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moogster1a
07-11-2010, 08:57 AM
After reading on here about someone getting pulled up on their inspection for not having individual towels for each child I decided to see if there was any justification for this.
As far as I can work out, hands are dried after washing them so passing on of any infections etc. is the most minimal it will have been all day ( taking account a full day's playing


between little ones and plenty of lo's huggin each other etc.).
So, I got in touch with environmental health who totally agreed with me. I spoke to one of the top bods who said that unless a child had impetigo or D and V he could see no reason for it.
Towels should be changed every day, but they don't need one each. He said they find that some inspectors just latch onto things llike this without thinking it out in terms of both practicality and justification.
So, he kindly emailed this that I can wave in the face of the next pedantic inspector .
Just to confirm details of our conversation. In my opinion I would not consider it necessary for each child to have a clean towel daily. It would seem excessive as the child will have already washed their hands – supervised. As long as the normal common sense applies and that a clean towel is provided daily and as often is required would be sufficient.



The only proviso would be in cases were a child may have a skin condition then it would be advisable that towels are separate. It could be that OFSTED have an amended standard then you are at liberty to challenge the basis on which that standard has been arrived at. If no standard then the inspector should be able to justify the reasons for their request. I am not aware of any information from the Health Protection Agency advocating such measures as you say are being asked for by Ofsted.

sarah707
07-11-2010, 09:18 AM
Thank you for sharing that information.

I would just like to caution members that hand washing is something your Ofsted inspector will probably want to watch happening and it is an action on many inspection reports that individual towels (paper or material) are provided for children to use to prevent cross contamination.

While the EHO who spoke with the member above may have had a more common sense approach to the issue (and the viewpoint expressed above is certainly more environmentally friendly), it is not the EHO who gives us our grading or writes our inspection reports.

:D

Hebs
07-11-2010, 09:19 AM
i can totally see where your coming from

why have individual towels when they then share toys? :laughing: :laughing:

IndigoMoon
07-11-2010, 09:21 AM
That's very interesting thank you.

If only all the environmental health agencies worked from the same sheet we would be well away...

Although as said above it is not them who give us our grades so we'd best continue to do what ofsted wants or risk being graded down

Daftbat
07-11-2010, 09:27 AM
I agree - I find it completely unnecessary and refuse to provide individual towels. My only concession is to provide individual paper towel sheets in the bathroom which can be used. Its a case of us jumping through hoops for no real reason.

moogster1a
07-11-2010, 09:28 AM
I agree with caution Sarah, but armed with a bit of common sense from the experts, we can then ask the inspector exactly how they think individual towels prevent cross infection. My guess is that they wouldn't have a clue.( because they don't prevent it!!) It's just something they parrot!
saves me buying 3 dozen new towels as well.

Hebs
07-11-2010, 09:34 AM
:huh: i was never asked about it at my last inspection

FussyElmo
07-11-2010, 09:39 AM
I was queried over it and got it down as an action - now they all use paper kitchen towels :thumbsup:

Pipsqueak
07-11-2010, 09:39 AM
I have to say that my inspector never watched, asked or commented upon.
I have indiviudal paper towels but the kids always use the normal towel.
The towel gets changed daily!

candy cat
07-11-2010, 09:40 AM
problem is,is that Ofsted don't all sing from the same hymn sheet.....I was told by a friend who had same Mrs o so I knew she would be hot in this area....but i know loads that don't have seperate towels.

At the moment mine have there own towel in kitchen as to young for bathroom so will have rethink as don't want 4 towels hanging up and not touching!:eek:

IndigoMoon
07-11-2010, 09:44 AM
At the moment mine have there own towel in kitchen as to young for bathroom so will have rethink as don't want 4 towels hanging up and not touching!:eek:

I have a small basket of flannels in the bathroom. They wash their hands, use one flannel to dry and then pop it in the washing basket for wash. No risk of cross contamination, no risk of me drying my face in something icky and everybody is happy. The towels and tea towels from the rest of the house get washes daily so it costs no more water etc to throw a few extra flannels in.

