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phoenix2010
10-05-2011, 10:14 AM
Has anyone had any experience of this

looking after a 10 year old , 2 afternoons a week

on a part time timetable at school due to behaviour , but mum says she has no problems at home

obviously every child is unique and Im yet to meet him, but would like some insight into the condition if anyone has any , either as a parent or a childminder

Thankyou

Blaze
10-05-2011, 10:40 AM
Sorry - I will come back when I have something sensible to say!:D :rolleyes: :blush:

Blaze
10-05-2011, 10:42 AM
Has anyone had any experience of this

looking after a 10 year old , 2 afternoons a week

on a part time timetable at school due to behaviour , but mum says she has no problems at home

obviously every child is unique and Im yet to meet him, but would like some insight into the condition if anyone has any , either as a parent or a childminder

Thankyou

This may be helpful:

http://www.kidsbehaviour.co.uk/OppositionalDefiantDisorderODD.html
...the comments at the bottom make interesting reading too:thumbsup:

phoenix2010
10-05-2011, 11:34 AM
Thankyou ,ive looked at a few websites to get an idea about it , would love any first hand accounts of day to day issues and techniques people have found useful, just to give me a starting point for the first day :)

phoenix2010
10-05-2011, 11:35 AM
Ah I see now , parents comments at the bottom , thankyou Blaze

Blaze
10-05-2011, 11:36 AM
No problem!:)

moogster1a
10-05-2011, 11:37 AM
FGS. Yes, it's called being naughty. probably needs a good bit of discipline from Mum.

phoenix2010
10-05-2011, 03:03 PM
Thats not particularly helpful really

Mum says that she doesnt have any problems with him as you would have read in my original post, if you even read it

The problems are at school , and the school have put him on a part time timetable , nothing to do with mums discipline then is it :)

but thanks for your input

Ripeberry
10-05-2011, 03:14 PM
Are there any studies to show what happens to these kids when they grow up? Hope they grow out of it, not a good condition to have if you are trying to hold down a job and can't stand being 'bossed' around.

But maybe they go on to be the boss? :D

moogster1a
10-05-2011, 03:24 PM
A "disorder" would surely mean he couldn't help his behaviour. Therefore why would he behave better at home than school?
He either gets away with bad behaviour at school because nearly all sanctions have been removed and schools are quick to label kids to get extra funds, or mum is having you on / deluding herself and his behaviour is bad at home.
Either way I wouldn't touch him with a bargepole!

Ripeberry
10-05-2011, 04:08 PM
[QUOTE=moogster1a;920237]A "disorder" would surely mean he couldn't help his behaviour. Therefore why would he behave better at home than school?
He either gets away with bad behaviour at school because nearly all sanctions have been removed and schools are quick to label kids to get extra funds, or mum is having you on / deluding herself and his behaviour is bad at home.
Either way I wouldn't touch him with a bargepole![/QUOTE


But then maybe mum does not try to discipline him in any way in case it sets him off. Would like to be a fly on the wall ;)

phoenix2010
10-05-2011, 04:10 PM
nice way to talk about a child :eek:

I was really looking for constructive advice from people with experience

Thankyou

curlycathy
10-05-2011, 04:27 PM
I've worked with young offenders and have come across this. I'm sorry if this isn't what you want to hear but I doubt the behavioural problems are just at school. Im not getting into the debate about whether its just naughtiness or whether it is a medical problem because I still dont really know and could go on for ages about it all...

What I would say is that young people with this do need really really firm boundaries and can be quite frightening to be around (I had a sofa thrown at me when I was pregnant, and yes I do mean a sofa). Thats not to say that all young people are the same but I think you need to be aware and take into account the risks to yourself and to other children, and your home itself.

I would think very very carefully about this and I would ask mum how she does discipline him at home. If she says she doesnt need to alarm bells would ring. Every child needs disciplining from time to time!!

Hope that helps you, not trying to be judgmental or negative but wanted to share my thoughts xx

Pipsqueak
10-05-2011, 04:52 PM
Must admit when I saw the title i thought 'oh a clever new label for badly behaved children and less than desirable parenting techniques..

My 5yr old is very defiant at times
My 10 and 13 year old can be very opposititional AND defiant at times.

Like others have said - whichever way this condition is - i doubt he is just ok at home and not at school

Ok just been to read the 'symptoms'

sorry but that described me to a tee as an angry hard done by beligerent teen (actually probably describes me now)
It describes my kids when they are caught out/told off/stopped from doing something/made to do something/I breathe near them/I ask them to do something.


Going to get of the fence here and say - twaddle

jane5
10-05-2011, 06:01 PM
I have a 5yr old mindee, 1 morning a week who has behavioural problems and only attends school 2 afternoons a week.

I have had him 3 months and he has been fine and responds well to positive praise BUT it is exhausting trying to keep him calm and happy and I give a sigh of relief when he has gone.

That is the post I would have done last week :(

This week it is very different,
He has not been for 3 weeks because of bankholidays ect...
This week he was unsettled and it resulted in him kicking, biting, punching and pinching me. This blew up from absolutely nowhere and he was very violent with me on several occasions in the 4 hours that I had him. It was a complete shock and one of my grown up children had adhd and I thought I was unshockable.

