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View Full Version : Non-paying parents. NCMA/MM differences?



Mouse
16-04-2010, 09:17 AM
I've read lots of threads on here about non-paying parents/late payments & the differing advice people are given by NCMA and MM.

NCMA does seem to come down on the side of the parent & says you have to give written request for payment, leave it a week & only then can you give notice, but it has to be the 4 weeks notice. In theory you could end up carrying on working for no money.

MM advice seems to be different.

What are people's experiences of using the official routes for chasing payment? Has anyone taken a parent to court without giving 4 weeks notice? Has anyone given 4 weeks notice, followed NCMA rules and still not won? Will NCMA support you if you don't follow their advice, or have you got to do it their way?

I'd have thought that if you have it in your contract that payment is due on a certain date & it isn't received, parents are in breech of the contract & you could terminate it immediately.

Luckily I don't have a problem with this, but I am interested to hear people's experiences.

wellybelly
16-04-2010, 09:39 AM
I'm interested too, but I have to say I've not had a problem (yet!). I'm with the NCMA but I too have heard about other childminders being let down by the NCMA and coming out penniless. It should'nt need to get to 5 weeks, surley?

I think realisitically I would have a big problem caring for a child who I know I am not getting paid to care for (or very unlikley to be paid for) and would have to refuse.

I am keen to hear what others have done.

Pipsqueak
16-04-2010, 09:42 AM
I can only comment about NCMA but my experiences are:

a big fat zero of help from them on two occasions,

I had to chase NCMA hard (when they promised to ring me back, comment on my emails etc) to get minimal and very non-committal advice. and yes it all did seem in favour of the parent - the parent who has breached contract and threatened me etc. The 'advice' (and I use that term loosely) was all about what I can't say/do.

NCMA won't touch (become involved) in anything under £150 owing and you still have to do the warning letter and then the notice period etc.

NCMA do not allow minders to add on late/non payment additional fees - as they say the courts won't accept it (apparently what we charge is above the rate of inflation and thats a no-no..... I did query that many large and other companies add on even more extortionate fees and the courts seem to accept that).

NCMA do not appear to help you once its gone to court - after that you are on your own, so if parents do not pay up if you win - you are on your own still.

You have to use NCMA paperwork and the contracts seem weighted in the favour of parents. I have seen MM paperwork and its much more childminder friendly

All in all NCMA (legal dept) - the supposed organisation representing childminders is actually quite naff!

moogster1a
16-04-2010, 09:50 AM
as I've posted before, MM were fantastic when I had someone refusing to pay 4 weeks notice. they told me to stop care immediately if I wanted to, sent me the money owed, and then chased it up themselves.
I was told that if it went to court, I would basically just have to supply a copy of the contract and written statemnet, and they'd do all the rest.
Their contracts are very comprehensive, with a space to write your own extras, and they include a late payment fee option. Their attitude is definitely if the contract has been signed, both parties stick to it. After all, it is then a legally binding contract agreed to by both sides. The MM man actually told me that if the parent didn't like the terms, then tough, she shouldn't have signed it!
I'm a big fan as you can tell!

wellybelly
16-04-2010, 09:55 AM
That is shocking! I'm really amazed by this as they come accross so professional and for the childminder. I'm now seriously considering moving to MM as going by others experiences, I really don't want to be in that situation. Like I said above, I've not had a problem but It's nice to know you're covered.

Is it MM Public Liabilty that covers you or do you need to be a member like the NCMA?

Thanks x

Hebs
16-04-2010, 09:57 AM
a big fat zero of help from them on two occasions,


same here :panic: parent owes me £1300 and has been going on over a year now they are useless :angry:

moogster1a
16-04-2010, 09:59 AM
it's the insurance that covers you with MM. you don't need to be a member. In fact, I'm not sure if they do a membership as such. I get all the legal help, childcare magazine etc. just through the insurance

AliceK
16-04-2010, 10:01 AM
Luckily I haven't had to put MM to the test but I have heard that they will pay you and then claim it back from the parent. Also in the MM contracts it states that if fees are not paid then I can suspend care of their child until it is. Suits me, I'm not going to work for no pay.

