Bit Stumped by this one

[Pipsqueak]

Been meaning to ask you guys this one all week and keep forgetting.
Its not a biggie and its sort of quite funny in its own way and it does stump me a little.

P age 3 - my little horror mindee (I do love her to bits she can just be rather errmmm.... challenging at times - and darned exhausting - well most of the time lol but hey I love a challenge). We are working on her listening and understanding skills - communication is brilliant.

anyway... how would you deal with this one......

she does something wrong - often quite blatently - she knows exactly what she should/should not be doing but will go ahead anyway.
anyway I discipline her (in her case its nearly always time out, toy/privilage removal), we talk about it - 99% of the time it goes right over her head no matter how I simplify it - its not that she doesn't understand, she just does as she pleases - but (and this really frustrates me) she will ask me 'can I be good now?'. Not 'I will be good' but 'can I?'. And I think this is her version of an apology/leaving time out etc. We talk about acceptable behaviour and I explain why we shouldn't be shoving the dolly in the (real) babies face or pouncing on dogs or hitting me, holding hands and crossing road nicely and she can tell you exactly WHY we (do) don't do these things but will still do it. We do lots of positive reinforcement with visual reminders but to no avail.

I have taken to saying 'I don't know P, can you?'

It just really bugs me because I cannot make her understand some of what she does is really not acceptable, some of it is dangerous, some of it is very disrespectful, never malicious though.

I could sit this child in time out for the rest of her life or take away all her toys and she just wouldn't care.
But how the heck would you answer 'can i be good now'.:rolleyes:

[Hebs]

with a.... i dont know can you??

lets her know it's her choice to control her behaviour

[Pipsqueak]

with a.... i dont know can you??

lets her know it's her choice to control her behaviour

Thats what I thought and again i have explained it to her but I don't think she understands its her choice, control. Problem is, seconds (minutes) later she will be off doing something she knows she shouldn't be doing.
I think she is asked at home 'can you be good' and I think she thinks that is the green light.

[breezy]

with a.... i dont know can you??

lets her know it's her choice to control her behaviour

I'd say that or " It would be lovely if you could be good, then we could.................play such and such or do such and such ........ etc" let her see being good is fun ( ok I know thats hard for you !!!!!!!!!!!!!):laughing:

[singingcactus]

Have you tried instead of saying the words 'don't stick dolly in babies face' maybe saying what you would prefer her to do 'can we sit dolly on a blanket on the floor so dolly can look at baby'.
I'm sure you have tried this already but just thought I'd mention it anyway. I know someone, very close to me, who will often say to a child don't, rather than giving a suggestion or example of what sort of behaviour is required. So all the child learned was what he could not do, and never quite worked out what this person did want him to do until he was actually told in words so he consistently got it wrong for this person.
You know, like our home rules will read something like, 'we all walk in our home', rather than, 'don't run in our home'. Or 'we all sit on furniture in our home' rather than, 'we don't stand on furniture'.

[Hebs]

Thats what I thought and again i have explained it to her but I don't think she understands its her choice, control. Problem is, seconds (minutes) later she will be off doing something she knows she shouldn't be doing.
I think she is asked at home 'can you be good' and I think she thinks that is the green light.

mark was like this, its like they forget as soon as its done :panic:

[Pipsqueak]

I'd say that or " It would be lovely if you could be good, then we could.................play such and such or do such and such ........ etc" let her see being good is fun ( ok I know thats hard for you !!!!!!!!!!!!!):laughing:

lol Breezy, I must admit i can see where this child is coming from!!!! :D I do admire her sense of get up and go, explore and live life she is a little whirlwind but she has no sense of personal space, danger - personal or for others and so on. Its like she is totally amoral. Her brother is very much the same although he does have a specified learning difficulty and he can be very hard work.

Its really hard to describe - when you talk to either of them its like they look through you and act like they are listening but don't understand - the thing is they DO understand as they can tell you WHY if you ask them. She can also argue the hind leg of a donkey and does! (Not that i am comparing myself to a donkey).

She will abide by my rules and regs - she knows them and often if she is in bother I will say to her but you know you shouldn't do xyz or why did you do that, she will reply with either a shrug and a don't know and then go blank or a 'cuz I wanted to' but P you know you will get into trouble, she will reply 'but I wanted to' followed seconds later by a 'can i be good now?'.