I dont want to give notice because the parents are lovely and so grateful that I have him and I do like this little boy and he loves coming here, but I have a 2yr old dd and 2yr old mindee whilst he is here and I know it is not a good environment for them to be in. I know that I will have to give notice the next time this happens but I feel really bad because I feel I have let him down.

The behaviour must be really bad to exclude him from school and I suspect that mum is not being honest with you especially as you have not met him yet.
Do you have other lo's on the same afternoons? A 10 year old is a lot stronger than my 5yr old.
I would say to you expect the good days to be exhausting and the bad ones to give you sleepless nights.

If it was me I would not do it and I will not ever take on mindees with this level of behaviour problems again. Sorry if that is not what you want to hear.:o

Pipsqueak
10-05-2011, 06:55 PM
[QUOTE=Pipsqueak;920312]Must admit when I saw the title i thought 'oh a clever new label for badly behaved children and less than desirable parenting techniques..

My 5yr old is very defiant at times
My 10 and 13 year old can be very opposititional AND defiant at times.

Like others have said - whichever way this condition is - i doubt he is just ok at home and not at school

Ok just been to read the 'symptoms'

sorry but that described me to a tee as an angry hard done by beligerent teen (actually probably describes me now)
It describes my kids when they are caught out/told off/stopped from doing something/made to do something/I breathe near them/I ask them to do something.


Going to get of the fence here and say - twaddle


QUOTE]

ok come back to re-edit as I realise I probably sound harsh. I accept that there are children (and people) with behavioural problems - granted, however this really does sound a bit of a cop out tbh

flora
10-05-2011, 07:41 PM
Just been to read up.

I have no specific experience of this except with my kids :blush:

Its sound like my two to a tee. DD is 5 and DS is 14.

DD especially does not like to be told what to do on ANY level. But obviously we have to at some point, :D Its like having two teens in the house.

I know you wanted help, and so my only advice would be: meet the child, meet the child again. Visit the child in his own environement. Make a decsion based on what you have seen and then think on it.

I have ds with adhd, this can be confrontational enough and impacts on all of us, so just be very carefull with what sort of child you take on :thumbsup:

Good luck. x

buildingblocks
10-05-2011, 07:43 PM
you have two choices

The first is you decide not to take the family on and never know

The second have mum along sit down and ask her to be completely honest about what his condition means for you, for him. Tell her you are willing to have a go and that you will have an extended settling in period to your contract with the family.

Each of us would deal differently with a situation and you will not know unless you try.

i do talk from experience ( apologies if I use the wrong terms) I have always wanted to work with children with special needs from when I qualified in 1989. I never had the chance until a couple of years ago. A aged 4 came to look around he had severe special needs, was unable to walk,banged his head on the floor (had to wear a special hat) plus lots more. Wasn't sure if I could cope but after a couple of settling in sessions was more confident. Event hough mum signed contracts A didn't come due to funding for my fees not being available.

Go 6 months later had another enquiry. L aged 6 after a couple of settling in sessions wasn't sure I could cope but mum and I agreed to give it a go. Sadly it didn't workout and after 4 hours of watching L hitting her head against my shed and physically moving it by doing this and throwing toys across the room with such force (had baby in setting and was worried about safety issues) i had to ring mum and tell her I couldn't do it any more I was in tears as I felt I ha let L and mum down.

It had nothing to do with child but with the fact that it was upsetting for me so much so hubby was worried about leaving me to go to work as I was so upset that I couldn't help this little girl. In hindsight I might have handled it different but I couldn't cope but at least I gave it a try and if I hadn't I would never have known.

Even if someone could give you their opinion if they had dealt with a child with this condition your experience may be completely different. Good luck with making the right decision for you and your setting

peach
10-05-2011, 07:48 PM
my son has this fire away with the questions hun xx

(pm me if its easyer)

peach
10-05-2011, 07:50 PM
FGS. Yes, it's called being naughty. probably needs a good bit of discipline from Mum.

I find this comment quite un called for tbh!!

my son has this and it has absultly nothing to do with the fact he need a good bit of discipline!

peach
10-05-2011, 08:09 PM
I have gona away for 10 to calm down

ODD is not an excuse for a naughty child at all nor is it somthing that comes diagnosed easily, my son is 9 and has been diagnosed with this for a couple of weeks and just reasently diagnosed with adhd too.

It is a disorder and its very hard to live with and quite distressing bor both the child and the family.

