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levason
27-02-2011, 10:29 AM
As a cm can we only give calpol on the parents request and we get them to sign the necessary ncma paperwork or if we felt they needed calpol can we give as long as we hav had permission over the phone? bit confused. xx

Minstrel
27-02-2011, 10:39 AM
You need WRITTEN permission before each and every occasion so a blanket cover permission wouldn't be enough. If a child needs it suddenly then a text or email giving permission would be ok until they came to collect and could then fill out your meds book.

sarah707
27-02-2011, 10:45 AM
The requirements say that we can only give medication if parents sign to give us permission before the event or if we are told to give it by a medical practitioner.

So here are a few scenarios...

A child arrives with a bit of a cold. Stop parents from leaving until they have signed to say when medication was last given (so you do not overdose) and how much and when you can give if needed.

A child starts spiking a temperature through the day. Parents cannot be contacted or are working a long way away so you ring the child's doctor or NHS direct for advice. A medical professional tells you to give paracetamol to bring the temp down. You write it up later for parents to sign - including the name of the professional, time, dosage, what happened next etc.

A child is teething and parents give you gel or leave it in the child's bag and dash off. You cannot put the gel on the child because you do not have written permission to do it.

Parents are in a rush and pass over a bottle of cough medicine, reassuring you they will sign all the papers when they come to collect and asking you to give it at 12.00. You cannot give the child the medicine because you do not have written permission or a written note of when to give it, when it was last given and how much to give.

a child has an Epipen and you have written permission from parents to use it in an emergency. You also have training. If the child is having an anaphylactic shock you give the Epipen.

these and other scenarios are clarified in document 080290 'Giving medication to children in registered childcare' on the Ofsted website.

Hth :D

babs
27-02-2011, 04:50 PM
i had a child last week who was fine when she arrived went to play group came back had dinner, nvq assessor turned up went to take lo out of high chair and when i picked her up noticed she was hot, hands hot unusual for this child took temp was 39.9 ,rang mum while doing so, undressed lo told mum on phone and asked permission for capol she said yes and asked her to collect when she did she signed paperwork i had filled out and i give her a run down of what happened... when she had gone my nvq assessor prised me saying well done i got loads of obs on that another part of your nvq done :clapping: :clapping: i sort of went in to auto pilot.

MrAnchovy
20-03-2011, 04:03 PM
You need WRITTEN permission before each and every occasion so a blanket cover permission wouldn't be enough.

That is not true. The Ofsted guidance (http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/content/download/9052/100128/file/Giving%20medication%20in%20childcare.pdf) says:


If you already have written permission to give a particular over-the-counter medication to a child, and you need to, you do not have to get written permission every time you give it. However, you may consider it good practice to ask the parent to sign the written record, which you must complete, to confirm that you have told them that you gave the agreed medication. This will allow you to prove you have let parents know that you gave the medication, as shown in the Statutory Framework.

I was pointed here from another forum where this wrong information was being repeated :(

MaffAnna
20-03-2011, 04:14 PM
I was told at my pre reg inspection that it isn't good practice to give non prescription medication, and that I would never be an "outstanding" childminder if I did!

MrAnchovy
20-03-2011, 04:24 PM
Well while I have the Ofsted site up, here (http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/Ofsted-home/Forms-and-guidance/Browse-all-by/Other/General/Complaints-procedure-raising-concerns-and-making-complaints-about-Ofsted) is the link for the procedure to complain about an inspector :D

keatingschick
20-03-2011, 04:31 PM
One of our local early years team was trying to get it pushed that we didnt give any medication unless prescribed by a doctor and said we are not doctors and cannot decide if a child needs medication, and also didnt really like the idea of parents freely saying (how many times have we heard this) "there is calpol in the bag if he/she needs it" when rushing out the door leaving behind a child who REALLY shouldnt be here.

I have to admit that I now tend to say "IF you want me to give calpol then tell me how much and when you last gave it, when you want me to give it and sign my book please, otherwise I wont be able to give it"

sarah707
20-03-2011, 04:36 PM
Yes Mr A you are right that is what the Ofsted medication document says.

However it also says on page 2 of the same document that we must...

