School not willing to work with me!

[Lady Haha]

I have just come back from dropping kids off at school and the reception teacher asked for a word.

In short, I had approached her at beginning of term to say that I had to provide evidence of working in partnership with the school and would she be happy for us to meet up termly to discuss mindee who I drop to school and have in hols. She said yes and we would arrange it closer to the hols. Well, last week I tried to arrange a meeting with her, but it turned out she can't do it during school hours cos she has the kids and I can't do it outside school hours cos I have kids! So, I created a form for her to just fill in, nothing mega, just a section on PSED with my own notes and a space for her to put her notes, a section on PD with the same and a section asking if there was anything I could help with for her own files. It would take her ten mins to fill it in.

Well, she said today that because I was asking so much of her (?), she had spoken to the head teacher and the school policy is to just use the homework book and get mum to bring it to me in school hols.

Now I think this is a bit of a cop out on the schools part. I will be hassling mum to bring the book in hols and surely that will come under working in partnership with parents, not school...... and even then, I will be helping school with CLL and PSRN, as the homework books are just that, but they won't be helping me with anything???

Am I right to be feeling angry about this or am I getting above my station? I am tempted to ask for everything she said in writing and a copy of their 'policy' and tell them that if I can't show Ofsted evidence of working with the school, I can show evidence that I at least tried!!!

What I find annoying is, this policy has obviously been invented purely for my benefit because the teacher in the other reception class was more than happy to work with me last year.

[Tired]

I can't offer much help really, just wanted to say I agree that they are not playing fair.
We are judged by how well we work with other settings, and so are they. But, as usual, us childminders are seen as not important and get ignored. I bet they work with Pre schools.

wish I could be of more help.
Sorry

[Chatterbox Childcare]

I would ask the school to put it in writing, explaining that you need to show Ofsted that you have made contact and the schools response

As long as you are communicating verbally it doesn't matter whether if it is at the school door or in a meeting.

[Lady Haha]

Thanks Debbie

The problem with communicating at the door is that I don't end up with any physical evidence that way either. I'm just annoyed as the form was so simple and wouldn't have taken long to fill in, it only took me ten mins to do my bits. Plus it was only a termly thing, so once every six or seven weeks! And surely if they had a copy of that in their own file, it would look good for them too if Ofsted came asnooping!!!

It's going to be hard enough as it is doing EYFS on this child as I only really have her in hols, so I can't plan next steps for her as she will have passed them by the time the next hol comes round!!!

[Andrea08]

I agree with most of what you are saying and yes get it in writing if you can but they wont and they prob dont have a policy on the subject..

you dont say what yr the child is in but as you are looking at the EYFS etc im guessing its the reception class, and to be honest if a parent or another childminder gave me a chart covering the 6 areas to fill in i think i too would refuse to do it, not because i would not want to work with you but because if the teacher had 30 children with 30 childminders then its going to take time and if the teachers had to do this for you then every parent is entitled to written observations etc on their children.
we can not expect the teachers to "Fill IN" our word sheets , partnership working starts with talking to eachother the same as a parent would talk with the teacher, the child will be completing the EYFS in school and the time with you will be more rest and relaxation time and play in the holidays so the home / school book should be shared with you too. Im sorry im sounding negative and i dont mean to. but you are the 2nd carer not the school and so it should be you giving info to the school with the parents.
take a step back and ask yourself what info do you need and what is it that your needing to know,, ask the teacher at pick up time and when you get home make a note of what they say in the childs file,

at the end of the day teachers will (with permission) only tell us what they would tell the parents, and the parents get 1 to 2 parent evenings a yr.. so thats how important schools feel partnership working is,,,

good luck sorry its a long one lol but ive always said its like banging our heads on a brick wall!!!

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Thanks Debbie

The problem with communicating at the door is that I don't end up with any physical evidence that way either. I'm just annoyed as the form was so simple and wouldn't have taken long to fill in, it only took me ten mins to do my bits. Plus it was only a termly thing, so once every six or seven weeks! And surely if they had a copy of that in their own file, it would look good for them too if Ofsted came asnooping!!!

It's going to be hard enough as it is doing EYFS on this child as I only really have her in hols, so I can't plan next steps for her as she will have passed them by the time the next hol comes round!!!

You don't need physical evidence - just document in the file what you have done with the date and their response.

Ofsted will get on to the school and chase down why they don't want to work with you

[Daftbat]

I don't get any physical evidence from school. One thing i do which may be of help is i get hold of the curriculum newsletters which our school produce for each class and i try to merge my planning with that which is going on in school. At my last inspection in February the inspector was very happy with what i could show her, and to be honest, i don't think she expected much else.

I think if we can show that we are taking notice of what the children are doing at school and trying to support it when they are with us then we are doing the right job. We can make notes in diaries etc about any verbal communication we have with the teachers just like we do with the parents.

[Mouse]

I don't get any physical evidence from school. One thing i do which may be of help is i get hold of the curriculum newsletters which our school produce for each class and i try to merge my planning with that which is going on in school. At my last inspection in February the inspector was very happy with what i could show her, and to be honest, i don't think she expected much else.

I think if we can show that we are taking notice of what the children are doing at school and trying to support it when they are with us then we are doing the right job. We can make notes in diaries etc about any verbal communication we have with the teachers just like we do with the parents.

I do something similar.

I ask school and nursery to give me a copy of their letter that goes to parents detailing what they will be doing through the term (often it's online so I can just print off a copy). I then make short notes showing how I build on it. Eg. at the moment nursery is doing about different coloured food, so on the way to nursery we talk about what mindee has had for breakfast & what colour it was. I only have him for half an hour from drop off at my house to drop off at nursery, so I think that is enough.
I'm showing that I am working with school, even if they don't particularly work with me.