Before you judge and pass comments about things you dont no the facts about please think of other people first!!!!

phoenix2010
10-05-2011, 08:33 PM
Thanks Peach

I was reading a definition of ODD earlier today and it stated that

"aggressive behaviour , cruelty and violence are not symptoms of this condition and this would be something else entirely "

I think people are jumping to some conclusions about the condition without actually checking it out

From what Ive read it is , refusing to respond to authority , being stubourn , uncooperative

Mum works for CAHMS so is well aware of impact on on others of conditions such as this

I have told her I had other children in my care including very small children that I need to protect and she said that she would have no worries about him being around them, he has never been aggressive

She told me that his behaviour is good at home , she believes because he gets much more attention than when at school
She also tells me that she isnt at all convinced by his diagnosis and thinks there is something else going on

They are coming to my home on Thursday , I will have a baby here and will be able to see how he is

I will of course make it clear that if there is ever an incident where I dont feel I can safeguard him, the other children or myself , I will call her to collect him immediatley and end the contract


I will ask her to bring him for at least 2 more settling sessions, so that I am sure that he will not be a risk to my other mindees

I do care for another child sometimes who has very challenging behaviour (no diagnosis but I think Autism and ADHD, but Im no expert, his mum is a mental health nurse , so well practices in dealing with challenging behaviour)

I manage his behaviour quite well I think

I dont want to judge this child before I have even met him, and I dont want to write him off without at least exploring this

It will only be for 4 hours twice a week until he returns to full time education , so possibly just for a month or so

Peach , you say your child has this , have you ever been concerned that there was a risk to other children , pm me if too personal

Thankyou

Daftbat
10-05-2011, 08:37 PM
I have had experience with a child who was diagnosed with ADHD and ODD.

I looked after him off and on and was in contact with him and his family from age 6 to 16.

I have to say that this child was very challenging at times. The way I coped generally was to ensure that things were very "black and white" with no grey areas. He needed to know where he stood at all times and what was going on. He was absolutely fine if kept active and busy and I found him very helpful at times especially with the younger children.

By talking regularly to his parents and finding out how they dealt with things really helped -the re is no room for anyone "hiding" their opinions between carers and parents -it only works if everyone is open. With this in mind I would really challenge what the mother says about his behaviour at home - be open and tell her that you can only help if given all the information you need. At the end of the day the child is mos important.

I hope you get on well with this situation if you decide to go ahead. lots of planning and "plan b's"

Good luck:thumbsup:

phoenix2010
10-05-2011, 08:57 PM
Thanks Daftbat
alot of bells ringing there and similarities with what mum has told me so far

she said he likes to be busy , needs simple clear rules and likes to help and have a role. She said he does like to be around little ones and is good with them

to be honest when hes with me is a very busy part of the day ,12.15 lunch followed by group , then school run 1, followed by school run 2, quick visit to the park on the way home , back home for 4 and hes being collected at 430 , there will be no time for him to get bored :)

Ill let you know how his first visit goes

Pipsqueak
10-05-2011, 09:14 PM
I have gona away for 10 to calm down

ODD is not an excuse for a naughty child at all nor is it somthing that comes diagnosed easily, my son is 9 and has been diagnosed with this for a couple of weeks and just reasently diagnosed with adhd too.

It is a disorder and its very hard to live with and quite distressing bor both the child and the family.

Before you judge and pass comments about things you dont no the facts about please think of other people first!!!!

Please do tell me then how this condition (given that I have done a quickie bit of research) is differentiated from a bratty child? I am genuinely interested before you and others make assumptions.

I was a HORRIBLE child - I was openly defiant to anyone I saw as a challenge or opposition - I probably still am to a degree.
I can go past stubborn to the point of irrational behaviour and cutting my nose.

I have learnt over the years to control my temper but when that switch gets flicked its the point of no return - even now in my adult years.

I HATE being like I am, I have to work extremly hard at not being how I am, I have no idea why I am the way I am... my sibs are pretty easy going placid people, my parents treated us all the same - although my mother said i was 'hard work' as I never slept, and just done what I wanted to do as well as getting into all sorts of scrapes.

I feel I have no control over certain elements even now as an adult

To be quite honest I was a bratty child, a horrendous teen and an adult who really has to make an effort with certain parts of my 'personality'. I have often wondered if I have a 'disorder'. I knew though wrong from right and I knew what I was doing was out of order..... well I could see it from a distance iyswim.

I make myself sound unhinged and horrid - honest I am not!

So, please you and others do NOT make assumptions about me either and that 'i do not know'. I have BEEN on that end then if you go by the symptoms described.

and you have got to make allowances for todays oh-so-wonderful society and the Asbo generation of brats and the huge lack of discipline that is so reflective of today.


they 'symptoms' are reflective on most children at some point and yes it probably goes deeper I understand that however I wonder how many people will try to use it as a cop out. Keeping ANY child occupied is a sure fire way to keep them out of bother, giving clear and simple instructions to any child is a way to make thing run smoothly..... rules is rules and any child entering my setting - whether they are 3 or 13, dyslexic, adhd will adhere to them - of course their will be differentiation and individual consideration for the varying factors but we all have to abide by the same basic rules.

I am struggling to get a handle on this relatively new 'condition' that is all.

moogster1a
11-05-2011, 06:26 AM
Pipsqueak
I think in the past we've clashed horns a few times but in your last post I could have written that myself!
I know now, and did at the time that I was a defiant, oppositional child / teen. I hated being told what to do( still do, hence the self employment!) always thought I knew better, and generally ticked all the boxes of this "disorder". The difference with me as opposed to being labelled, is my parents and teachers used a very firm hand and I knew I was in the wrong.
As a consequence i'm quite an old fashioned disciplinarian myself . I think if I'd have been given the excuse of being told it basically wasn't my fault, I wouldn't have strived to correct the more annoying aspects of my behaviour as I grew up.
Let's face it, some children just need more discipline.

peach
11-05-2011, 07:18 AM
There is a lot more to ODD than been naughty!!