xxxxxx

Pipsqueak
16-04-2010, 10:05 AM
Think I might give NCMA a call and ask them why MM can and do offer the otpion of suspending childcare when there is non payment. and then also ask them if I write it on the contract would that be acceptable.

the fact of the matter is why on earth should be be bound to a contract when its already been breached - if a parent breaches it then surely the parent is giving up the protection of a contract.


hmm yes, think I might call.... will come back soon

Hebs
16-04-2010, 10:08 AM
Think I might give NCMA a call and ask them why MM can and do offer the otpion of suspending childcare when there is non payment. and then also ask them if I write it on the contract would that be acceptable.

the fact of the matter is why on earth should be be bound to a contract when its already been breached - if a parent breaches it then surely the parent is giving up the protection of a contract.


hmm yes, think I might call.... will come back soon

also ask them why our contracts dont protect us minders so are they really worth the paper they are written on???
and what do we get for the money we pay to be with them?

:rolleyes:

sarah707
16-04-2010, 10:12 AM
it's the insurance that covers you with MM. you don't need to be a member. In fact, I'm not sure if they do a membership as such. I get all the legal help, childcare magazine etc. just through the insurance

Morton Michel are first and foremost an insurance company.

they have added extras to tempt childminders into their company like a free online magazine, money off vouchers for lots of different things, a childcare club, paperwork if you want to use it etc.

Moogster is not the only member to speak highly of them when there's been a payment problem.

Hth :D

Mouse
16-04-2010, 10:13 AM
This is very interesting.

What I have often thought is that NCMA seem to tell us we must do things a certain way (eg. not charging for bank hols unless we work them, having to give notice to a non-payer) and we tend to assume that's how things have to be done. Surely though, if MM can do things differently, it's not set in stone and we should be able to make up our own minds.

If I put something reasonable in a contract and a parents agrees to it & signs it, surely that is between me & the parent, not NCMA.

Mouse
16-04-2010, 10:15 AM
Morton Michel are first and foremost an insurance company.

they have added extras to tempt childminders into their company like a free online magazine, money off vouchers for lots of different things, a childcare club, paperwork if you want to use it etc.

Moogster is not the only member to speak highly of them when there's been a payment problem.

Hth :D

I wonder if anyone does both - NCMA for membership, but MM for insurance? It's something I might consider if it's possible.

Mrs_F
16-04-2010, 10:16 AM
So MM would be the best ones to get the insurance through then? I always thought NCMA would be good

sarah707
16-04-2010, 10:21 AM
I wonder if anyone does both - NCMA for membership, but MM for insurance? It's something I might consider if it's possible.

I was looking to join Ncma as a member recently.

The best quote they could give me was £50 and that was after negotiating :(

I thought that was a lot of money for 4 magazines a year as I wouldn't need all the other benefits (I get them with MM)

I'm still thinking about it :D

sarah707
16-04-2010, 10:23 AM
So MM would be the best ones to get the insurance through then? I always thought NCMA would be good

The NCMA are a national charity who lobby on behalf of childminders.

They speak to government, get involved in all kinds of policy decisions etc.

They also offer their members an insurance package as part of their membership.

Morton Michel on the other hand are an insurance company who also offer added extras for childminders.

It's a matter of personal preference :D

Mouse
16-04-2010, 10:27 AM
I was looking to join Ncma as a member recently.

The best quote they could give me was £50 and that was after negotiating :(

I thought that was a lot of money for 4 magazines a year as I wouldn't need all the other benefits (I get them with MM)

I'm still thinking about it :D

I think my problem is that I have been with NCMA forever and am finding it hard to cut the apron strings :laughing:

Hebs
16-04-2010, 10:28 AM
its all too confusing for me :panic:

do MM give you public liability too??

if so what does the membership to NCMA actually give you (besides the magazines)

sarah707
16-04-2010, 10:44 AM
its all too confusing for me :panic:

do MM give you public liability too??

Yes it's a full insurance package

if so what does the membership to NCMA actually give you (besides the magazines)

You need to read your latest magazine! :laughing:

There's a full page ad on the benefits of using the NCMA!!