Get written permission from parents for every medicine before you give any medication.


It also does not explain what would happen if we were to give a child medication under a 'blanket permission form' and then find that we had overdosed the child and potentially made the child worse as a result.

So, a childminder who works within the Ofsted requirements but also does not want to fall foul of the requirements to keep children healthy and safe and to work closely in partnership with parents will make every attempt to contact parents and to get permission from them which includes information about when the medication was last given BEFORE giving any medication to any child regardless of 'blanket permission'.

If such information cannot be given by parents, unless there was an urgent medical need (such as a child having an anaphylactic shock when emergency permission would be in place via a care plan) then we can defer to medical practitioners and follow their advice.

I hope this clarifies :D

nicola1981
20-03-2011, 04:41 PM
would an email or text class as written permission?

for eg the child became unwell after mum/dad had left for work

Minstrel
20-03-2011, 04:47 PM
Well while I have the Ofsted site up, here (http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/Ofsted-home/Forms-and-guidance/Browse-all-by/Other/General/Complaints-procedure-raising-concerns-and-making-complaints-about-Ofsted) is the link for the procedure to complain about an inspector :D

You must put the welfare of the child first....

So how would you know when the last dose was given without checking and making sure you don't overdose?

What if a parent doesn't want the child given calpol for teething and would prefer a natural remedy? Maybe you have the calpol permission signed for instances of a temp. only.

The thing is Mr A- until you are a childminder (and i assume you have not made the professional leap from accountancy to childcare) then you will not know what it is like to HAVE to get everything down in writing so as to cover you're back side in the sue everyone culture that we live in!

JCrakers
20-03-2011, 05:43 PM
When each child starts with me I get parent to sign a form about what medication to give for a temp. Calpol or Nurofen..Theyy sign it saying that if my child develops a temp within my care I can give this medicine.
Ofsted were fine with this.

Any other medications uch as cough med, antibiotics, creams, etc I have to have written permission in the morning so I gave each parent forms to fill out at home so they are not late for work.

becky

onceinabluemoon
20-03-2011, 05:54 PM
When each child starts with me I get parent to sign a form about what medication to give for a temp. Calpol or Nurofen..Theyy sign it saying that if my child develops a temp within my care I can give this medicine.
Ofsted were fine with this.


wish they'd make their minds up, i was told written permission each and every time (as in illness/bout of teething, not every day)

MrAnchovy
20-03-2011, 06:53 PM
you will not know what it is like to HAVE to get everything down in writing so as to cover you're back side in the sue everyone culture that we live in!

What makes you think that? Some people would say that is a pretty good description of the accountancy profession ;)

The guidance is quite clear to me. You must have "written permission from parents for every medicine before you give any medication" means that if you don't have written permission (ie not a text or a phone call) on file to give paracetamol, you must not give paracetamol. It does not say you must have specific written permission from parents to administer medication on every occasion that you give it.

Of course that doesn't mean that if you have written permission to give paracetamol that you pour half a bottle of Calpol down their necks the moment they start crying without asking if they have had any already, there are other things that you need to do to ensure that you are acting diligently, but getting specific permission in writing for that day is not one of them, not according to the official Ofsted guidance anyway.

Mouse
20-03-2011, 07:02 PM
I have a blanket permission to give a child paracetamol. If I think the child needs it, I phone or text the parent and ask if I can give it, if they've already had it & if so, how much and when. I also ask what dose I should give.

I then write it up & get parents to sign when they collect the child. I give them a copy of the form so they have a record of when & how much the child had.

Ofsted have never pulled me up on my approach.

Mouse
20-03-2011, 07:09 PM
So, a childminder who works within the Ofsted requirements but also does not want to fall foul of the requirements to keep children healthy and safe and to work closely in partnership with parents will make every attempt to contact parents and to get permission from them which includes information about when the medication was last given BEFORE giving any medication to any child regardless of 'blanket permission'.

If such information cannot be given by parents, unless there was an urgent medical need (such as a child having an anaphylactic shock when emergency permission would be in place via a care plan) then we can defer to medical practitioners and follow their advice.