I dont feel i need to explain my self to anyone, so im not!

I was a difficult child but probebly nothing out of the ordenary.

I do not make excuses for his behavior either!

and surely if it was parental issues wouldnt my other children be the same?

jumpinjen
11-05-2011, 07:37 AM
FGS. Yes, it's called being naughty. probably needs a good bit of discipline from Mum.

:eek: Are you for real? I have a strong suspicion that my eldest daughter would react badly in school due to the pressure and the group situations but as a home educated child she thrives...... you are taking a very harsh line considering you know nothing about it..... lucky for the parent she didn't choose you as a CM!!!!!

Pipsqueak
11-05-2011, 07:41 AM
There is a lot more to ODD than been naughty!!

I dont feel i need to explain my self to anyone, so im not!

I was a difficult child but probebly nothing out of the ordenary.

I do not make excuses for his behavior either!

and surely if it was parental issues wouldnt my other children be the same?

For goodness sake I am NOT asking you to justify YOURself I am asking a genuine question in relation to this condition - one that you appear reluctant to enter into for whatever reason - the reason I ask though is that so that I can learn and perhaps expand my own knowledge and perhaps even make a more informed judgement.

If you read my post properly you will see that perhaps I tick all the boxes and I have justified my stance. Perhaps its a generational thing - who knows.

Pipsqueak
11-05-2011, 07:43 AM
Can I just say . some of those defending this condition/disorder are VERY judgemental about those of us who are OPPOSITIONAL to you.
You are not showing us the same tolerance that you are expecting from us.

however as reasoned adults surely we can discuss properly??

jumpinjen
11-05-2011, 07:51 AM
Pipsqueak, I'm not expert on it but from a conversation I had with someone recently about it, i think that the difference between ODD and 'being naughty' is that the child finds it incredibly distressing themself and cannot 'break out of it' when they are in mid-flow. They don't understand themself why they are behaving like that and cannot alter their behaviour in that particular time-frame in response to a reasonable request or reasoning from an adult. I'm not very good at explaining things so hope that makes sense. I don't think it's a case of disipline, but of knowing the child and how they respond to avoid getting into those confrontational moments. That doesn't mean that the child is left to run wild and be disrespectful but that the environment and/or situation is manipulated to avoid 'flare-ups'. As CM's we hopefully take a respectful and flexible line towards managing all children's behaviour anyway as one rigid line of discipline does not fit all, so I think the OP will be fine and asking mum for her way of managing her child could be very insightful as she knows her child best!

Jen x

jumpinjen
11-05-2011, 07:53 AM
Can I just say . some of those defending this condition/disorder are VERY judgemental about those of us who are OPPOSITIONAL to you.
You are not showing us the same tolerance that you are expecting from us.

however as reasoned adults surely we can discuss properly??

I think it's quite possibly a very emotive subject for those with children with the disorder, and some of the language used by those in opposition to it being a disorder was a tad inflammatory in my opinion!!!!

I'm sure we can discus it sensibly though.... we usually manage to in the end!!!

jen:D

karen m
11-05-2011, 07:56 AM
my youngest son had this one thing i would say is that i found there were days his behaviour at home was as bad as at school but it was more school enviroment,at home we had very firm boundaries ,reward systems ,PRAISE,PRAISE ,son did have other medical issues too which meant time away from school and i often wonder if when he went back he felt differant than others they had made closer friendships etc,my son is a adult now and i would say he is 90%fine has off days,i would really try and give it a go or you will always be wondering,sorry for the ramble

Pipsqueak
11-05-2011, 08:26 AM
Pipsqueak, I'm not expert on it but from a conversation I had with someone recently about it, i think that the difference between ODD and 'being naughty' is that the child finds it incredibly distressing themself and cannot 'break out of it' when they are in mid-flow. They don't understand themself why they are behaving like that and cannot alter their behaviour in that particular time-frame in response to a reasonable request or reasoning from an adult. I'm not very good at explaining things so hope that makes sense. I don't think it's a case of disipline, but of knowing the child and how they respond to avoid getting into those confrontational moments. That doesn't mean that the child is left to run wild and be disrespectful but that the environment and/or situation is manipulated to avoid 'flare-ups'. As CM's we hopefully take a respectful and flexible line towards managing all children's behaviour anyway as one rigid line of discipline does not fit all, so I think the OP will be fine and asking mum for her way of managing her child could be very insightful as she knows her child best!

Jen x

thank you Jen.
I agree - its an emotive and interesting one and whilst i am not trashing anyones beliefs and as a childminder I am very open and supportive of ALL my clients. I am actually VERY tolerant of other people. what I am doing now on this thread is trying to discuss and potentially find out more.. from those who actually have experience of it - not to be shot down in flames with a lack of tolerance and hissy fits from others. Yes I am more than capable of putting my point across and defending my view point however I am also very open to learning more and I resent the attitude of some. This is ALWAYS a very respectful and tolerant forum and occassionally we have flares ups - its only to be expected with some many viewpoints.