Hth...... :D

Pipsqueak
16-04-2010, 10:50 AM
OK - just been on the phone:


NCMA (legal line) says:

the contracts are done up under 'contract law'.
the reason why we should not (nor do they advise) to suspend contract is due to the parent then being able to counter-sue for loss of earnings. effectively you would be in breach of contract should you do this. It has (apparently) been proved in court (childminders) when a minder has suspended service due to non payment the parent counter-sued and won. The childminder ended up losing her side (although it was agreed that the parent had breached contract) - ended up owing the parent money that she had lost (parent earned more than the minder!!).

I asked if we could write it on the contract - no they do not think it would stand up in a court of law.

I asked why MM can and do offer it - NCMA Legal Line response:
as far as they are aware, MM are not solicitors and they do not think they have the same success rate as NCMA
they cannot and do not guarantee to recover monies owed, (I said about MM paying the minder and then pursing the money themselves)



I queried the £150 limit - legal line directed me back to NCMA

So I spoke to NCMA (advising them of this thread and similar on this forum:D )

they are horrified to discover minders are disgruntled with the apparent lack of support and the limit of £150. The reason it is set at £150 is to do with the cost of a barrister etc.

they advise that everyone who is not happy with what they are providing (contracts weighted in the favour of parents) and what experiences they have had (ie naff service, lack of communication, having to effectively and potentially work for nearly 5 weeks with no money when there is a non-paying parent in accordance with the 'rules' set out etc etc etc) , to email them at:

info@*************

Please everyone - do email them as they point out this is the only way they become aware of issues like this and the only way they can attempt to resolve/look into what affects us most.

NCMA for the main DOES represent childminders and they do do lots of good work on our behalf - but they need our feedback (NCMA member or not)
I

manjay
16-04-2010, 11:10 AM
OK - just been on the phone:


NCMA (legal line) says:

the contracts are done up under 'contract law'.
the reason why we should not (nor do they advise) to suspend contract is due to the parent then being able to counter-sue for loss of earnings. effectively you would be in breach of contract should you do this. It has (apparently) been proved in court (childminders) when a minder has suspended service due to non payment the parent counter-sued and won. The childminder ended up losing her side (although it was agreed that the parent had breached contract) - ended up owing the parent money that she had lost (parent earned more than the minder!!).

I asked if we could write it on the contract - no they do not think it would stand up in a court of law.

I asked why MM can and do offer it - NCMA Legal Line response:
as far as they are aware, MM are not solicitors and they do not think they have the same success rate as NCMA
they cannot and do not guarantee to recover monies owed, (I said about MM paying the minder and then pursing the money themselves)



I queried the £150 limit - legal line directed me back to NCMA

So I spoke to NCMA (advising them of this thread and similar on this forum:D )

they are horrified to discover minders are disgruntled with the apparent lack of support and the limit of £150. The reason it is set at £150 is to do with the cost of a barrister etc.

they advise that everyone who is not happy with what they are providing (contracts weighted in the favour of parents) and what experiences they have had (ie naff service, lack of communication, having to effectively and potentially work for nearly 5 weeks with no money when there is a non-paying parent in accordance with the 'rules' set out etc etc etc) , to email them at:

info@*************

Please everyone - do email them as they point out this is the only way they become aware of issues like this and the only way they can attempt to resolve/look into what affects us most.

NCMA for the main DOES represent childminders and they do do lots of good work on our behalf - but they need our feedback (NCMA member or not)
I

I agree. Nice to see a more positive reply on here:D ;) . If you want NCMA to change things people do have to make them aware of what their gripes are. Regional forums are a good way of doing that but unfortunately these are not always well attended. Didn't they change the contracts again recently after everyone complained about the bank holiday charges amendments?

I could go on and on about this one (but I am supposed to be studying)! IMHO there is no contest between the two. MM is a profit making insurance company who may (or may not as I only hear about their take on non payers) offer better PLI cover. NCMA works for the good of childminders. Personally it is important to me to belong to a professional body in relation to my career. Just as in the same way if I owned a Day Nursery I would belong to NDNA or a playgroup I would belong to Wales PPA.

I decided quite a while ago that it was unfair of me to moan about NCMA when actually I didn't understand fully what they did. I am now heavily involved and I do genuinely believe that things would be a lot harder for us without the organisation.

