707]

My cleaner is already CRB checked as she works for the local pre-school - I'm guessing that I don't have to get her checked again.

Linda.

You should ring Ofsted and check just to make sure!

They might want another if it's old or for their records as you are a different type of provision.

It's always best to check :D

[ChocolateChip]

My cleaner is self employed! :D

But I did do her crb check, and I have made up a 'staff attendance' sheet which she signs in and out on, rather than my visitors book.

Parsleypetal, if you are using an agency shouldn't the company crb them?

[flowerpots]

:huh:

0300 123 1231 :D

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

[Adiamond]

Sooooo glad I laid my cleaner off (not enough pennies atm :( )

Pretty sure I won't be bringing her back again now!!!! x

[nokidshere]

More research has thrown up the following...

As an employer you need to make sure you have a COSHH risk assessment for all cleaning products used by the cleaner... this is a requirement of COSHH (1999).

As an employer you are also responsible for recording accidents or incidents or first aid administered (like you do for the children).

You must also report serious accidents or work based illnesses under the regulations of RIDDOR (1995).

You should consider risk assessing for 2 different things...

1. Risks to the childminded children for example the risk of the cleaner being in unsupervised contact with the child / the risk of children making allegations / buckets of water left lying around / stair gates or doors left open and children escaping etc;

And because you are an employer...

2. the risks to the cleaner in cleaning your house such as the vacuum being faulty / eczema or dermatitis caused by cleaning products / hazardous products or cross contamination from cleaning toilets and emptying bins / finding truly awful things under teenager's beds :cool: etc.

Basically risk assess anything and everything to show that you aim to keep the cleaner safe on your premises.

Crikey this employing a cleaner lark is a steep learning curve :eek: :D


The H&S at work act 1974 and secondary legislations such as the coshh regulations 2004 only apply where there is a contract of employment between and employer and employee. This is a domestic contract where the cleaner is self employed and would need to do her own coshh assessments although they do not need to be in writing.

The only legal duty of care between a domestic in this situation would be a common law duty of care which applies to anyone in your home.

Obviously if you have a contract of employment with your cleaner then thats different.

[nokidshere]

According to a conversation I have just had today with Ofsted...

If your cleaner comes during minding hours (even if you usually go out while the cleaner is in your house - because some weeks you might not) then they are classed as a REGULAR VISITOR.

Regular visitors must have a CRB check...

- You need to download and print an EY2 form from the Ofsted website and send it to Ofsted;

- Ofsted then send out a CRB form;

- You can fill in the back with the cleaner's passport details etc and send it off.

Ofsted pay for the CRB.

Your cleaner can continue working for you while the application is in progress however you should call Ofsted and tell them that you are applying for a CRB for the cleaner so they can make a note in your file.

This will head off any complaints they might receive about the cleaner being in your house.

In the meantime...

- You need to risk assess how you keep the children safe from a visitor who does not have a CRB check in place;

- You need to make sure the cleaner does not come into unsupervised contact with the children;

- You need to consider the impact of a regular visitor on your safeguarding / child protection policy and procedure.

Note - I totally forgot to ask whether the cleaner should sign the visitors book (it's been a long day :o ) but I think, for good practice anyone who comes during working hours should sign in and out as a matter of course - if you currently have a visitors book (I don't want to start that argument again here :laughing:).

Hth :D

If we are not leaving the children alone with the cleaner then why would she need a crb check?

[sarah707]

If we are not leaving the children alone with the cleaner then why would she need a crb check?

Because I rang Ofsted and asked them and they said, as a regular visitor to my house, she needs one.

I am not the first person to be given this information :D

[miffy]

Note to self - do not bother to get a cleaner just put up with the mess! :rolleyes:

Miffy xx

[onceinabluemoon]

Note to self - do not bother to get a cleaner just put up with the mess! :rolleyes:

Miffy xx

LMAO this is what I do!

Actually I thought I'd spend the money I would have paid a cleaner and bought myself a dishwasher and a Dyson (and chucked out/recycled tons of stuff) to make my cleaning easier! Job well done as the place does look better if not spotless ;)

[Pauline]

- You need to download and print an EY2 form from the Ofsted website and send it to Ofsted;

To save you searching the Ofsted site, there is a copy to download in the Free Resources: http://childmindinghelp.co.uk/freeresources/Free%20downloads/ey2form.html

:)

[jumpinjen]

I was thinking about getting one to do all the jobs I hate like cleaning skirting boards, washing windows, washing down the walls, mopping floors, hoovering round the edges of carpets on your hands and knees etc etc.... think I will leave it til I have the energy.... thanks Sarah!

jen x

[Helcatt]

Now this is where I get really cross.

I phoned up Ofsted on the back of this post asking if that also means that a friend who comes round on a regular playdate (but stays with her kids so it doesn't effect my numbers) would also need to be CRB checked as she would also count as a regular visitor

And guess?

I got a different answer! I was told that I get them to sign in, I safeguard the children appropriately by not leaving them alone with the children and we are out for a large amount of time anyway, so no, my cleaner does not need to have a CRB in place!

