advice please, cm breaking the rules!

[jumpinjen]

Hi,

I encountered a cm this morning with four children under 5 in tow.... I asked her about her variation request and how quickly it came through to which she just looked blank. I re-worded and asked again, and she told me that her certificate says she can have four under fives and that it's said that for years since she last asked for it to cover one family.

I suggested that she confirm that with ofsted as usually a variation ends once the child leaves the setting.

Another cm arrived later and was really quite cross about the whole thing as she had spoken to this cm 10 months ago about the same thing when she attended a cm christmas party with 5 under 5's at the same time. She said she wanted them all to enjoy it and several people made it clear to her that she couldn't ignore her reg certificate to suit herself and that if over her numbers then her insurance was invalid.

the same was said to her today, but she seemed unbothered and not particularly interested in calling ofsted to confirm the reg details.

I'm left wondering what to do to follow it up or should I just leave it?

Advice please!!

jen x

[SammyM]

Sorry, but I'd make that call.

[sandy64]

firstly i want to say i understand how you feel as i no some one doing the same but becareful if you report her it may come back on you if she finds out it was you its such a delicate issue you no her do you think she would bad mouth your reputation??
could you look on ofsted website and read her report? it will say when and how many her variation was granted.
i hope she gets stopped as its not fare on others take care:)

[blue bear]

it needs to be dealt with she must know it doesn't just go from one family to another, bet she was under her numbers for her inspection!

Have you an understanding development worker who would pay her a visit?
Other than that it's over to Ofsted, it's not like she'll loose the right to Childmind, they'll just tell her its not on and ask her to comfirm she is within her numbers

[flowerpots]

i would make the call! i wouldnt mind if she knew it was me because i wouldnt want to be associated with a cm who did things like this! :-)

[jumpinjen]

I hadn't thought of my development worker. She is coming tomorrow.... and she's an ex-ofsted inspector (quite recently). What should I say though, or how can I start it?

I don't know the other cm that well really.... she's been in and out of the cm group for about a year and I've not got that favourable an opinion of her tbh, but don't want to crash and burn her just because she's not my best mate, but on the other hand I don't think it's on and I do think she knows what she's doing.

jen x

[linda2girls]

You could just say to your DW that some of the other childminders have been commenting on how many children she has with her and you're worried that someone may report her.

Linda

[Mookins]

I hadn't thought of my development worker. She is coming tomorrow.... and she's an ex-ofsted inspector (quite recently). What should I say though, or how can I start it?

I don't know the other cm that well really.... she's been in and out of the cm group for about a year and I've not got that favourable an opinion of her tbh, but don't want to crash and burn her just because she's not my best mate, but on the other hand I don't think it's on and I do think she knows what she's doing.

jen x

if you dont want to SAY anything....you could always write it down as an anonymous (sp) person...perhaps slip it into your DW folder...or say oooh look at this...wink wink!!!

xxx

[PixiePetal]

A friend of mine had a certificate saying she could have 2 under 1s, no time scale was given, not child specific - has been registered for years and it was only when she had an inspection under EYFS that it was removed and has to now be applied for individually.

How long has she been registered and could this be a similar thing?

Just a thought :huh:

[jumpinjen]

A friend of mine had a certificate saying she could have 2 under 1s, no time scale was given, not child specific - has been registered for years and it was only when she had an inspection under EYFS that it was removed and has to now be applied for individually.

How long has she been registered and could this be a similar thing?

Just a thought :huh:

I wondered that too, not sure when she was last registered but she was given the ehads up last december to check it out and she still hasn't so I'm wondering if she's trying to stay below the radar to earn more (has recently taken on 3 new children after old ones went to school)

might just have a word as a concerned person and let her check it out.

Thanks guys, Jen x

[Helcatt]

I'm in a similar situation. There is a woman that that I see regularly at groups and she is always over numbers and always different children, so not a variation for a set child.

She regularly sits on her backside, drinking coffee and letting the kids roam free, and then complaining when other people don't see where missing shoes are etc etc

I also noticed how one of her mindees attending the group with his mum on the day of her inspection - she normally has 4 under 5s

I have been muttering about reporting her for a while but am worried about possible repercussions

HX

[jumpinjen]

If you haven't said anyhting to her (like i did) then there prob won't be any repercussions.... if her numbers are fine then there isn't a problem really is there? But it is frustrating to see people working the system... i wonder if they realise that if a serious accident happened that their PL insurance wouldn't cover the payout and they would lose their home and be bankrupt paying the damages?