mushpea
07-11-2010, 09:49 AM
I do have individual hand towels, well, they are flannels as no room for that many towels but they are for drying hands,, anyway the main reason i did it was because i had one child who couldnt be bothered to wash their hands properly, they would go in,, turn the tap on and off maybe wetting their hands then wip their dirty hands on the towel which was great after a painting or cooking acitivity!!!!!:angry:
anyway at the time only had 4 children so I put up 4 seperate towels then when this child saw that her towel was dirty and the others werent and realised that she had a dirty towel to dry her hands on all day she soon learnt to wash them properly and this has worked with children since then too.
Also a child may be developing or just developed a skin problem or conjunictivitis whilst in your care that day and therefore you are protecting the rest of the children
however I can see the orginaly point that it is ridiculous when all the kids hug and play and touch toys and each other anyway and now that i have 9 children on the books i am running out of room to put their towels!

the happy house
07-11-2010, 09:52 AM
On my 1st pre-reg visit a few years ago, my inspector banged on so much about individual towels that I got some.
The children loved it. We had a row of brightly coloured towels in the bathroom. They loved having their own little bag on the hook too, with their own toothbrush and flannel. It actually encouraged them to wash their hands!
When I had my graded inspection, I had a different inspector who was so impressed she was still singing my praises about it when she left.
I had to chuckle. I mean, ok, it ticked their box and the children liked it.... but surely there are much more important aspects of childcare for them to be concerned about. I think alot has to do with what their latest training has been on, and what their latest 'buzz' theme is.

rickysmiths
07-11-2010, 10:02 AM
I can see where you and the environmental health guy are coming from and it sometimes does seem excessive. I agree with Sarah though unfortunately we are inspected and graded by Ofsted.

I know using towels can be a pain. However I prefer towels to paper, I think they are more homely. I also think having their own towel teaches the child they are an individual and develops independence as they learn to remember which is theirs. Like they probably have to at home.

I have never felt the need to have dozens of hooks in my bathroom or now my downstair toilet. I have a towel rail radiator and we put them on there , then if I have visitors I take them of, fold them up and pop them in the cupboard under the sink. In my old bathroom I had a towel rail hanger on the radiator for them. It could be removed in the evening and at weekends very easily. I even put the childrens soap away in the evenings and weekends!

I am a great one for my home being my home. I now, since having a large extention this summer, I have a playroom so I can't put that away!! I still have all my Ofsted notice boards on picture hooks so they come down and go in the shed and a picture goes up in their place. This weekend I have updated the photos of the children on their coat hooks, I have one that the photo slide into a frame by each hook. I have done a set of Christmas Pictures I can put in when I'm off duty so their photos aren't on show!! The playroom is tidyed into Trofast Boxes and onto Billy Book shelves, all the big loose items Kitchens, dolls houses, dolls buggies etc go in the shed if I'm entertaining.


Are you a member of NCMA because armed with your email the way to perhaps have the matter addressed is to take it to your next NCMA area Forum meeting and give it to your National Policy Forum Members to take forward and see if NCMA will investigate it with Ofsted and get an answer. This is one reason I am a member of NCMA. The Policy Forum does investigate querries from members and things are changed as a result. Of course they do not happen instantly, it sometimes takes a while.

sarah707
07-11-2010, 12:02 PM
Are you a member of NCMA because armed with your email the way to perhaps have the matter addressed is to take it to your next NCMA area Forum meeting and give it to your National Policy Forum Members to take forward and see if NCMA will investigate it with Ofsted and get an answer. This is one reason I am a member of NCMA. The Policy Forum does investigate querries from members and things are changed as a result. Of course they do not happen instantly, it sometimes takes a while.

That is an excellent idea for the OP to follow up! :thumbsup:

Please let us know if you get any feedback. :D

BlondeMoment
07-11-2010, 12:20 PM
I have individual flannels for wiping sticky hands and faces after a meal and they go straight into the machine after each use. As for toileting, there is one bathroom towel that we all use and thats it. I don't have the room in my bathroom to hang up 4 odd towels. Ofsted weren't interested in any of that at all. They knew we were all going upstiars to wash hands for lunch but she didn't follow us or anything.