I also agree with that. If I couldn't contact parents, I wouldn't give paracetamol, despite having the blanket permission. If necessary I would contact NHS direct or the GP for advice. If the child had been with me for more than 4 hours I could proabably assume it was OK to give it to them, but I wouldn't risk making that decission myself.

mushpea
20-03-2011, 07:09 PM
if it was somthing like a headache or sore throat then I wouldnt give it without written permision if it were somthing like a hight temp then i would txt parent and if it were an emergency then I would give anyway.
my question is do you give your own calpol to them or do you only give it if the child brings it.

Mouse
20-03-2011, 07:12 PM
if it was somthing like a headache or sore throat then I wouldnt give it without written permision if it were somthing like a hight temp then i would txt parent and if it were an emergency then I would give anyway.
my question is do you give your own calpol to them or do you only give it if the child brings it.

I don't keep children's paracetamol in, so can only give it if parents provide it. Most of the children seem to have a couple of those little sachets in their bag.

As a rule, I think I would ask parents to provide it.

sarah707
20-03-2011, 07:19 PM
if it was somthing like a headache or sore throat then I wouldnt give it without written permision if it were somthing like a hight temp then i would txt parent and if it were an emergency then I would give anyway.
my question is do you give your own calpol to them or do you only give it if the child brings it.

The latest advice from training (ask Blaze for more information she went on the course) is that you should write a medication hand over procedure and share it with parents.

The procedure should talk about how you manage medication in the provision and how you must have written permission, that day, to give children medication such as Calpol or teething gels.

Medication must not, the training says, be left in a child's bag 'just in case' or handed over without written permission signed on that day along with a note of when it was last given to the child.

However in an emergency situation when for example emergency services say yes the child needs medication, we understand you cannot contact parents, do it now... then you are covered to give your own because medical advice supersedes your own decision making.

In such instances you would then need to inform parents, Ofsted and take advice from your insurance company.

I hope that clarifies - as I said Blaze went on the training and shared the above with me :D

Minstrel
20-03-2011, 08:31 PM
What makes you think that? Some people would say that is a pretty good description of the accountancy profession ;)

The guidance is quite clear to me. You must have "written permission from parents for every medicine before you give any medication" means that if you don't have written permission (ie not a text or a phone call) on file to give paracetamol, you must not give paracetamol. It does not say you must have specific written permission from parents to administer medication on every occasion that you give it.

Of course that doesn't mean that if you have written permission to give paracetamol that you pour half a bottle of Calpol down their necks the moment they start crying without asking if they have had any already, there are other things that you need to do to ensure that you are acting diligently, but getting specific permission in writing for that day is not one of them, not according to the official Ofsted guidance anyway.

I have written and deleted many responses to this but have given up trying to explain best practice to you.

If you, as an accountant feel best placed to advise childminders on such matters then go for it!

Good night all!

MrAnchovy
20-03-2011, 09:02 PM
I am sorry that I seem to have upset you in some way: I did not intend to do that.

I am not trying to explain best practice: I think that Mouse, bexc and Sarah707 have all done a good job of that on this thread anyway :)

I posted on this thread because I felt that it could be read as saying 'there is no point in having blanket written permission because you need permission each time' whereas even if seeking confirmation each time by phone is best practice, written permission (whether blanket or specific) before the event is a requirement.

mushpea
21-03-2011, 06:55 AM
so basicly what ofsted are saying is we can not give calpol without a medical sheet/permision form signed that day,,, so if a child comes to us perfectly well 7.30am and by lunch time is feeling unwell,, has a tempreature we cant give calpol because we dont have the permision form signed?
this seems daft cause no parent can predict when their child will fall ill and if you dont give calpol for a tempreature or when a child is ill they could get worse,,, yes you would call the parent but some of mine are at least 1hour away and in that hour the child could have a februl convulsion .
when i say it seems daft I mean ofsted are being daft not those of you who have advised us on this.

sarah707
21-03-2011, 08:23 AM
so basicly what ofsted are saying is we can not give calpol without a medical sheet/permision form signed that day,,, so if a child comes to us perfectly well 7.30am and by lunch time is feeling unwell,, has a tempreature we cant give calpol because we dont have the permision form signed?
this seems daft cause no parent can predict when their child will fall ill and if you dont give calpol for a tempreature or when a child is ill they could get worse,,, yes you would call the parent but some of mine are at least 1hour away and in that hour the child could have a februl convulsion .
when i say it seems daft I mean ofsted are being daft not those of you who have advised us on this.

