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mama2three
21-07-2010, 06:41 AM
sorry back to this again...

Mindee signing tomorrow ( Godwilling!) , starting January.
have explained she needs to pay a deposit to secure place , nonrefundable etc...

but unless Im reading it wrong the contract says a reservation deposit can only be taken where there is a place within 12 weeks of contract date...

can anyone shed any light on this one for me please?

Chatterbox Childcare
21-07-2010, 07:05 AM
I think you need to ring NCMA to get full clarification

Millenium
21-07-2010, 07:12 AM
This may be what the NCMA recommends. As many will know, this is just one of the reasons why I do not use their paperwork - who are they to tell registered childminders how to run their business??? It is trying to take aware the independence and individual approach of the minder.

I do know that a lot of people feel that a retainer should not be charged for a period of longer than three months but I have not heard of a time-limit on deposits.

Chatterbox Childcare
21-07-2010, 07:14 AM
This may be what the NCMA recommends. As many will know, this is just one of the reasons why I do not use their paperwork - who are they to tell registered childminders how to run their business??? It is trying to take aware the independence and individual approach of the minder.

I do know that a lot of people feel that a retainer should not be charged for a period of longer than three months but I have not heard of a time-limit on deposits.

yes but what you have to take into account is that these contracts have been drawn up by a solicitor and will stand up in court. I am not saying that anyone else's will or will not but maybe there is a lawfull reason why this is written this way?

mama2three
21-07-2010, 07:18 AM
There isnt a retainer fee at all as the place becomes available in jan when Q starts full time ...
the wording says ' reservation deposit to secure future place ...£.. date vacancy anticipated ( within 12 weeks of contract date) ....
there are notes too which appear to confirm the 12 week part!

Millenium
21-07-2010, 07:25 AM
Thanks Debbie - fair comment but my own ones have been checked by a practicing lawyer - the same lawyer who confirmed that:


It is entirely legal to charge retainers and deposits on the same contract;

It is acceptable to set up a contract for an unborn child (a question that often comes up but the position is apparently that the child is only the subject of the contract and not the contractee which is of course the parent).

Oh what a minefield we work in!!!

p.s. always value your tax tips and advice............

Pipsqueak
21-07-2010, 07:29 AM
Thanks Debbie - fair comment but my own ones have been checked by a practicing lawyer - the same lawyer who confirmed that:


It is entirely legal to charge retainers and deposits on the same contract;

It is acceptable to set up a contract for an unborn child (a question that often comes up but the position is apparently that the child is only the subject of the contract and not the contractee which is of course the parent).

Oh what a minefield we work in!!!

p.s. always value your tax tips and advice............


Millenium - as you have had it checked can you not give NCMA a call and let them know that the advice they are dishing out as standard then is wrong.
On looking at the newer NCMA contracts the wording (still) surrounding deposits and retainers is still exceptionally confusing.
I have had it clarified that we can charge a deposit (non refundable) and a retainer but NCMA still tell that I can't.
it would be great if you could help point them in the right way.

mama2three
21-07-2010, 08:34 AM
Thought Id post what ncma have told me , it might help someone...:)

basically where it says date vacancy anticipated ( within 12 weeks of contract date) ..it refers to the date of commencement of the full contract ...not the date where contracts are signed...then if you dont have a space within 12 weeks of the agreed starting date you have to refund the deposit...

not sure that sounds right to me , but there you go...so I have said he can start in jan , but only have to refund the deposit if I havent got a place by march!!!

I have made a note of the ncma helpline persons name , time and date of call just in case this turns out to be wrong and i end up in dispute...

Millenium
21-07-2010, 08:48 AM
As NCMA themselves say, much of what they offer is advice on how they believe a registered childminder should offer a balanced service. I think you will find that advice is based on their contracts and therefore they are not wrong. If they say you cannot charge a deposit for a place that is more than 3 months ahead that is because to make any other recommendation would contradict their own contract templates.

Chatterbox Childcare
21-07-2010, 09:09 AM
Thought Id post what ncma have told me , it might help someone...:)

basically where it says date vacancy anticipated ( within 12 weeks of contract date) ..it refers to the date of commencement of the full contract ...not the date where contracts are signed...then if you dont have a space within 12 weeks of the agreed starting date you have to refund the deposit...

not sure that sounds right to me , but there you go...so I have said he can start in jan , but only have to refund the deposit if I havent got a place by march!!!

I have made a note of the ncma helpline persons name , time and date of call just in case this turns out to be wrong and i end up in dispute...

It does actually make sense that you cannot keep a deposit for a place that isn't there

Confusing to say the least

Pipsqueak
21-07-2010, 09:10 AM
Thought Id post what ncma have told me , it might help someone...:)

basically where it says date vacancy anticipated ( within 12 weeks of contract date) ..it refers to the date of commencement of the full contract ...not the date where contracts are signed...then if you dont have a space within 12 weeks of the agreed starting date you have to refund the deposit...

not sure that sounds right to me , but there you go...so I have said he can start in jan , but only have to refund the deposit if I havent got a place by march!!!