It's awful that there seems to be no set standard. All depends on your nspector which just isn't fair. I was lucky

rachelle
07-11-2010, 12:30 PM
you wash hands? :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :laughing:

flannels here and then in the wash machine after, not keen on sharing my towels with mindees :laughing:

BlondeMoment
07-11-2010, 12:42 PM
you wash hands? :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :laughing:

flannels here and then in the wash machine after, not keen on sharing my towels with mindees :laughing:

lol well, we don't always. Depends what they've been doing beofre lunch lol

welshcake
07-11-2010, 01:48 PM
i was recently at some training session and they couldnt stress enough how important it is to make sure you have seperate towels for each child as yr ofsted inspectors are big on this.

So even thou i agree with what you are saying i am just gonna make sure i tick every box and jump thru every hoop.x

blue bear
07-11-2010, 03:05 PM
I know a childminder who had her inspection over two day when the funding inspections were seperate to the care ones (last round of inspections)
On the first day for the care inspection, childminder had only one towel out, inspector said if she providied seperate towels when she came back the next day she would ignore the fact children were sharing a towel and awarded the childminder an outstanding.

Bending the rules or using common sense?

Pipsqueak
07-11-2010, 03:18 PM
i was recently at some training session and they couldnt stress enough how important it is to make sure you have seperate towels for each child as yr ofsted inspectors are big on this.

So even thou i agree with what you are saying i am just gonna make sure i tick every box and jump thru every hoop.x

The thing is if we jump through all the hoops all the time and never challenge anything - the same ridiculous things will keep cropping up. Oh lets see what the new thing we can get people to do.

Now whilst I sort of agree about having clean towels etc - its still no good is it when half the children - and lets face kids of most ages are NAFF at hygiene are sneezing, snotting, poking, licking, picking and spreading, fiddling, twiddling, coughing, spluttering and generally SHARING their germs, ranges of bodily fluids (and occsionally more solid stuff) and mucus with us anyway - so unless we are going to start issuing children with protective suits the minute they walk through our doors then the issue of separate towels is a bit of a moot one imo.

Andrea08
07-11-2010, 04:12 PM
The thing is if we jump through all the hoops all the time and never challenge anything - the same ridiculous things will keep cropping up. Oh lets see what the new thing we can get people to do.

Now whilst I sort of agree about having clean towels etc - its still no good is it when half the children - and lets face kids of most ages are NAFF at hygiene are sneezing, snotting, poking, licking, picking and spreading, fiddling, twiddling, coughing, spluttering and generally SHARING their germs, ranges of bodily fluids (and occsionally more solid stuff) and mucus with us anyway - so unless we are going to start issuing children with protective suits the minute they walk through our doors then the issue of separate towels is a bit of a moot one imo.

PMSL well put Pipsqueak made me laugh

miffy
07-11-2010, 07:03 PM
The thing is if we jump through all the hoops all the time and never challenge anything - the same ridiculous things will keep cropping up. Oh lets see what the new thing we can get people to do.

Now whilst I sort of agree about having clean towels etc - its still no good is it when half the children - and lets face kids of most ages are NAFF at hygiene are sneezing, snotting, poking, licking, picking and spreading, fiddling, twiddling, coughing, spluttering and generally SHARING their germs, ranges of bodily fluids (and occsionally more solid stuff) and mucus with us anyway - so unless we are going to start issuing children with protective suits the minute they walk through our doors then the issue of separate towels is a bit of a moot one imo.

That made me laugh Pip!

I changed to seperate towels for the children after reading threads on here.

My inspector did accompany me and the children to the cloakroom and watch our hand-washing routine and it was commented on in my report.

So I'm sticking with it for now especially as the children are used to it!

Miffy xx

babs
07-11-2010, 07:18 PM
i use flannels they each have their own hook with their name over the top stuck to my shower door (suction hooks) these i take down at weekends ( if i remember lol) i change towels each night throw them in the washer with other flannels that have been used for faces at snack and meal times etc..

i am funny with towels and tea towels find them on the floor they go in wash see a fly on them they go in the wash.. i change my bathroom towel upstairs family room in a morning before i use and again at night before i go to bed like i said im strange when it comes to towels hubby goes mental cus he can never find the one hes just took out the drawer:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

nokidshere
07-11-2010, 07:39 PM
The thing is if we jump through all the hoops all the time and never challenge anything - the same ridiculous things will keep cropping up. Oh lets see what the new thing we can get people to do.