If a child has a history of febrile convulsions you will have a care plan in place with emergency permissions from parents to cover a rise in temperature.

If a child doesn't have a history and you are worried about possible convulsions you will be on the phone to NHS Direct, the doctor or the hospital who are all able to tell you to give medication / get an ambulance to the child.

If a child has a general rise in temperature without the risk of a convulsion you will be asking parents to come anyway and they will probably as part of that conversation give you permission which you can ask for written via text then sign when they arrive.

Hth :D

Mouse
21-03-2011, 09:12 AM
so basicly what ofsted are saying is we can not give calpol without a medical sheet/permision form signed that day,,, so if a child comes to us perfectly well 7.30am and by lunch time is feeling unwell,, has a tempreature we cant give calpol because we dont have the permision form signed?
this seems daft cause no parent can predict when their child will fall ill and if you dont give calpol for a tempreature or when a child is ill they could get worse,,, yes you would call the parent but some of mine are at least 1hour away and in that hour the child could have a februl convulsion .
when i say it seems daft I mean ofsted are being daft not those of you who have advised us on this.

I don't think it says that you have to have a form signed that day. It says that it has to be signed before you can give medication, but doesn't specifically say that day.

I think this is one of Ofsted's very grey areas and we each interpret the rules in slightly different ways. Even Ofsted can't tell you which is the right way!

I feel that I cover myself - I have prior written permission to give paracetamol (I don't call it calpol, because it isn't always), before I give it I check with parents what the last dose was and I get them to sign the form when they come to collect.

Kiddleywinks
21-03-2011, 11:26 AM
Sarah, or anyone else that knows of course ;)

Can I recall somewhere it says a text is NOT good enough written permission? Or am I getting confused lol

sarah707
21-03-2011, 11:32 AM
Sarah, or anyone else that knows of course ;)

Can I recall somewhere it says a text is NOT good enough written permission? Or am I getting confused lol

There is nothing written that I am aware of... does anyone know differently??

I would just say that in an emergency situation a text might be the only thing you can get.

And of course you put the child's health and well being before anything else.

As I have said previously if you cannot contact parents then an urgent call to someone qualified (doctor, NHS Direct etc) will give you a medical view on what the child needs - and if they say give medication you are covered by their professional judgement.

Anything you do that is different to requirements you would need to let Ofsted know later.

hth :D

Blaze
21-03-2011, 11:33 AM
I'm typing up a post - but I'm a slow typer!:rolleyes:

Blaze
21-03-2011, 11:53 AM
OK - It's as Sarah says &....Here we go!

Medication administration:

Parents should give at least the first 24 hours of new medicine to the child - adverse reasction to medication.
Information leaflet should accompany medication.
Do not administer medication if you do not know what it is & what it is for.
If medication is needed on a as & when basis ie "when required" ie an inhaler, it is v. important to record the judgement made as to why the medication has been given eg child wheezing. This must recorded in the child's file.
Dosage needs to be checked with parent & against label.
All medication should be clearely labelled / marked with the identity of the child.
Expirey & dispensed dates should be checked.
All medication in original container.
Time or course expired medication should be returned to parents or disposed off.
Permissions from parents should be time limited eg 28 days & then reviewed.
Clear procedure on what to do if too much or the wrong medication is given to the wrong cild.
Specific medication may require training ie insuline. Training - preferable for a medical practitioner to administer training, but parents can advise too (ONLY on their own child). ie epipens, inhalers - (V. grey area)!!!
In an emergency situation you CAN give medication without permission from parent if under instruction ie child has severe allergic reaction 999 oporator tells you to administer antihystamene if you have some on site.
You can ONLY give medication from your own stock in an emergency situation as described in the last point - not at any other time!
Medication handover statment in policy - ie directly to practitioner & not in bage...storage of medication (in & out) - RA!
Statement in policy re procedure if a child spits out / refuses medication (you won't give & will contact parent to advise medication not given.. & write down & get signed at collection).