Also, the family wouldn't get the payout they needed either and are prob paying in good faith thinking that they are registered and insured corectly

jen x

[rickysmiths]

Just be absolutly sure before you pick up the phone. I was registered for 4 under 5s for two years and I had different combinations of children through the week. It was all oked by Ofsted but it could have looked as if I was over numbers to someone who didn't know I had permission.

Especially on the school drop off and pick up when I had the 4 under 5s and 2 from Reception one who was only just 4 (late Aust B'day) but because he was in full time school counted in the over 5s group.

[Beetlejuice]

I'm in a similar situation with a newly registered minder who swears blind Ofsted said she could have 4 under 5 - which I seriously doubt because she has only just registered and has 2 over 5's children of her own. I think she is confused in that she *can* have four children but only 3 under 5. She is regularly seen out with too many children under 5. Another childminder has reported her for something else (maliciously I believe) but she hasn't been pulled up on being over her numbers as she's yet to get caught. We've all tried politely to talk to her about it but she continues to flout the rules. She doesn't care for siblings and I genuinely believe that she wouldn't be given a variation as she's been minding just a few months.

My head says report her but like others here I am worried about repercussions - we live in a small town and everyone knows all the local minders and I don't want my reputation ruined.

[jumpinjen]

Just be absolutly sure before you pick up the phone. I was registered for 4 under 5s for two years and I had different combinations of children through the week. It was all oked by Ofsted but it could have looked as if I was over numbers to someone who didn't know I had permission.

Especially on the school drop off and pick up when I had the 4 under 5s and 2 from Reception one who was only just 4 (late Aust B'day) but because he was in full time school counted in the over 5s group.

Thanks rickysmiths, I'm aware of this and that's why I'm hesitating. Will go softly softly rather than an all out report to ofsted.

thanks, Jen x

[Mykidsrock]

If you report the CM as she is doing nothing wrong then that's fine. But if you dont report her and she is, then she is not insured and what if something did happen?

I had a variation before and it was clearly stated on my certificate that the variation applied for the named child of variation requested on such and such a date and that this variation ended once that child left my care or started full time education.

Personally, I would raise it with Ofsted. It is down to them to investigate and ascertain whether she is doing something wrong. If she is not and she is within her numbers, variations etc then she has no need to worry and you can rest assured that she is and can provide the care they all require and not just increase her bank balance by working beyond her means.

xxx Jess

[miffy]

Hi,

I encountered a cm this morning with four children under 5 in tow.... I asked her about her variation request and how quickly it came through to which she just looked blank. I re-worded and asked again, and she told me that her certificate says she can have four under fives and that it's said that for years since she last asked for it to cover one family.
jen x

From what you say it sounds like this is a genuine mistake on her part (although she should be sorting it out herself now that she knows it's wrong) so I would go down the development officer route, especially as yours is ex-Ofsted and hopefully will help her sort things out.

Miffy xx

[funfunfun]

Hi,

I encountered a cm this morning with four children under 5 in tow.... I asked her about her variation request and how quickly it came through to which she just looked blank. I re-worded and asked again, and she told me that her certificate says she can have four under fives and that it's said that for years since she last asked for it to cover one family.

I suggested that she confirm that with ofsted as usually a variation ends once the child leaves the setting.

Another cm arrived later and was really quite cross about the whole thing as she had spoken to this cm 10 months ago about the same thing when she attended a cm christmas party with 5 under 5's at the same time. She said she wanted them all to enjoy it and several people made it clear to her that she couldn't ignore her reg certificate to suit herself and that if over her numbers then her insurance was invalid.

the same was said to her today, but she seemed unbothered and not particularly interested in calling ofsted to confirm the reg details.

I'm left wondering what to do to follow it up or should I just leave it?

Advice please!!

jen x

Myabe the 5th is her own child ????

I have a variation for 3 under 5 ( this is for a named time for a set period of time on the days i require) .......When i have my own child i have 4 under 5 !!!!

I have clarified this with ofsted and they say
when i was given my numbers my own children were taken into account . I was only registered to care for 4 children under 8 .

they stated 4 children "paid for" (technically) + my own 2 so 6 in total HTH

[littlestar]

i would speak to your area dw insted of going to ofsted straight away and voice your concerns do you have one that is what she is for to help with things you are unsure off good luck

[Mouse]

Do you know where she lives? If you do, it's pretty easy to find her Ofsted report & you could see what it says.

[Heaven Scent]

There is a minder in my town who has been minding for years and under Ofsted regulations she is registered for allsorts of situations, both with and without an assistant present but without dates and time limits. These are all fully stated on her certificate I think when Ofsted first took over they must have agreed to any variations that were in place under Social Services but didn't put a time limit, names etc on the certificates and this minder was graded Outstanding at her last inspection she now She has recently registered an additional assistant and he (her husband) was just added tothe cert. She is due for inspection soon so it will be interesting to see if they make any changes - She often quite legally has 4 under 5's on her own - but I think when she has 5 she must have an assistant present!