I have made a note of the ncma helpline persons name , time and date of call just in case this turns out to be wrong and i end up in dispute...

this whole thing about deposits is a shambles. you pay a deposit on a holiday for instance and that is non-refundable if you do not take up the holiday therefore to me if you are wanting a space in the future for childcare - to secure that space you pay a deposit (up to the provider if they deduct from fees or keep it).
Under clause 8 of NCMA contract:
Payment deposits - NCMA recommends that, if childminders are to be paid in arrears, then a payment deposit should be paid to the minder at th start of the contract equivelent to the agree notice period (this to me is advance payment not deposit and contradictory to the arrears bit:rolleyes: ) this is then held by the childmidner until the end of the contract and returned to the parent/guardian if no payments are outstanding. If payments are outstanding the childminder may retain the amount outstanding. Childminders may also choose to take a payment deposit even if being paid in advance and this must be indicated on the contract

So to me given that last sentence YES you can take a deposit - the advice you have been given is contradicting their OWN contracts.
Ring them back Mama and point this out and then get on the phone immediately to Richard Aris and point it out.
They are still giving out the same shoddy and contradictory advice that they gave me - proving they still haven't got a clue.

If they are contradicting their OWN contracts then their OWN contracts are not worth the paper they are written on.

Chatterbox Childcare
21-07-2010, 09:15 AM
this whole thing about deposits is a shambles. you pay a deposit on a holiday for instance and that is non-refundable if you do not take up the holiday therefore to me if you are wanting a space in the future for childcare - to secure that space you pay a deposit (up to the provider if they deduct from fees or keep it).
Under clause 8 of NCMA contract:
Payment deposits - NCMA recommends that, if childminders are to be paid in arrears, then a payment deposit should be paid to the minder at th start of the contract equivelent to the agree notice period (this to me is advance payment not deposit and contradictory to the arrears bit:rolleyes: ) this is then held by the childmidner until the end of the contract and returned to the parent/guardian if no payments are outstanding. If payments are outstanding the childminder may retain the amount outstanding. Childminders may also choose to take a payment deposit even if being paid in advance and this must be indicated on the contract

So to me given that last sentence YES you can take a deposit - the advice you have been given is contradicting their OWN contracts.
Ring them back Mama and point this out and then get on the phone immediately to Richard Aris and point it out.
They are still giving out the same shoddy and contradictory advice that they gave me - proving they still haven't got a clue.

If they are contradicting their OWN contracts then their OWN contracts are not worth the paper they are written on.

Pip what they are saying is to take a deposit if you are being paid in arrears so that you are not out of pocket and that money can either be used as a final payment or refunded at the end of a contract.

The deposit can be taken in advance even if being paid in arrears (and who would do that?) to hold a place.

I can't see how that is contradicting themselves?

Pipsqueak
21-07-2010, 09:31 AM
Childminders may also choose to take a payment deposit even if being paid in advance and this must be indicated on the contract
(taken from clause 8 NCMA contract)

that is what it says on the the last line. Mama is being told she can't take a deposit (if I am reading it all right) - when it clearly says on their own contracts you can.
I was told teh same thing - later confirmed by Mr Aris as wrong and the information given by the legal line was contradictory to what was in the own documentation, handbook and website.

i agree that if the space is unavailable by the minder then of course a deposit should be refunded, but the deposit is to secure a place - in that mean time you may be turning away other work or would be free to 'sell' the space to someone else.

a deposit (in this instance) is defined as:
To give as partial payment or security.

Again up to the minder if they want to take it as part payment towards future fees or use it as security to ensure the space

It has been proven by those who draw up their own contracts and have had them checked by solicitors that its all perfectly legal and doable.
NCMA really do need to sort this out

Pipsqueak
21-07-2010, 09:33 AM
Also if someone is paying you a sum of money as described in the first section of the bit italics - paying up front, then that is an advance payment and contradictory to being paid in arrears. Its a deposit that is being deducted/refunded at the end of the contract.

Perhaps I am just being a bit dense and not understanding the poorly worded and weighted contracts.

Chatterbox Childcare
21-07-2010, 09:34 AM
I'm lost..

Pipsqueak
21-07-2010, 09:36 AM
I'm lost..

lol sorry Debbie - I can do that to people!!!

If you refer back to my post where I have quoted from the NCMA contract (in italics), it talks about taking a deposit.

mama2three
21-07-2010, 09:40 AM
me too!!!

sorry Ive not been clear have I , but then Im confused easily!!

I want to take a deposit , now , for a jan place.

The contracts appear to say I can only take a deposit 12 weeks in advance ....which obviously doesnt suit either minders or parents , many want to secure their childs place sevaral months in advance...

NCMA say that it is not todays date that the 12 weeks refers to , but the full contract commencement date. So I can take a deposit now - and only need to refund it if a place is not available by..March , as the full contract starts January.

What parent wouldnt kick up an enormous fuss if I had taken £500 to secure a place in January , only to say ..nah , he can come in March though! There is no way this can be legally correct.....