HTH:)



PS OFSTED have a sheet they recently undated on this - I'm just looking for the link:thumbsup:

http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/Ofsted-home/Forms-and-guidance/Browse-all-by/Other/General/Factsheet-childcare-Giving-medication-to-children-in-registered-childcare/(language)/eng-GB

Blaze
21-03-2011, 12:03 PM
Sarah, or anyone else that knows of course ;)

Can I recall somewhere it says a text is NOT good enough written permission? Or am I getting confused lol

As a general rule of thumb a text in any situation is not really classed as written or to put it better an email or something types or hand written are "stronger" IYSWIM.
HTH:)

Mouse
21-03-2011, 12:06 PM
OK - It's as Sarah says &....Here we go!

Medication administration:

Parents should give at least the first 24 hours of new medicine to the child - adverse reasction to medication.
Information leaflet should accompany medication.
Do not administer medication if you do not know what it is & what it is for.
If medication is needed on a as & when basis ie "when required" ie an inhaler, it is v. important to record the judgement made as to why the medication has been given eg child wheezing. This must recorded in the child's file.
Dosage needs to be checked with parent & against label.
All medication should be clearely labelled / marked with the identity of the child.
Expirey & dispensed dates should be checked.
All medication in original container.
Time or course expired medication should be returned to parents or disposed off.
Permissions from parents should be time limited eg 28 days & then reviewed.
Clear procedure on what to do if too much or the wrong medication is given to the wrong cild.
Specific medication may require training ie insuline. Training - preferable for a medical practitioner to administer training, but parents can advise too (ONLY on their own child). ie epipens, inhalers - (V. grey area)!!!
In an emergency situation you CAN give medication without permission from parent if under instruction ie child has severe allergic reaction 999 oporator tells you to administer antihystamene if you have some on site.
You can ONLY give medication from your own stock in an emergency situation as described in the last point - not at any other time!
Medication handover statment in policy - ie directly to practitioner & not in bage...storage of medication (in & out) - RA!
Statement in policy re procedure if a child spits out / refuses medication (you won't give & will contact parent to advise medication not given.. & write down & get signed at collection).

HTH:)



PS OFSTED have a sheet they recently undated on this - I'm just looking for the link:thumbsup:

http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/Ofsted-home/Forms-and-guidance/Browse-all-by/Other/General/Factsheet-childcare-Giving-medication-to-children-in-registered-childcare/(language)/eng-GB

Where does that come from? Is it Ofsted guidance?

FussyElmo
21-03-2011, 12:13 PM
Thanks Blaze :thumbsup:

JCrakers
21-03-2011, 12:27 PM
I'm sticking to what i do :blush: ....parents sign a form when they start with me to give me permission for me to administer Calpol/Nurofen when needed.

If Ive read it right....if a child arrives in a morning and develops a high temp during the day and I cant get in contact with the parents because they might be in a meeting etc. then do I not give Calpol to bring their temp down? because I dont have permission on the day? Its rather confusing info as they just seem to change their minds every 5mins about things..:angry:

I think Mum would be pretty Pi****d off if her little one had a convulsion because I couldnt give the medication because I hadnt get her signature on that day.

As a Mum I would be furious

Also does it mean that I cant use my own Caplol out of the cupboard? What happens if the child develops a temp and Mum hasnt provided med???

becky x

Blaze
21-03-2011, 12:32 PM
Where does that come from? Is it Ofsted guidance?

It was taken from my Health & Safety Course Handout (specific to CM's).:thumbsup:

Jacko81
21-03-2011, 12:42 PM
Where does that come from? Is it Ofsted guidance?

This is exactly how i operate and when i had my inspection the inspector said it was spot on!!! :)

Mouse
21-03-2011, 12:42 PM
It was taken from my Health & Safety Course Handout (specific to CM's).:thumbsup:

Thanks Blaze. There are a few bits I'll add to my policy :thumbsup:

Did they cover things like paracetamol for a non-emergency? Did they give specific guidance on that (ie. a child has a temp, could do with Calpol, but it's not an emergency?)