I will say it again - What you have described has described me to a tee when I was younger - perhaps even now as an adult at times. the methods of discipline you describe as well - can be and does apply to all children - finding what makes them tick (simply put). i think what i am trying to say that my behaviour was not acceptable nor was it accepted, it did not have a name (except for bratty child). We are all so PC nowadays and we cannot say or do this and its the softly softly approach and tippy toe around and look where its got us.

I think there is a wrong definition of 'discipline' nowadays as well - discipline actually means guidance, training. Discipline does not mean punishment as people seem to imply it is in todays society.

phoenix2010
11-05-2011, 09:43 AM
I didnt get the impression that pipsqueak was doubting the existence of the condition

she was just questioning her own behaviour and trying to make sense of it

I think the different between a child who is consistently naughty and a child with a condition which makes them behave in a certain way is how they feel after the event and whether they seem to have any control over it

Children who struggle to control their behaviour often feel confused and distressed after the event , whereas in my opinion my 5 year old (who doesnt have ODD or ADHD) usually gives a begrudging "sorry" when he misbehaves and his behaviour can be entirely explained

e.g. he was trying to get my attention/ his own way but I could "control" his behaviour to an extent with my actions e.g. distraction /reasoning

Seeing a child misbehave is entirely different to watching a child struggling to control their behaviour

Im really looking forward to meeting him and his mum and I hope that he can fit into our little unit here , I like a challenge and I love to work with different personalities , wouldnt it be a sad world if children were all the same :)

buildingblocks
11-05-2011, 09:50 AM
I think there is a wrong definition of 'discipline' nowadays as well - discipline actually means guidance, training. Discipline does not mean punishment as people seem to imply it is in todays society.

I agree too many people seem to think discipline means smacking a child. It is about setting boundaries and sticking to it.

Many of my parents ask me why their children behave for me and not them and I have to find a polite way of saying to them its because when I set down rules I stick to them and don't bribe them e.g. conversation last week

Mum if you don't behave then you can't go to A's tomorrow (A looks after child on a Friday; child plays up for mum child goes to A's what is that teaching child - don't threaten things you are not going to carry out (and yes it is easier when they are not your own but my mum did okay with me)

I got the cane once at school (yes I am that old lol but didn't need it again) and my mum smacked me once and again didn't need it again.a few years ago one of my mindees aged about 9 asked me if I was scared of 'Aunty Phyllis' (my mum) and replied no but I respect my mum and if you had heard the way her and her sister spoke to their mum her question was understandable

curlycathy
11-05-2011, 09:54 AM
I agree with you Pip with regards to the meaning of discipline. I once got shot down in flames (so to speak) in my social work days when I was on training and part of it was about what a young child needs - I said discipline and someone had a real go at me before I managed to explain that I meant the routine, the values, the way of life etc.

With regards to the OP, I would say you have clearly thought it all through and seem to be wanting to give it a go. I would just urge you to have a clause in the contract to allow for immediate termination, or collection by mum and time away from your setting. Children with this can be violent - maybe thats part of something else, I dont know. I'm just speaking from my OWN experience of working with children who were diagnosed with this. I am NOT saying EVERY child with this is violent. But just bear in mind that at 10 he is likely to be hitting puberty soon too - with all the added pressures that brings in on top of his disorder.

You do sound like you will be fully prepared though and I wish you the best of luck x

buildingblocks
11-05-2011, 09:58 AM
I think the different between a child who is consistently naughty and a child with a condition which makes them behave in a certain way is how they feel after the event and whether they seem to have any control over it

I also now how many children who were described as being 'naughty'when I grew up as a child in the late 60's and early 70's actually had a condition that had not been diagnosed or discovered (want to say invented but that's the wrong word as well).

I also feel for parents whose children have a genuine 'condition' as (generalising here) a lot of parents claim their children have something when actually they haven't but parent won't admit it.

A friend of mine has a step child who according to mum has all sorts of conditions including Turrets/ADHD and a large number of others. But when you meet this child 300 miles away from mum and with step mum and Dad shows no signs of any.

Now I am not saying he hasn't got them as I am not a medical person. but until she told me what he had i wouldn't have known and still haven't seen any evidence which would say he had.

jumpinjen
11-05-2011, 10:20 AM
i like the montessori interpretation of discipline which is based upon supporting the child to gain control over their physical self and by that route they become in touch with their mind through the feedback mechanism of attempting an activity - message back to brain - interpreted - message through to muscles - movement made and so on and by gaining control over the both they become disciplined..... called self-discipline I suppose and develop an awareness of expected and accepted behaviours.

i understand what you are saying about PC treatment of bad behaviour and that things aren't tackled because of policies and this that and the other.... it is a fine line between not constantly making a child feel they are awful and tackling their unwanted behaviours. When there is an inconsistent approach at home and in settings then there isn't much hope I don't think but where the approaches to help the child are all in-line and working towards the same goal i think it is well worth trying different approaches, even if it means setting different expectations for that child for a time period etc