[Pipsqueak]

Have you tried instead of saying the words 'don't stick dolly in babies face' maybe saying what you would prefer her to do 'can we sit dolly on a blanket on the floor so dolly can look at baby'.
I'm sure you have tried this already but just thought I'd mention it anyway. I know someone, very close to me, who will often say to a child don't, rather than giving a suggestion or example of what sort of behaviour is required. So all the child learned was what he could not do, and never quite worked out what this person did want him to do until he was actually told in words so he consistently got it wrong for this person.
You know, like our home rules will read something like, 'we all walk in our home', rather than, 'don't run in our home'. Or 'we all sit on furniture in our home' rather than, 'we don't stand on furniture'.

Yep its all positive statements Cactus but thank you. I know what you mean though, occasionally i will be don't do that but she will be sitting next to baby quite lovely for a period of time and then all of a sudden she will all but smother her and thats when the more negative statements come out my mouth.
I am making P sound awful and she is not, just hard work and very slowly we are making progress (although when mum and dad turn up she really does resort back to being a little moo) I just not sure how to respond to 'can i be good?'

[RainbowMum]

I suggest you read 'Raiding your spirited child' by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka
It has some very helpful insight into the way the minds of such 'spirited' children work xx

[Mcgons]

lol Breezy, I must admit i can see where this child is coming from!!!! :D I do admire her sense of get up and go, explore and live life she is a little whirlwind but she has no sense of personal space, danger - personal or for others and so on. Its like she is totally amoral. Her brother is very much the same although he does have a specified learning difficulty and he can be very hard work.

Its really hard to describe - when you talk to either of them its like they look through you and act like they are listening but don't understand - the thing is they DO understand as they can tell you WHY if you ask them. She can also argue the hind leg of a donkey and does! (Not that i am comparing myself to a donkey).

She will abide by my rules and regs - she knows them and often if she is in bother I will say to her but you know you shouldn't do xyz or why did you do that, she will reply with either a shrug and a don't know and then go blank or a 'cuz I wanted to' but P you know you will get into trouble, she will reply 'but I wanted to' followed seconds later by a 'can i be good now?'.

I've not had much experience of 3 year olds, but do they really understand or are they just repeating what they have been told how they must behave? My 3 year old mindee seems like she understands but then sometimes says something random that makes me question that.

[FussyElmo]

I suggest you read 'Raiding your spirited child' by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka
It has some very helpful insight into the way the minds of such 'spirited' children work xx

Wonderful book highly recommend it.

Must admit I am guilty of saying to my spirited ds 'can you be good now':blush: :blush: Note to self do not say it again.

[Debbieanne]

Yep iv got a 3yr old mindee, who is very challenging at times( which is every day)
I like to think i'm positive with the way i speak to the children, after listening to an early years lecture once ( when i worked in a local nursery) she told us the words "no" and " don't" are negative words, making the child feel bad about themselves, we are to say stop instead, preferably use the childs name first as this allways gets their attention, then for example " ellie please stop, thats not kind" and try not to raise your voice and speak in a positive tone with a positive facial expression.
I have to say i think it works and my stress levels don't rise.
Hope this is usefull to you:)

[FussyElmo]

I've not had much experience of 3 year olds, but do they really understand or are they just repeating what they have been told how they must behave? My 3 year old mindee seems like she understands but then sometimes says something random that makes me question that.

Yes I think they can. My ds knows why he shouldnt climb the radiator - it will burn, he will fall or he will just pull it off the wall. The thing is he wants to see whats happening through the window so disreguards what he has been told a million and one times today :thumbsup:

[Pipsqueak]

I've not had much experience of 3 year olds, but do they really understand or are they just repeating what they have been told how they must behave? My 3 year old mindee seems like she understands but then sometimes says something random that makes me question that.

Oh yes, she is a bright 3yr old but I do think 3yr olds understand.
If P has pounced on a dog - one of mine or one she sees in the street, neighbours dog - and i do mean pounce (I have to be so alert to this) - once I have removed her from the poor animal I will talk with her about it and she will tell me that she shouldn't do it because a dog might not be friendly, it could hurt her, she could hurt them.
She knows she wouldn't like it if someone snatched toys/smothered her like she does the baby/hit etc.
She totally understands the rules with me and can and does abide by them with me but the moment mum and dad turn up you should see the gleam in her eye. i have had to ensure i enforce rules when parents are here because they really are at a loss with her. Although their methods of discipline are really not my preferred way even with my kids.