There you go that's just my opinion before anyone shouts at me:thumbsup:

Pipsqueak
16-04-2010, 11:12 AM
its all too confusing for me :panic:

do MM give you public liability too??

if so what does the membership to NCMA actually give you (besides the magazines)

other benefits (apart from what Sarah has said about them lobbying government etc)

Discounts at:
Home insurance (Home Minder)
Motor Minder
2became4.com
Asco Educational
Findershield
Car Seats @ Halfords (although I have used my discount on other products:D )
Kwik Fit Mobile (tyre fitting)
InterContinental Hotels Group
Norfolk Industries
HotelStayUK
Conveyancing
Twycross Zoo
Everything Early Years
ELC (and Mothercare)
Cattle Country Adventure Park
www.barginbooks4kids.com
TTS Group
www.babysecurity.co.uk
Legoland
Chessington
Alton Towers Resort


your insurance covers your for babysitting (using NCMA babysitting checklist)


they quite often fund training opportunities and various bits and bobs (ie drop ins, networks) around the country, they put on regional and national forums.

I do know how hard NCMa staff work, we have an outpost office where I live and the ladies work very very hard. They are supportive and passionate about their jobs.

Pipsqueak
16-04-2010, 11:16 AM
I agree. Nice to see a more positive reply on here:D ;) . If you want NCMA to change things people do have to make them aware of what their gripes are. Regional forums are a good way of doing that but unfortunately these are not always well attended. Didn't they change the contracts again recently after everyone complained about the bank holiday charges amendments?

I could go on and on about this one (but I am supposed to be studying)! IMHO there is no contest between the two. MM is a profit making insurance company who may (or may not as I only hear about their take on non payers) offer better PLI cover. NCMA works for the good of childminders. Personally it is important to me to belong to a professional body in relation to my career. Just as in the same way if I owned a Day Nursery I would belong to NDNA or a playgroup I would belong to Wales PPA.

I decided quite a while ago that it was unfair of me to moan about NCMA when actually I didn't understand fully what they did. I am now heavily involved and I do genuinely believe that things would be a lot harder for us without the organisation.

There you go that's just my opinion before anyone shouts at me:thumbsup:


I agree with what you are saying Manjay but its up to us - Childminder Power - and yes we do have that power to talk to NCMA - whether its through Regional Meetings (PLEASE do go to them people) and AGM's or contact NCMA via email or by phone, even your local representative.

TELL NCMA what you like, don't like, want etc. Thats how things get changed.

actually I am off to start another thread....

Hebs
16-04-2010, 11:18 AM
other benefits (apart from what Sarah has said about them lobbying government etc)

Discounts at:
Home insurance (Home Minder)
Motor Minder
2became4.com
Asco Educational
Findershield
Car Seats @ Halfords (although I have used my discount on other products:D )
Kwik Fit Mobile (tyre fitting)
InterContinental Hotels Group
Norfolk Industries
HotelStayUK
Conveyancing
Twycross Zoo
Everything Early Years
ELC (and Mothercare)
Cattle Country Adventure Park
www.barginbooks4kids.com
TTS Group
www.babysecurity.co.uk
Legoland
Chessington
Alton Towers Resort

.

i'd rather lose these benefits and have money owed by parents in my account :D as tbh i never use 80% of them as i've never heard of them

Pipsqueak
16-04-2010, 11:21 AM
i'd rather lose these benefits and have money owed by parents in my account :D as tbh i never use 80% of them as i've never heard of them

its worth if just on ELC!!! lol

Hebs - write and tell NCMA about your experiences - they need to know
info@*************

Hebs
16-04-2010, 11:27 AM
they quite often fund training opportunities and various bits and bobs (ie drop ins, networks) around the country, they put on regional and national forums.



i wasn't even invitded to the NCMA north east regional conference, i only found out about it from Cher, i am going :D

BUT i am a paid member, so why was i not told about it? :rolleyes:

Pipsqueak
16-04-2010, 01:27 PM
i wasn't even invitded to the NCMA north east regional conference, i only found out about it from Cher, i am going :D