Jen x

Pipsqueak
11-05-2011, 10:30 AM
i like the montessori interpretation of discipline which is based upon supporting the child to gain control over their physical self and by that route they become in touch with their mind through the feedback mechanism of attempting an activity - message back to brain - interpreted - message through to muscles - movement made and so on and by gaining control over the both they become disciplined..... called self-discipline I suppose and develop an awareness of expected and accepted behaviours.

i understand what you are saying about PC treatment of bad behaviour and that things aren't tackled because of policies and this that and the other.... it is a fine line between not constantly making a child feel they are awful and tackling their unwanted behaviours. When there is an inconsistent approach at home and in settings then there isn't much hope I don't think but where the approaches to help the child are all in-line and working towards the same goal i think it is well worth trying different approaches, even if it means setting different expectations for that child for a time period etc

Jen x

Absolutely, a friend of mine is terrified of disciplining her youngest 5 children. one of her older ones (age 14)... because she could not get her own way made up allegations against the mum - resulting in the mum being removed from the family home (her youngest being 9 months old) for nearly a month whilst the family were investigated and the younger children examined. my friend HAD to admit so other(false) charges were dropped to smacking her eldest child when they were a toddler (so 12 years or so ago) and was threatened with prosecution for it. The ironical thing is this mum does not smack her children now.. as she said she has learned through parenting that this is not the course of action and discipline she wants to take with her children, she does not do it at all now and the child who was smacked was the last one to be smacked at that incident.

She is now thinks her moves are being watched, she is terrified of disciplining the younger children all because of the PC brigade.

Anyway, i agree years ago there were not names for certain conditions - the lad down the road - he was always naughty and he went to the naughty boys school - turns out he has ADHD. Drove his mum to distraction.

anyway I will come back in a weeny while... need to wake up the babies for lunch!

peach
11-05-2011, 11:51 AM
For goodness sake I am NOT asking you to justify YOURself I am asking a genuine question in relation to this condition - one that you appear reluctant to enter into for whatever reason - the reason I ask though is that so that I can learn and perhaps expand my own knowledge and perhaps even make a more informed judgement.

If you read my post properly you will see that perhaps I tick all the boxes and I have justified my stance. Perhaps its a generational thing - who knows.

my post wasnt aimed at you it was a genral post.
I am reluctant to go into detail on the forum as it seems some people seem to have a opinion of ODD that I dont want and to be honest cant be bothered to argue with about it.

It is quite a difficult subject to talk about on so many levels and in so many way.

I was going to nanswer your post once I had the chance to as pre 9.30am its quite hectic.

I see others have already answered anyway but if you do need more then feel free to ask.

I am not a profeshional on the subject and can only talk from the experience I have had with my son!

peach
11-05-2011, 11:53 AM
Pipsqueak, I'm not expert on it but from a conversation I had with someone recently about it, i think that the difference between ODD and 'being naughty' is that the child finds it incredibly distressing themself and cannot 'break out of it' when they are in mid-flow. They don't understand themself why they are behaving like that and cannot alter their behaviour in that particular time-frame in response to a reasonable request or reasoning from an adult. I'm not very good at explaining things so hope that makes sense. I don't think it's a case of disipline, but of knowing the child and how they respond to avoid getting into those confrontational moments. That doesn't mean that the child is left to run wild and be disrespectful but that the environment and/or situation is manipulated to avoid 'flare-ups'. As CM's we hopefully take a respectful and flexible line towards managing all children's behaviour anyway as one rigid line of discipline does not fit all, so I think the OP will be fine and asking mum for her way of managing her child could be very insightful as she knows her child best!

Jen x

this is true, we almost have to predict (and can do quite often) how he will react in certain situations ect and often can predict the type of day we will have although we can also be very very rong too.

The Juggler
11-05-2011, 12:59 PM
Pipsqueak, I'm not expert on it but from a conversation I had with someone recently about it, i think that the difference between ODD and 'being naughty' is that the child finds it incredibly distressing themself and cannot 'break out of it' when they are in mid-flow. They don't understand themself why they are behaving like that and cannot alter their behaviour in that particular time-frame in response to a reasonable request or reasoning from an adult. I'm not very good at explaining things so hope that makes sense. I don't think it's a case of disipline, but of knowing the child and how they respond to avoid getting into those confrontational moments. That doesn't mean that the child is left to run wild and be disrespectful but that the environment and/or situation is manipulated to avoid 'flare-ups'. As CM's we hopefully take a respectful and flexible line towards managing all children's behaviour anyway as one rigid line of discipline does not fit all, so I think the OP will be fine and asking mum for her way of managing her child could be very insightful as she knows her child best!

Jen x

Jen I think you explained the difference very well here. I have to say my dd is 'a handful' i read around her 'symptoms' and came across a book about spirited children. They have intense emotions, not just in defiance but mainly it comes across as defiance as they find it hard to sit still, make transitions (in and out of car/house), do something they hadn't planned on or where plans have changed.