Now whilst I sort of agree about having clean towels etc - its still no good is it when half the children - and lets face kids of most ages are NAFF at hygiene are sneezing, snotting, poking, licking, picking and spreading, fiddling, twiddling, coughing, spluttering and generally SHARING their germs, ranges of bodily fluids (and occsionally more solid stuff) and mucus with us anyway - so unless we are going to start issuing children with protective suits the minute they walk through our doors then the issue of separate towels is a bit of a moot one imo.

My feelings exactly! I provid eone single clean towel daily in the bathroom for all to use and Mrs O was quite happy with that.

funemnx
07-11-2010, 07:39 PM
I used to get my new lo's to decorate their own new flannel for handrying. They loved doing it, everyone was individual and we still do decorate flannel for an activity but I have 14 children on my books - can you imagine how many hooks I'd have to have in my bathroom?????? I leave a clean handtowel out every day - and for Ofsted I have paper towels in a basket ;)

FussyElmo
07-11-2010, 07:45 PM
TBF to Mrs O when she picked me up on it she did said that it was something her "manager" would expect to see in the report so she had to mention it.

margaret
07-11-2010, 08:05 PM
I dont agree that individual towels are nonsense.

The idea of individual towels is to educate children from very early age good hygiene practices,discussing how germs are spread,reducing risk of cross infection etc.I used to work in the community where families used each others bath towels/hand towels and couldnt understand how everyone had herpes ,verruccas etc.Towels thrown on floor,across bed,bannister ,radiator and no idea that radiators,bannisters etc need wiped down on regular basis ,its a bit like would you use same tissue to wipe every childs nose ,and i have seen some childminders do this or take a bib or muslin across childs mouth nose and eyes and then cannot understand how child has conjunctivitis.Also wiping door handles - how many people do you see coming out of public loos and they dont wash their hands - what does this teach children If we educate the children they will hopefully start educating the adults.If boys wash their hands they have more often than not pulled up their zips,how many men walk out of the loo doing their zips up ,adjusting themselves - imagine those filthy hands touching you .

Mookins
07-11-2010, 08:12 PM
id be to scared to wave anything at OFSTED inspectors other than my hand when they finally leave:D

i have a big basket of flannels one used they go in a hamper to be washed, if that isnt good enough then...they can come round and arrange everything to fit in my house cos im :eek: running out of space

xxx

Penny1959
08-11-2010, 02:54 AM
I use the sperate hand towel system (flannels used once then put in washing basket) My flannels came from the pound shop and were 6 for £1 so not a great expense.

Anyway I though I would relate this story to explain why I use this system.

During 2002 I was going through my NVQ 3 and the assessor was visiting - (at the time I used the flannel for each child on a peg system) Each child had their own colour and even the youngest knew which was theirs.

So on this day mindee age 3.5 and competant independant toileter went upstairs - I knew she had washed hands as heard tap running and knew she had flushed toilet as heard that.

Assessor then asked to use toilet - when she came down she said ' Does 'c' use the yellow towel? 'yes' I replied - how do you know?' Well she said it is now yellow and brown!'

Time to review systems I thought - as towels on pegs did touch each other and another child could have touched 'c's' towel when reaching for theirs.

Also posed questions about just when is a child able to wash hands unsupervised.

My evaluation was that 'c' could wash hands properly - but on this occasion did not because did not want to 'miss' anything while assessor in setting - and this could happen again and so I changed my system.

Penny :)

kindredspirits
08-11-2010, 07:59 AM
Now I am totally confused - at my lastest inspection Mrs O bought up the subject of hand washing and I said I didn't have any papertowels etc.... her words were you can have ONE TOWEL for ALL THE CHILDREN and change it daily - so thats what I've been doing!!!!! :rolleyes: :panic:

I give up!!

mama2three
08-11-2010, 08:31 AM
I use paper towels , mainly because on the hpa poster there is advice on handwashing at the bottom and this is what is recommended.
The boys I have at the moment can wash their hands if I stand over them , but left to themselves it is a quick wet and the towel does the work! Id be forever trying to get paint stains and mud ( or worse!) out of my towels! It is something we're working on but I cant stand over them every time.