Jacko81
21-03-2011, 12:43 PM
OK - It's as Sarah says &....Here we go!

Medication administration:

Parents should give at least the first 24 hours of new medicine to the child - adverse reasction to medication.
Information leaflet should accompany medication.
Do not administer medication if you do not know what it is & what it is for.
If medication is needed on a as & when basis ie "when required" ie an inhaler, it is v. important to record the judgement made as to why the medication has been given eg child wheezing. This must recorded in the child's file.
Dosage needs to be checked with parent & against label.
All medication should be clearely labelled / marked with the identity of the child.
Expirey & dispensed dates should be checked.
All medication in original container.
Time or course expired medication should be returned to parents or disposed off.
Permissions from parents should be time limited eg 28 days & then reviewed.
Clear procedure on what to do if too much or the wrong medication is given to the wrong cild.
Specific medication may require training ie insuline. Training - preferable for a medical practitioner to administer training, but parents can advise too (ONLY on their own child). ie epipens, inhalers - (V. grey area)!!!
In an emergency situation you CAN give medication without permission from parent if under instruction ie child has severe allergic reaction 999 oporator tells you to administer antihystamene if you have some on site.
You can ONLY give medication from your own stock in an emergency situation as described in the last point - not at any other time!
Medication handover statment in policy - ie directly to practitioner & not in bage...storage of medication (in & out) - RA!
Statement in policy re procedure if a child spits out / refuses medication (you won't give & will contact parent to advise medication not given.. & write down & get signed at collection).

HTH:)



PS OFSTED have a sheet they recently undated on this - I'm just looking for the link:thumbsup:

http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/Ofsted-home/Forms-and-guidance/Browse-all-by/Other/General/Factsheet-childcare-Giving-medication-to-children-in-registered-childcare/(language)/eng-GB

hahaha!!!!!!!! i quoted the wrong quote hahah!!!!
anyway as i said this is exactly how i operate and at my last inspection in dec 10 the inspector said i was spot on:)

Blaze
21-03-2011, 12:43 PM
I'm sticking to what i do :blush: ....parents sign a form when they start with me to give me permission for me to administer Calpol/Nurofen when needed.

If Ive read it right....if a child arrives in a morning and develops a high temp during the day and I cant get in contact with the parents because they might be in a meeting etc. then do I not give Calpol to bring their temp down? because I dont have permission on the day? Its rather confusing info as they just seem to change their minds every 5mins about things..:angry:

I think Mum would be pretty Pi****d off if her little one had a convulsion because I couldnt give the medication because I hadnt get her signature on that day.

As a Mum I would be furious

Also does it mean that I cant use my own Caplol out of the cupboard? What happens if the child develops a temp and Mum hasnt provided med???

becky x

Parents can provide you with a bottle for you to keep - or as has been said - you ring NHS direct / speak to a medical professional & if they advise you can give it from your own stock - this is covered under your seeking medical advise line.:thumbsup:

Blaze
21-03-2011, 12:48 PM
Thanks Blaze. There are a few bits I'll add to my policy :thumbsup:

Did they cover things like paracetamol for a non-emergency? Did they give specific guidance on that (ie. a child has a temp, could do with Calpol, but it's not an emergency?)

You would get parent to email permission & note why you want to give it in your records ie calpol - teething (rosy cheeks, temps). Alternatively you can have a blanket permission signed & then just get parent to sign your medication book on the day, but blanket permissions only last for a max of 28 days.

(All in the OFSTEd link in previous post).:)

Mouse
21-03-2011, 12:56 PM
You would get parent to email permission & note why you want to give it in your records ie calpol - teething (rosy cheeks, temps). Alternatively you can have a blanket permission signed & then just get parent to sign your medication book on the day, but blanket permissions only last for a max of 28 days.

(All in the OFSTEd link in previous post).:)

Thank you...again!

Where does it say that blanket permissions only last for 28 days? I get mine re-signed regularly, but not that often.

runningmummy
21-03-2011, 12:56 PM
I'm really confused now - should I have a blanket permission form for calpol/teething gel etc or not!!!