Thing is it is their personalities. Maybe I'm wrong but this is not diagnosed by this psychologist in the book as a 'condition' rather their personality - their intense emotions/perceptions. Yes, dealing with it is as you have described you work VERY hard to avoid situations - preparing them for change, things they need to do, VERY firm boundaries and when they are 'in one' and they can't control their emotions so there is no reasoning all you can do is calm them, comfort them and talk later about their behaviour. DD is 9 now and every morning/day is difficult. It's so exhausting sometimes I'm in tears before she goes to school in the mornign. She creates argument out of nothing (and is very clever at it!)

However, I still wouldn't consider this a condition - it is her personality. I'm not dissing ODD at all but I think doctors are quick to name things as conditions these days and management of ODD, personality and spirited childrne seems the same in my book - avoidance, boundaries and effort. My dd is not the same as my ds - he is much more chilled - I parent them the same but I think a child's personality is not created by parenting.

Pipsqueak
11-05-2011, 01:21 PM
[/COLOR]
my post wasnt aimed at you it was a genral post.
I am reluctant to go into detail on the forum as it seems some people seem to have a opinion of ODD that I dont want and to be honest cant be bothered to argue with about it.

[COLOR="red"]This forum has a huge number of members and only a very small fraction have posted on this particular thread. Out of those there have only been two - me and someone else who have questioned this. Oh the whole this forum is very respectful and polite and very tolerant of others. On ANY forum - it is a discussion platform and of course you are not going to get people who agree with every word you say. the big difference is this forum - you can have an opposing view to them - voice and air it and it doesn't turn in (for the most part) a slanging match. EVeryone is entitled to their opinion - even if its an opposing view.

If you, with your experience cannot be bothered to have a discussion with people and hopefully change their views or educate them that is obviously your perogative. You do not have to be the mouthpiece for this condition obviously but for such a potentially misunderstood and relatively new condition then surely it needs experienced people and those who are believers to reach out to spread the understanding so it HELPS those sufferers./COLOR]



I am not a profeshional on the subject and can only talk from the experience I have had with my son!

and YOU are the most qualified then to talk about and be the spokesperson for it.

I am still not overly convinced. Like I say perhaps a generational thing.....

Pipsqueak
11-05-2011, 01:24 PM
However, I still wouldn't consider this a condition - it is her personality. I'm not dissing ODD at all but I think doctors are quick to name things as conditions these days and management of ODD, personality and spirited childrne seems the same in my book - avoidance, boundaries and effort. My dd is not the same as my ds - he is much more chilled - I parent them the same but I think a child's personality is not created by parenting.

Eloquently put - what I was trying to say. People want a NAME for something..

Thats what I was called a 'spirited' child (along with wilful, bratty, stubborn, awkward, rebellious, self destructive, very volatile, argumentative to the point of dangerous along with a few more!!) - and I am still the same just that I have matured and learned to cope with it and deal with it - better.

jumpinjen
11-05-2011, 02:50 PM
I think that labels/names for things can work both ways.... they either label the child and restrict the child within the remit of the syptoms or expected behaviours of the condition, therefore being a hindrance....

or....

they can be a huge relief for parents who have struggled and struggled for a long time with behaviours they don't understand and negative reactions from school or others and are very relieved to be given a diagnosis and then feel that it isn't their fault and be given some support and guidance to deal with it, strategies for behaviour management etc.

We are all different as parents and whilst some feel strong enough to deal with it and don't want assessments/diagnoses/follow ups etc, others welcome this.... just two different pathways and each to their own really....

I love the story my friend tells of her sister's husband. He is 30 and has ADHD. In America it was always a problem, he found it restrictive, he was very 'labelled' by it. Now living and working in South Africa as a missionary supporting very poor families in the townships, his ADHD has beome a gift as his extraordinary energy and drive and the many many ideas he comes up with are a very positive thing both to him and to the people he helps. He does say that he woldn't have got through high school without that label though as it meant he was helped to manage his behaviour and he had more tolerance because of it..... interesting from the two sides I though!

jen x

peach
11-05-2011, 03:11 PM
I do agree in some ways about labling a child and I also disagree with it in some ways too,

maybe the people who dont agree with ODD and those of us that do are gonna have to agree to disagree as we all have our opions ect and I respect them and I can understand how it can come across as another name for a naughty child, but trust me if you had to live with it day in day out you would see there is a difference x

onceinabluemoon
11-05-2011, 04:49 PM
Eloquently put - what I was trying to say. People want a NAME for something..

.

Sadly, that's often because a 'name' brings with it extra financial benefits.

Pipsqueak
11-05-2011, 04:53 PM
I agree about the 'labelling' - I have battled on with school to get a proper name put to Harrys' 'specific learning disability' (dyslexia) but no go because they do not want to have to put things into place once the 'name' is there

N'er mind - we manage on our own.


Peach - there is nothing to agree to disagree - you have not really entered an argument.

jumpinjen
11-05-2011, 05:19 PM
Sadly, that's often because a 'name' brings with it extra financial benefits.