Chatterbox Childcare
08-11-2010, 09:28 AM
I agree with caution Sarah, but armed with a bit of common sense from the experts, we can then ask the inspector exactly how they think individual towels prevent cross infection. My guess is that they wouldn't have a clue.( because they don't prevent it!!) It's just something they parrot!
saves me buying 3 dozen new towels as well.

What about when you wash and dry their faces? I use wet wipes but not everyone does.

Children go to my bathroom and use hand gel and not soap and water and therefore no towels needed

If we want things changed go to the NCMA and lobby for this and if enough people bring it up at the regional meetings it will be put on the agenda

louise
08-11-2010, 10:56 AM
Hi. I'm guessing that it was my inpection your refering to. I have got to phone about the nappy changing and gloves so will ask this as well.

Noomie
08-11-2010, 06:21 PM
I've been pondering this. I don't want to use individual towels as I think it's a bit nonsensical. My husband isn't too keen on drilling lots of hook holes in a small room. Also, Child A gives Child B a slobbery kiss. They then go to wash hands for lunch and after a supervised wash, Child A and B have separate hand towels to prevent cross contamination. What? Doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. I also don't have enough room in my down stairs loo to store a basket of flannels even though I think this is a great solution to loads of hooks. I may decide on the radiator idea as there's a radiator outside my d.s. loo. But the point about towels touching each other is a great one and on a radiator rack, they will be doing this. I keep going round in circles about this issue and it does my head in. Of course I want a Ofsted to rate me highly. But jumping through hoops just for the sake of it?

keeks
08-11-2010, 06:31 PM
I've bought flannels too, from IKEA, really lovely in different colours. I bought some cheap suction cup hooks and stuck them on the tiles in the bath room.

I agree with the common sense but would rather be safe than sorry when inspection day comes.

xx

The Juggler
08-11-2010, 07:38 PM
The thing is if we jump through all the hoops all the time and never challenge anything - the same ridiculous things will keep cropping up. Oh lets see what the new thing we can get people to do.

Now whilst I sort of agree about having clean towels etc - its still no good is it when half the children - and lets face kids of most ages are NAFF at hygiene are sneezing, snotting, poking, licking, picking and spreading, fiddling, twiddling, coughing, spluttering and generally SHARING their germs, ranges of bodily fluids (and occsionally more solid stuff) and mucus with us anyway - so unless we are going to start issuing children with protective suits the minute they walk through our doors then the issue of separate towels is a bit of a moot one imo.

AND you could have a row of individual towels, but how can ensure that the right child uses the right one or doesn't touch all the others whilst she/s doing the handwashing. I have one clean towel for hand-drying. I use flannels for wiping children's hands and faces after meals. They have one use, then are washed.

Pipsqueak
08-11-2010, 07:51 PM
AND you could have a row of individual towels, but how can ensure that the right child uses the right one or doesn't touch all the others whilst she/s doing the handwashing. I have one clean towel for hand-drying. I use flannels for wiping children's hands and faces after meals. They have one use, then are washed.

Each child gets a separate flannel each day and its changed more often if it gets really manky during th day.

Actually I am just going to get a decontamination unit and shove them all in there every couple of hours.:laughing:

glitzygal
08-11-2010, 08:17 PM
I have paper towels, and the mindee use them,

i put my towels in the eve and take them out in the morning, its easier and less washing for me, lol:laughing:

manjay
08-11-2010, 08:46 PM
We use paper towels here. I don't really want to be drying my hands on something the children have used:rolleyes:

jane5
08-11-2010, 09:02 PM
What about when you wash and dry their faces? I use wet wipes but not everyone does.

Children go to my bathroom and use hand gel and not soap and water and therefore no towels needed

Is mrs O happy with this? I use wet wipes all of the time with my dd even when we are out in cafe's I use wet wipes to wipe high chairs tables etc because they are so convenient.

By the time you have used electric, wear and tear on washer and powder and softener I don't think wet wipes are expensive.

Can you use hand gel instead of soap and water? Its a big drama when my 2yr old dd washes her hands, water everywhere, wet clothes and floods of tears when I turn the tap off.

I know its good practice to get her used to washing her hands but I like to pick my battles with her and at the moment this is really a big battle.

The Juggler
08-11-2010, 09:42 PM
Each child gets a separate flannel each day and its changed more often if it gets really manky during th day.