Is that clear as mud now?? my head hurtts!!

Pipsqueak
21-07-2010, 09:55 AM
me too!!!

sorry Ive not been clear have I , but then Im confused easily!!

I want to take a deposit , now , for a jan place.

The contracts appear to say I can only take a deposit 12 weeks in advance ....which obviously doesnt suit either minders or parents , many want to secure their childs place sevaral months in advance...

NCMA say that it is not todays date that the 12 weeks refers to , but the full contract commencement date. So I can take a deposit now - and only need to refund it if a place is not available by..March , as the full contract starts January.

What parent wouldnt kick up an enormous fuss if I had taken £500 to secure a place in January , only to say ..nah , he can come in March though! There is no way this can be legally correct.....

Is that clear as mud now?? my head hurtts!!

yep clear as mud:D

the parents want to start the contract in January 2011 or March 2011- ?
and they want to secure the contract from tomorrow - yes?
you want to take a deposit to secure the contract - protecting you and them? yes
you would refund the deposit if YOU don't have the space available come January - yes??
if they don't want the space come January (or March) as agreed - you would keep the deposit as you would have stated it non-refundable?? yes




but NCMA are saying you can't take a deposit UNTIL January (12 weeks prior to the child starting in March) and thats when the contract arrangement will start - the depsit covering the time till when the CHILD starts in March. - yes???

so what about securing the contract between now and January?

my head hurts I am confuzzled now.......

mama2three
21-07-2010, 10:00 AM
just because thats 12 weeks from January ( well , ish!)
Why would i want a reservation deposit in January , she will be paying her first fee then , if anything it would be a payment deposit , but certainly not a reservation deposit!
Now it doesnt take much to confuddle me , but I have got a lot more grey hairs now than i had yesterday!!

yep clear as mud:D

the parents want to start the contract in January 2011 - yes??
and they want to secure the contract from tomorrow - yes?
you want to take a deposit to secure the contract - protecting you and them? yes
you would refund the deposit if YOU don't have the space available come January - yes??
if they don't want the space come January as agreed - you would keep the deposit as you would have stated it non-refundable?? yes




but NCMA are saying you can't take a deposit UNTIL January when the contract starts - yes?

my head hurts I am confuzzled now - where does March come into it?

Pipsqueak
21-07-2010, 10:04 AM
just because thats 12 weeks from January ( well , ish!)
Why would i want a reservation deposit in January , she will be paying her first fee then , if anything it would be a payment deposit , but certainly not a reservation deposit!
Now it doesnt take much to confuddle me , but I have got a lot more grey hairs now than i had yesterday!!

ring 'em back, it sounds like they haven't got a clue
i cannot see why you would be taking a reservation deposit when the child is already starting - in january.
that would then be considered an advance payment.

what you are wanting to do is take a depsoit (either non refundable if they don't take the space up as agreed) tomorrow to secure the contract for January - yes???

will this deposit count towards minding fees or is it just a one of payment for you to hold this space open between now and January?

mama2three
21-07-2010, 10:09 AM
well , what i had intended to do was to hold it to the end of the contract , which appears to be ok , again in section 8 ...if ive read it correctly!!


ring 'em back, it sounds like they haven't got a clue
i cannot see why you would be taking a reservation deposit when the child is already starting - in january.
that would then be considered an advance payment.

what you are wanting to do is take a depsoit (either non refundable if they don't take the space up as agreed) tomorrow to secure the contract for January - yes???

will this deposit count towards minding fees or is it just a one of payment for you to hold this space open between now and January?

mama2three
21-07-2010, 11:25 AM
ok so the saga continues...

had aphonecall from the legal team ( richard aris told them to contact me after my email)

what i was told was completely wrong. ( surprise surprise) The ncma helpline should not have even answered the query but should have passed it on to the legal team.

I can take a deposit now.

I can cross out the 'within 12 weeks' part

I should not tick any of the boxes underneath regarding ' will the deposit be....' as if i tick any of them then I would need to return deposit if parent doesnt start full contract.

She agrees the contract wording is poor and confusing and will feed this back!

Still not completely convinced but will leave it at that for now!

Thanks ladies for attempting to follow this!! Kath x

Pipsqueak
21-07-2010, 11:34 AM
Excellent News:clapping:

Still give Mr Aris a call/email back and describe how poorly worded the contracts are:D


ok so the saga continues...

had aphonecall from the legal team ( richard aris told them to contact me after my email)

what i was told was completely wrong. ( surprise surprise) The ncma helpline should not have even answered the query but should have passed it on to the legal team.

I can take a deposit now.

I can cross out the 'within 12 weeks' part

I should not tick any of the boxes underneath regarding ' will the deposit be....' as if i tick any of them then I would need to return deposit if parent doesnt start full contract.

She agrees the contract wording is poor and confusing and will feed this back!

Still not completely convinced but will leave it at that for now!

Thanks ladies for attempting to follow this!! Kath x