Sadly true.... there is a family nearby with parents that smoke in the house and are on unemployment and disability benefits and they get extra benefits so they tell me because one of their children has asthma.....

my child has asthma and we would never let anyone amoke around her and no-one gives us any extra money!!!!

Schools and their statements and funding for individual support is another thread totally... my niece is dyslexic and nearly 14 and her mum has battled for years to get her support.... it never arrived in time and she is so switched off to learning, she's just biding her time til she can leave... so sad!

jen x

nokidshere
11-05-2011, 09:19 PM
I have never had experience of, or heard of ODD so have nothing useful to add really.

Except to ask, if the child has been diagnosed then he should have been statmented and given extra support in school shouldn;t he?

phoenix2010
12-05-2011, 05:52 AM
yes he gets one to one in the mornings but his school day ends at 12pm
I suppose thats when the funding runs out :rolleyes:

He also goes to the secondary school that he will attend in sept one afternoon a week which i think is a brilliant idea , getting him used to the building and the people in it and the way things run so that it isnt such a shock to the system when he goes in sept

he is getting help but not for the entire school week , mum is hoping that he will be allowed back to full time soon , so this would be a temporary measure

phoenix2010
18-05-2011, 04:58 PM
Just an update really ....

I did take this boy on and had him 5 hours yesterday and 5 hours today

I have just given his mum notice and I feel awful about it

Basically, and I wont go into detail , I didnt feel I could safeguard the other mindees and also my own child

I could have him on a one to one basis , no problem , has he got a disorder / condition? , I didnt see evidence of the disorder he has been diagnosed with based on the descriptions of ODD that I have read

He had no problem with me being authoritative with him when he go over excited / cheeky / rude

My main concern was his overly violent play with my 4 year old (bearing in mind he was a big 10 year old) and threats that he made towards a one year old who was crying, not something I want to repeat on here , but very shocking

I saw a child who has pushed peoples buttons and got exactly what he wants most of the time, who wants people to fear him

I would consider he does have behavioural issues but they dont fit the description of ODD in any way, I think his mother is being misled and that will not do him any good what so ever

I had to make a decision based on safeguarding the other children , and dont feel I can give him the attention he craves

After 10 hours with him I got the impression I couldnt turn my back for a second

I dont feel like a failure , I would have failed if he hurt another child that I was supposed to be caring for ,I dont regret trying and it has taught me something too , that I much prefer mindees who are 5 and younger :)

clio0602
18-05-2011, 05:46 PM
Pipsqueak, I'm not expert on it but from a conversation I had with someone recently about it, i think that the difference between ODD and 'being naughty' is that the child finds it incredibly distressing themself and cannot 'break out of it' when they are in mid-flow. They don't understand themself why they are behaving like that and cannot alter their behaviour in that particular time-frame in response to a reasonable request or reasoning from an adult. I'm not very good at explaining things so hope that makes sense. I don't think it's a case of disipline, but of knowing the child and how they respond to avoid getting into those confrontational moments. That doesn't mean that the child is left to run wild and be disrespectful but that the environment and/or situation is manipulated to avoid 'flare-ups'. As CM's we hopefully take a respectful and flexible line towards managing all children's behaviour anyway as one rigid line of discipline does not fit all, so I think the OP will be fine and asking mum for her way of managing her child could be very insightful as she knows her child best!

Jen x

This is what I originally thought dd 10yrs had but now they think asd i'm confused with it all just would like him to get any help he needs but not getting anywhere :(

Ripeberry
18-05-2011, 08:16 PM
Just an update really ....

I did take this boy on and had him 5 hours yesterday and 5 hours today

I have just given his mum notice and I feel awful about it

Basically, and I wont go into detail , I didnt feel I could safeguard the other mindees and also my own child

I could have him on a one to one basis , no problem , has he got a disorder / condition? , I didnt see evidence of the disorder he has been diagnosed with based on the descriptions of ODD that I have read

He had no problem with me being authoritative with him when he go over excited / cheeky / rude




















My main concern was his overly violent play with my 4 year old (bearing in mind he was a big 10 year old) and threats that he made towards a one year old who was crying, not something I want to repeat on here , but very shocking

I saw a child who has pushed peoples buttons and got exactly what he wants most of the time, who wants people to fear him

I would consider he does have behavioural issues but they dont fit the description of ODD in any way, I think his mother is being misled and that will not do him any good what so ever

I had to make a decision based on safeguarding the other children , and dont feel I can give him the attention he craves

After 10 hours with him I got the impression I couldnt turn my back for a second

I dont feel like a failure , I would have failed if he hurt another child that I was supposed to be caring for ,I dont regret trying and it has taught me something too , that I much prefer mindees who are 5 and younger :)


At least you gave it a go. God help the mum when he becomes a teenager :( :(

The Juggler
18-05-2011, 09:48 PM
At least you gave it a go. God help the mum when he becomes a teenager :( :(

I agree. :)

Beetlejuice
18-05-2011, 09:57 PM
Gosh that sounds erm 'challenging' to say the least. Well done you for giving him a chance but it sounds to me like you've made the right decision to terminate