Actually I am just going to get a decontamination unit and shove them all in there every couple of hours.:laughing:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

appleblossom
08-11-2010, 09:52 PM
I have recently bought some toddler wipes for childrens' hands and faces for when we are out and about. At the toddler group & childminder drop in we go to there is just one damp grotty towel to dry our hands on in the loo/washroom. I hate it, so I wipe my hands on these wipes, and the LO's. Also useful for messy faces.

http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/sainsburys-price-comparison/Nappy_Accessories/Sainsburys_Little_Ones_Antibacterial_Toddler_Wipes _50.html

louise
08-11-2010, 10:40 PM
A lady phoned me back on the way home from school. sShe feels that as i have a low amount of children it isn't a mus.t She wouldn't email me to say that as tomorrow she may change her mind!!! and also just like Ofsted inspectors someone else may say its a must! She is going to speak to the lady that deals with nurserys and email me if she says different which i guess she will as she is use to nurserys. So again a different answer.

Noomie
08-11-2010, 11:09 PM
What about 'home from home environment'? In what home does anyone have a separate hand towel for each family member? Or change the hand towel daily? Or use paper towels? Should I put one of those new blow the skin off your hands, hand driers in my d.s. loo? ;) And as a family, my OH, DD and I don't always get the same illnesses despite using the same hand towels.

I'm not suggesting we don't change hand towels regularly and we do have more than our own families using towels, I just feel it's H&S gone mad again using separate hand towels.

Kids eat dirt, insects, food picked up off the ground, bogies, etc, etc. Should we put them in a bubble? I honestly think that the more 'sterile' you try and keep a child's environment, the more they get sick as they do not build immunity to things.

Penny1959
09-11-2010, 04:07 AM
I think (as with most things) it is up to us to explain why we do what we do and how we keep children safe.

My previous post explained why I use the 'use and wash' towel system BUT that is my choice - no one 'told' me to and I didn't read anywhere that one must use seperate towels.

Those of you who prefer to use one towel - if you are happy about that - then do it.

I know of someone who uses one towel and is graded outstanding and someone who uses seperate towels who is graded good.

The benefit of reading all the posts on this subject is it gives lots of different views, which helps those considering what to do, to weigh up the pro's and cons - and then to make up their own mind on what will work in their setting.

This is why I love childminding there is not one 'right' way but many ways that are equally as suitable and as my own boss - I decide.

It is clear from the posts that lots of you have decided what is right for your setting - and those of you still debating with yourself - well don't worry if towel use will be a deciding factor in your inspection grade - as it won't - what will is the ability to explain why what ever system you use, works for you.

Penny :)

Playmate
09-11-2010, 09:13 AM
I think (as with most things) it is up to us to explain why we do what we do and how we keep children safe.

My previous post explained why I use the 'use and wash' towel system BUT that is my choice - no one 'told' me to and I didn't read anywhere that one must use seperate towels.

Those of you who prefer to use one towel - if you are happy about that - then do it.

I know of someone who uses one towel and is graded outstanding and someone who uses seperate towels who is graded good.

The benefit of reading all the posts on this subject is it gives lots of different views, which helps those considering what to do, to weigh up the pro's and cons - and then to make up their own mind on what will work in their setting.

This is why I love childminding there is not one 'right' way but many ways that are equally as suitable and as my own boss - I decide.

It is clear from the posts that lots of you have decided what is right for your setting - and those of you still debating with yourself - well don't worry if towel use will be a deciding factor in your inspection grade - as it won't - what will is the ability to explain why what ever system you use, works for you.

Penny :)

Here here Penny!

I think you have to look at you own individual circumstances. Like pip said I will not jump through ofsted's hoops. If you can expalin the reasoning behind a decision that should be acceptable. I personally have a paper towel dispenser. This is because hubby and I work together and are running a larger setting than one CM working on their own. We do not have room for individual towels niether do I have time for constant washing (with 3 teenagers I have enough already :D ). The paper towels go through the business as a direct expense and I feel works out cheaper for us. the used towels are recycled. This of course is my choice and would not expect anyone else to follow my practice.
I am an ex nurse and can be a bit ott when it comes to infection control, however I will say in 17 years I have never caught anything off a mindee (other than a cold) and to my knowledge the same can be said for my mindees to mindees. But maybe I'm just lucky! :D