BUT i am a paid member, so why was i not told about it? :rolleyes:

its normally in the magazines and also your area rep should be letting people know (I know ours does)

I am booking myself in to go:thumbsup:

christine e
16-04-2010, 01:32 PM
i wasn't even invitded to the NCMA north east regional conference, i only found out about it from Cher, i am going :D

BUT i am a paid member, so why was i not told about it? :rolleyes:

Read your Who Minds - all regional forum information there

The Juggler
16-04-2010, 01:42 PM
OK - just been on the phone:


NCMA (legal line) says:

the contracts are done up under 'contract law'.
the reason why we should not (nor do they advise) to suspend contract is due to the parent then being able to counter-sue for loss of earnings. effectively you would be in breach of contract should you do this. It has (apparently) been proved in court (childminders) when a minder has suspended service due to non payment the parent counter-sued and won. The childminder ended up losing her side (although it was agreed that the parent had breached contract) - ended up owing the parent money that she had lost (parent earned more than the minder!!).

I asked if we could write it on the contract - no they do not think it would stand up in a court of law.

I asked why MM can and do offer it - NCMA Legal Line response:
as far as they are aware, MM are not solicitors and they do not think they have the same success rate as NCMA
they cannot and do not guarantee to recover monies owed, (I said about MM paying the minder and then pursing the money themselves)



I queried the £150 limit - legal line directed me back to NCMA

So I spoke to NCMA (advising them of this thread and similar on this forum:D )

they are horrified to discover minders are disgruntled with the apparent lack of support and the limit of £150. The reason it is set at £150 is to do with the cost of a barrister etc.

they advise that everyone who is not happy with what they are providing (contracts weighted in the favour of parents) and what experiences they have had (ie naff service, lack of communication, having to effectively and potentially work for nearly 5 weeks with no money when there is a non-paying parent in accordance with the 'rules' set out etc etc etc) , to email them at:

info@*************

Please everyone - do email them as they point out this is the only way they become aware of issues like this and the only way they can attempt to resolve/look into what affects us most.

NCMA for the main DOES represent childminders and they do do lots of good work on our behalf - but they need our feedback (NCMA member or not)
I

that's just what I said to someone the other day unless people moan they won't know about all the business they are losing supporting them! If they don't get membership income they won't be able to do any work on our behalf - such as lobbying Govt' anymore. I want to support them but dont think I'll be renewing my insurance this year just my membership. I wrote to my policy forum a while back and got a reply from NCMA thanking them (I was warning them they are going to lose loads of members unless they pull their finger out). Tehre's someone on here today owed 9 weeks already and NCMA are advising she still does another letter and THEN works 4 weeks notice presumably unpaid:eek: :eek:

How can we be sued for loss of earnings for the parent when we are taking them to court to sue for loss of earnings - it doesn't make sense - you don't pay for a service you don't get - simples! can't beleive the courts take this view. - sorry for rant off to send my email now!

caz3007
16-04-2010, 01:51 PM
I actually had NCMA ring me today to offer me a deal, cant remember exact price, but insurance £19.and something and membership £50. Not sure if thats a deal or not. I must admit I was just out the door and afterwards as you always do, thought about a lot of questions I could/should have asked

Avon
16-04-2010, 01:59 PM
I know that I will get a years free with NCMA when I am registered but reading all this is making me wonder.....

Can I have 2 at the same time? Can I pay for MM and have the free NCMA insurance at the same time (cos I get it anyway)? I know its doubling up but if NCMA are that useless and favour the parent, I simply don't want them on my side.

Avon
22-04-2010, 05:32 PM
bumpity bump

Hebs
22-04-2010, 05:46 PM
I know that I will get a years free with NCMA when I am registered but reading all this is making me wonder.....

Can I have 2 at the same time? Can I pay for MM and have the free NCMA insurance at the same time (cos I get it anyway)? I know its doubling up but if NCMA are that useless and favour the parent, I simply don't want them on my side.

no

i asked and was told it is illegal to have 2 :D

Donkey
22-04-2010, 07:49 PM
you dont need to be an ncma member to get the elc discount.

take in a copy of your insurance certificate and they give you the discount card