Blaze
21-03-2011, 01:10 PM
Thank you...again!

Where does it say that blanket permissions only last for 28 days? I get mine re-signed regularly, but not that often.

Taken from notes & OFSTEd guidance over counter shout be treated the same as prescribed medication - blanket permission should be time limited (ie a course of antibiotics) - max is 28 days.

As sarah has mentioned you may have an Individual care plan in place if a child has known medical needs & these should be reviewed regularly:)

HTH

Blaze
21-03-2011, 01:15 PM
I'm really confused now - should I have a blanket permission form for calpol/teething gel etc or not!!!

See next post of mine!

Mouse
21-03-2011, 01:37 PM
Taken from notes & OFSTEd guidance over counter shout be treated the same as prescribed medication - blanket permission should be time limited (ie a course of antibiotics) - max is 28 days.

As sarah has mentioned you may have an Individual care plan in place if a child has known medical needs & these should be reviewed regularly:)

HTH

I've read the Ofsted guidance several times & can't see where it says 28 days for anything. Am I looking at the wrong thing?

mushpea
21-03-2011, 02:08 PM
it says on page 3 of the guidance under over the counter medication

If you already have written permission to give a particular over-the-counter medication to a child, and you need to, you do not have to get written permission every time you give it. However, you may consider it good practice to ask the parent to sign the written record, which you must complete, to confirm that you have told them that you gave the agreed medication. This will allow you to prove you have let parents know that you gave the medication, as shown in the Statutory Framework.
Training for staff

this to me means that we can have a covering note

MrAnchovy
21-03-2011, 06:18 PM
Yes mushpea, that's what it says - and it doesn't say 28 days anywhere.

There is another bit that is worth quoting (although the whole document is only 5 pages long and well worth reading if you are in doubt):


There are three legal requirements that apply to all providers about giving medication to children. As a provider you must:


have, and put into practice, an effective policy on giving medicines to children in your setting, which must include effective systems to support children with medical needs

keep written records of all medicines you give to children, and tell parents about these records; and

get written permission from parents for every medicine before you give any medication.


[Later the last point is clarified by this:] If you already have written permission to give a particular over-the-counter medication to a child, and you need to, you do not have to get written permission every time you give it.



Now while it is a good idea to share examples of best practice, it is IMHO not a good result if the outcome is confusion over the legal requirements.

As I said before I resurrected this thread because I saw someone post (on another forum) that written permission (that is not given on the day) is USELESS :eek: It is not useless, it is a legal reqirement!

Reading the majority of the posts on the thread, this point doesn't really come over :(

Blaze
21-03-2011, 06:31 PM
Taken from the EYFS statutory guidance:

Medicines should not usually be administered unless they have been prescribed for that child by a doctor, dentist, nurse or pharmacist. Non-prescription medication e.g. pain and fever relief or teething
gel may be administered, but only with the prior written consent of the parent and only when there is a health reason to do so

Prior written consent but it has to have a time limit on it with regard to medication - the max is 28 days. Those with NCMA documentation can check their medication folders - it's written there - I don't know about MM sorry. But the time frame was specifically highlighted on my course.

So, you could knowing that a LO was teething write up paracetamol (Calpol) as you would a course of anti-biotics in your medication folder, but this would only be valid for that time & not 3 months later. If a LO has a sudden unexpected temp then you would need to get parent to email / ring NHS direct, as previously explained in other posts...hope that clarifies. I apologise if confusion caused - I was in a rush!

HTH

onceinabluemoon
21-03-2011, 07:13 PM
Can I just, with respect, say:

I know this thread is about gaining permission rather than using paracetamol as such but I am horrified that as paediatric first aiders the childminders in this thread are all reaching for the calpol instead of thinking about our training!

If a child is in danger of having a febrile convulsion or is in danger of overheating / having a high temperature we should surely be following our first aid training and cooling the child by removing layers of clothing and sponging with tepid water.

Paracetamol is a chemical preparation and, although it tastes of strawberries (!?!?) and sweetness, it is not nice stuff. For a start it strips paint/varnish when spilt, goodness knows what it does to the child's insides!!