He said it would be for cases like my daughter having her boyfriend over to stay every thursday and friday (hopefully not for another 20 years at least :laughing: )

So on the basis of the conversation I had (I noted down in my register the time I called - though I didn't get his name, thought of that after) I WILL NOT be getting my cleaner CRB checked and if something comes back to bite me, I will refer back to "said conversation"

I get so cross that you can not get a straight answer from them - always different people, different answer. HE said you needed to use COMMON SENSE

HX

[FussyElmo]

Now this is where I get really cross.

I phoned up Ofsted on the back of this post asking if that also means that a friend who comes round on a regular playdate (but stays with her kids so it doesn't effect my numbers) would also need to be CRB checked as she would also count as a regular visitor

And guess?

I got a different answer! I was told that I get them to sign in, I safeguard the children appropriately by not leaving them alone with the children and we are out for a large amount of time anyway, so no, my cleaner does not need to have a CRB in place!

He said it would be for cases like my daughter having her boyfriend over to stay every thursday and friday (hopefully not for another 20 years at least :laughing: )

So on the basis of the conversation I had (I noted down in my register the time I called - though I didn't get his name, thought of that after) I WILL NOT be getting my cleaner CRB checked and if something comes back to bite me, I will refer back to "said conversation"

I get so cross that you can not get a straight answer from them - always different people, different answer. HE said you needed to use COMMON SENSE

HX


I supppose the difference is that a friend is being invited in and a cleaner is being paid and will be there at the stated time.

I guess at preschools etc the cleaners are crb'ed.

Playing devils advocatt if a cleaner was to come into your house for a year on a regular basis there is a possibilty that you would become so used to it that you may leave the child unattended with them.

At least ofsted are willing to pay for the crb checks :)

[green puppy]

I got told on my first aid course last week that we should have coshh sheets for products we use in our homes. He said once we are accepting money for a service we are providing, our home becomes a business and we must comply with the H & S act, coshh etc.....

[sarah707]

I got told on my first aid course last week that we should have coshh sheets for products we use in our homes. He said once we are accepting money for a service we are providing, our home becomes a business and we must comply with the H & S act, coshh etc.....

We have had a long discussion about this before and yes some first aid trainers and Environmental Health inspectors do want to see us having a COSHH file.

However as it's not in the Eyfs as a requirement many childminders argue against it.

If you have an assistant you are responsible for anything they touch and any damage they do to themselves with products while on your premises so a COSHH is important then too...

Similarly if you employ a cleaner you have a duty of care to ensure a safe working environment - the hoover doesn't blow up in their face, they have gloves to wear, if the cleaning fluid is caustic they understand the risks, cleaners are not mixed together etc.

Hth :D

[nokidshere]

I got told on my first aid course last week that we should have coshh sheets for products we use in our homes. He said once we are accepting money for a service we are providing, our home becomes a business and we must comply with the H & S act, coshh etc.....

Once again.....

You only have to provide coshh sheets if you employ staff. There is no legal requirement under H&S at work act for you to supply any coshh sheets for use in your own home by yourself. Or by anyone else if they are self employed.

"he" is talking rubbish and should stick to first aid!

And before anyone jumps on me - I am not saying those of you who want to do them shouldn;t, if you do then thats fine! Its the being told that you HAVE to that insences me!

[green puppy]

We have had a long discussion about this before and yes some first aid trainers and Environmental Health inspectors do want to see us having a COSHH file.

However as it's not in the Eyfs as a requirement many childminders argue against it.

If you have an assistant you are responsible for anything they touch and any damage they do to themselves with products while on your premises so a COSHH is important then too...

Similarly if you employ a cleaner you have a duty of care to ensure a safe working environment - the hoover doesn't blow up in their face, they have gloves to wear, if the cleaning fluid is caustic they understand the risks, cleaners are not mixed together etc.

Hth :D

Had somehow missed that thread!

[green puppy]

Once again.....

You only have to provide coshh sheets if you employ staff. There is no legal requirement under H&S at work act for you to supply any coshh sheets for use in your own home by yourself. Or by anyone else if they are self employed.

"he" is talking rubbish and should stick to first aid!

"He" is also a health and safety officer who inspects childcare and education settings. Only relating what I was told, as mentioned above I had somehow missed the other thread.

[Flisspaps]

I get so cross that you can not get a straight answer from them - always different people, different answer. HE said you needed to use COMMON SENSE

HX

OFSTED:

Offer Fresh Story To Each Different caller!

[Helcatt]

I supppose the difference is that a friend is being invited in and a cleaner is being paid and will be there at the stated time.


Point being, neither needed to be checked! According to this guy!

[Helcatt]

OFSTED:

Offer Fresh Story To Each Different caller!

Sounds about right:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

[Heaven Scent]

I take it then that if the cleaner & assistant are self-employed we do not have to do it ?????

[sarah707]

I take it then that if the cleaner & assistant are self-employed we do not have to do it ?????

Sorry HS I'm not sure what you mean! :D

[buildingblocks]

:confused:

Not that it takes much

[catlyn]

Update to this thread...I rang Ofsted today and was told that my cleaner ( 2 hours a week) doesnt need a check as she is an occasional visitor to the home....as long as she is never left alone with the children they said its fine....got the mans name I spoke to and have recorded it in my diary so if Ofsted query it I can show them I asked!!