Nursery have even commented that she is a handful and how do I cope with her. i did say that I don't cope with her at all, I treat her the same and have the same high expectations of her. not sure that was the right answer but their comment got my goat a little.


I like that she is 'spirited' and I do not want to take that away from her but I so need to get it through to her about personal safety, respecting other people, sharing etc.

[RainbowMum]

Another point to consider is that some children do not develop the notion of 'consiquence' till around 12 years old - so although a child seems to understands what will happen - when a notion to do something pops into their heads - they do not stop to think of the sequence of events that will follow...

[Pipsqueak]

Another point to consider is that some children do not develop the notion of 'consiquence' till around 12 years old - so although a child seems to understands what will happen - when a notion to do something pops into their heads - they do not stop to think of the sequence of events that will follow...

that is really interesting Rainbow. I will have to read that book, thanks for the suggestion.

I do keep plugging away with P - as I say i love a challenge and she can be a really delightful child, I have seen some real progress with her that I am so proud of. Its all baby steps.

But I am just not sure how I deal with the 'can I be good?' question.

[The Juggler]

Pip if she's doing this whilst you're explaining her behaviour to her do you think the 'can I' is her way of saying 'yes I understand, or don't want to listen any more but I will go off and try to be good now.

I would avoid saying I don't know can you? Only becuase she might percieve this as a bit negative (although I'm guilty of doing this with my dd too who is v. challenging:blush: despite me reading the Spirited child book:laughing: ). I don't think she is questioning her ability or maybe she is but perhaps she needs your reassurance/belief hon.

So maybe, yes you can, you go and show me. sorry hon, does that sound a wee bit patronizing. Not meant to be (and should def. take my own advice wiht my dd sometimes).

[Pipsqueak]

Pip if she's doing this whilst you're explaining her behaviour to her do you think the 'can I' is her way of saying 'yes I understand, or don't want to listen any more but I will go off and try to be good now.

I would avoid saying I don't know can you? Only becuase she might percieve this as a bit negative (although I'm guilty of doing this with my dd too who is v. challenging:blush: despite me reading the Spirited child book:laughing: ). I don't think she is questioning her ability or maybe she is but perhaps she needs your reassurance/belief hon.

So maybe, yes you can, you go and show me. sorry hon, does that sound a wee bit patronizing. Not meant to be (and should def. take my own advice wiht my dd sometimes).


kerching - now why didn't i think of that. Because it was frustrating me i think I couldn't see past the 'errr can you?' retort question (goodness i sound childish! lol). no it doesn't sound patronising at all. thank you.


I do think she is sort of acknowledging the 'need' to be good by saying can I and like I say because its driving me nuts I was getting wrapped up in it.
I knew i needed to turn it round but couldn't see how (think i should have not been so long winded in my OP lol).

:thumbsup:

[The Juggler]

kerching - now why didn't i think of that. Because it was frustrating me i think I couldn't see past the 'errr can you?' retort question (goodness i sound childish! lol). no it doesn't sound patronising at all. thank you.


I do think she is sort of acknowledging the 'need' to be good by saying can I and like I say because its driving me nuts I was getting wrapped up in it.
I knew i needed to turn it round but couldn't see how (think i should have not been so long winded in my OP lol).

:thumbsup:

no, doesn't sound childish at all - you should see me and dd when we get going. dh comes in and says 'are you two arguing again:panic: :panic: ' like we are both being as childish as each other:laughing: :laughing: always easier to dish out advice than to use it:p

[singlewiththree]

She sounds just like my middle DD was at that age and I was tearing my hair out, nothing phases her and she is off like a whirl wind however she is also very sensitive and now she is 5 it is showing more that she actually needs loads and loads of positive affection and attention that my other children she just tries to show she is tough.

[Mcgons]

Another point to consider is that some children do not develop the notion of 'consiquence' till around 12 years old - so although a child seems to understands what will happen - when a notion to do something pops into their heads - they do not stop to think of the sequence of events that will follow...

I think this is kind of what I meant when I said do they really understand. Even though the child can explain why they are not do something, they still do it so there must be a reason why they still continue?

The book sounds good, I'm going to have a look too.:)

Just ordered the book - think it might help with my older son too! Thanks for the recommendation:)