All medications have a 'trade off' and we should surely avoid them if at all possible, especially if there are physical ways of dealing with an illness (eg by cooling with sponge and water). Older minders on here will no doubt remember that before calpol and the like was invented we used to use a cool flannel and remove clothing. (Sorry ladies and gents for the 'older' tag ;) )

If you are unable to bring a temperature down in this way, and the child has a convulsion seek medical help / call an ambulance! If they advise you to give calpol so be it but at least you would have tried. After a febrile convulsion we are advised to call an ambulance anyway as there may be underlying medical reasons for the convulsion.

Obviously pain avoidance is a completely different kettle of fish...

I'll get off my soap box now. I don't mean to offend, I'm just really concerned that in this chemical reliant world we live in all we think about is giving calpol and forget all the other things we know how to do.

One day there is going to be research that tells us the harm we are doing to these children (the same as there is now for giving children aspirin which was the drug of choice when my eldest were little), until then, please lets use paracetamol/brufen with care.

Big hugs and sloppy kisses ;)

MrAnchovy
21-03-2011, 08:04 PM
You raise some very valid points onceinabluemoon. I assume that your medicines policy says that you do not agree with the routine administration of medicines for minor ailments and so you will not do this?

As long as you write that in your policy, together with how you do treat minor fevers, severe fevers (I believe that 38+ degrees medical advice is that paracetamol should be given so you would need to cover that somehow), teething etc. and explain your policy to parents you are complying with the compulsory requirements.

mushpea
22-03-2011, 06:54 AM
surley the part that says
get written permission from parents for every medicine before you give any medication.

means get the permision before hand and by getting a signed covering note for over the counter meds when the child starts with us and maybe reviewing this with the parent every month that would be our written permision for the medication before we give it?
thats how I under stand it when using both statments about it

Pauline
22-03-2011, 07:28 AM
Yes mushpea, that's what it says - and it doesn't say 28 days anywhere.


No but this is where I think you are misunderstanding what it is like to be a childminder Mr A! :)

Blaze doesn't say it is in the guidance, it is from training she did.

This is the problem for childminders, we have to dance to many tunes and rarely do the tunes sound the same.

Ofsted have their guidance (although it always annoys me that the guidance is called a factsheet, is it fact or guidance? :rolleyes:) Anyway, we get told different things from different professionals and it is up to us to try to make from it what we can.

A prime example is food hygiene, an Ofsted inspector will often come out and say it is fine for a dog to sleep/eat in the kitchen, that is their guidance, however along comes Mr. Environmental Health and in some areas he will say "No dogs in kitchens, get them outside in a kennel" yet other areas, he will agree with Ofsted. (See other threads on this subject!)

Life as a childminder is hard when trying to interpret any rules, we are left to our own devices and yes, I do agree when you say that you should not believe all you read on forums, but we do our best to give all the information we come across as we wend out way through this merry life of childminding.

This is what Blaze has done, although we have the Ofsted guidance on medication, health training are saying other things which is where Blaze got the 28 days from.

It is so difficult when one area contradicts another. :(

MrAnchovy
22-03-2011, 03:07 PM
I know what I want to say, but I am not sure how to say it.

MrAnchovy
22-03-2011, 03:51 PM
I do see what you are saying Pauline (and others)..

I guess my point is that if you don't follow the law you can be prosecuted and if you don't follow Ofsted guidance they can cancel your registration so these are the second and third most important things you must take into account (the most important thing is of course the safety of your mindees).

Best practice is important, particularly in the event of a claim arising from an accident where it is important to show that you did everything that a competant childminder should be expected to have done, but it definitely comes after the law and Ofsted guidance.

To clear up another confusion, 'guidance' includes everything that Ofsted publish on their web site under 'Forms and guidance (http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/Ofsted-home/Forms-and-guidance)', which includes the factsheet we are talking about. Information or opinion given to you by an Ofsted inspector (or anyone else for that matter) is NOT guidance, and you cannot rely on it as a defence for not following the law or published guidance.

That is why my posts very often contain a quote from and a link to a document published on a government web site: it is not because I have forgotten what the document says or I am too lazy to check :D it is so that you have the official published source of my information and can therefore rely on it.