The only bazar thing is that her new assistant (DH) who has his full first aid is not allowed to carry any children in his car even if its fully insured or drive her car with the mindees and her in it - yet my husband who is not registered as anything other than my husband is allowed to drive so long as I am in the car and I have parental permission for this too.

[babs]

i would ring ofsted or as others have said ask dw..


i applied for a variation as one family i have wanted to go full time and the 2 under ones clashed my cert now says ..

.. may care for no more than 6 children under 8 yrs : of these not more than 3 may be in the early yrs group and of these not more than 2 may be under1 yr at any one time.....

..may exceed this ratio to allow 4 children in the early yrs age group for the children named on varation request of 17 th August

.. may only care for such children weds, thurs and fri 8.30 till 2.30. this exception applies until one of those named childrenis no longer in the early yrs group or is no longer cared for by childminder...

i asked if this included the 2 under ones and he said that will now stay on my cert for good the only thing that comes off is caring for 4 under 5 .

hope this makes sense i just copied it off cert...

[MAWI]

I would be torn between making the call or not.
However, do you definatley know that she has NOT got the variation in place? As others have said, read her Ofsted report and then decide.
I would refer it to your CMDO in your area and then it would be down to them to sort it out. At least you could have done your bit but not get the balme for it.

I know I have a variation for an overlap to allow 5 in EYFS for half an hour, one day a week.( I have 1 arrive and 2 dropped off at school, so back within my numbers, but ofsted agreed this overlap) I always apply for a variation even for the slightest amount of time, its such a shame that some CM's constantly think they can get away with things. It makes a mockery of all us out there trying to show that we are professioanls. Its a tough one, good luck

[jumpinjen]

Thanks Guys,

I spoke to my Dev worker today, putting it without names to begin with and asking her opinion... she stated that uninsured and working illegally and that if visited by Ofsted and over numbers would get a formal police caution as she is breaking the law as reg cert is a legal document. I explained all the concerns, not sure if she has a variation in place, not sure if she really understands her cert and doesn't mean to be over (even though told all this ten months ago as well!!). She said that if i was happy to give her the name then she would refer it to the cm's dev worker and ask her to visit and check it out/support her to sort things out if needed.

She said I was right to tell her as if i didn't then I was in effect condoning what she was doing (if she is doing it!!) and it wouldn't be professional to ignore it.

I feel that I chose the right way to handle it, thanks for all the advice, hope it doesn't come back to bite me!!

jen x

[Mouse]

Thanks Guys,

she stated that uninsured and working illegally and that if visited by Ofsted and over numbers would get a formal police caution as she is breaking the law as reg cert is a legal document.
jen x

Got to laugh at that bit!!! In reality, Ofsted turn up, say don't do it again and go away!

I know a minder who has been caught over her numbers endless times. Last time, Ofsted told her to get an assistant. She asked if it could be another minder. Ofsted said yes, approved it all there & then and increased her numbers to cover the extra children :eek:

[Mouse]

Sorry, forgot to say Well Done for having brought it to the attention of the dev worker :thumbsup:

[jumpinjen]

Thanks Mouse.... can't believe they would do it there and then, they never do anything there and then!!!!

jen x

[onceinabluemoon]

A friend of mine had a certificate saying she could have 2 under 1s, no time scale was given, not child specific - has been registered for years and it was only when she had an inspection under EYFS that it was removed and has to now be applied for individually.

How long has she been registered and could this be a similar thing?

Just a thought :huh:

Me too - exactly the same, no mention of names or families just that I could have 2 under one. It was there until I got my first EYFS inspection and then removed and I was given a new certificate.

[onceinabluemoon]

Thanks Mouse.... can't believe they would do it there and then, they never do anything there and then!!!!

jen x

LOL, I've been given two variations recently, both over the phone and both granted there and then. Ofsted aren't all bad (just mostly, lol!).

[miffy]

A friend of mine had a certificate saying she could have 2 under 1s, no time scale was given, not child specific - has been registered for years and it was only when she had an inspection under EYFS that it was removed and has to now be applied for individually.



I don't understand that because in the Ofsted factsheet about the number of children you can care for it says once you've been granted a variation to care for 2 babies under 1 then you don't need to reapply as long as that condition is on your certificate.

Perhaps Ofsted aren't following their own rules! :rolleyes:

Jen - glad you've got it sorted out!

Miffy xx