[youarewhatyoueat]

I don't blame schools for not wanting to work with cms, but I do think its easy enough for reception staff to give us a quick briefing if the day has gone well and what theyve been doing. I think this is enough to show working with the schools, you could then follow on at home if you want, personally my after schoolers just want to chill out and thats also what we do in the half term.
Have you got a concern with this child or is the behaviour challenging, I could then see why you really want to work with the school, maybe the school doesn't have any issues and feels its not necessary.

[Twinkles]

Your evidence can come in the form of copies of newsletters and copies of progress reports given to the parents.
You could also keep a note of any verbal interraction you have with the school.

[Pipsqueak]

I don't blame schools for not wanting to work with cms, but I do think its easy enough for reception staff to give us a quick briefing if .

why don't you blame the schools for not wanting to work with c/ms? they have a professional and legal (EYFS) responsibility to interact with all people tied in with the child (albiet with parental consent)

[miffy]

If the school have a website you might find some information on there about what they're doing or like Twinks says try newsletters and write down anything you're told.

You can only show Ofsted you've done your best :)

Miffy xx

[youarewhatyoueat]

why don't you blame the schools for not wanting to work with c/ms? they have a professional and legal (EYFS) responsibility to interact with all people tied in with the child (albiet with parental consent)

Because they have so much to do already and there is not much benefit to them, and although we have to carry on the eyfs when children come to us after school, in reality they are tired and quite happy to chill out. I understand they have a legal responsibility but if the child is progressing well at school entry there is not much benefit to the teacher to know what they are doing with us. If there is a problem then yes definately work together.
But if the school aren't interested I would just make a note that I had made contact and leave it at that, less paperwork for me.

[Pipsqueak]

Because they have so much to do already and there is not much benefit to them, and although we have to carry on the eyfs when children come to us after school, in reality they are tired and quite happy to chill out. I understand they have a legal responsibility but if the child is progressing well at school entry there is not much benefit to the teacher to know what they are doing with us. If there is a problem then yes definately work together.
But if the school aren't interested I would just make a note that I had made contact and leave it at that, less paperwork for me.

No you see I would argue that you are wrong in that thinking. There is tremendous benefit to the teachers/school in hearing what we have to say and to getting us to understand how best to help the child by supporting what goes on at school. Even on a 5 minute walk home there is so much we can be doing to support.
I throughly agree that the children just want to chill out but you can still slip in bits and pieces.

You could argue this point about the parent/teacher relationship! And at the end of the day we are childcare professionals and a) be treated as such b) think of ourselves as that

All the time we are allowing the schools to get away with this train of thought then nothing will change. We have very valuable input to the edu-care of these children. Ofsted are beginning to chase up the schools in making sure they work with other professionals as well.

Yes again, they may have lots to do but so do we. Schools have massive support systems - we don't! We only have our own organisational skills to fall back on.


As to your last comment - yes I agree with that!

[youarewhatyoueat]

Yes I can see where you are coming from, but If I had 3 after schoolers from the same class then I may be asking too much of a teacher to fill out paperwork but to speak quickly at pick up they should be happy with that. The problem is its never going to be the same across the country unless teachers are told to do it then I can't see the point if some of us do it and others don't, but that seems to be the same with everything at the moment.
anyway got to go do pick up theyre breaking up today for half term.

[kindredspirits]

i get copies of the school newsletters and 'document' anything the teacher says to me but at the end of the day she doesn't stand and chat to every parent about what the child has done that day.

[Pipsqueak]

Yes I can see where you are coming from, but If I had 3 after schoolers from the same class then I may be asking too much of a teacher to fill out paperwork but to speak quickly at pick up they should be happy with that. The problem is its never going to be the same across the country unless teachers are told to do it then I can't see the point if some of us do it and others don't, but that seems to be the same with everything at the moment.
anyway got to go do pick up theyre breaking up today for half term.

I agree about asking them to fill in paperwork type stuff (mind you they expect us parents to fill in enough blooming paperwork over and over and over:rolleyes: ) but they should be making time to discuss stuff with us in a two way flow of information (ie taking on board what we are telling them about the child).

And schools (for EYFS age) are specifically directed by EYFS to work in partnership with other settings!
'1.16 where children receive education and care in more than one settting, practitioners must ensure continuity and coherence by sharing relevant information with each other and parents
so teachers across the country and all EY practitioners are being told exactly the same thing. Something many schools still choose to ignore (met a TA on my course yesterday who was not aware of this - don't these people read the frameworks)

[Lady Haha]

The problem with using the school newsletter as your form of working in partnership, is that it isn't about the child as an individual, it's about what the school is doing, has been doing etc.

It's unlikely that all 30 kids in the class will each have a childminder, therefore 30 forms to fill in.....!!!!! Even if ten of them have childminders, the form I devised would take ten mins max to fill in, so if they had to do that ten times, thats an hour and a half of their time every seven weeks...poor them.....:rolleyes: I don't feel guilty about creating more paperwork for them, we all have more paperwork to deal with!!!

[Lady Haha]

I emailed Ofsted earlier about this and here is my reply......Ofsted talking in riddles as ever, they seem to be talking about me sharing info with parents, not other settings! I have put the bit I think is relevant in italics and from what I can see it is basically saying I can now go back to this teacher and ask to see her EYFS file on mindee if I want to!!! Can you imagine her face!!!!!:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: I bet she would suddenly be doing so much more paperwork knowing that its going to be seen regularly and wish she had just filled in my form for me......:p



Thank you for your e-mail.



In response to your enquiry page 23 of the EYFS statutory framework has specific legal requirements relating to what information you must share with parents. This does not specifically include children's journals.



You should also have regard to the statutory guidance which state:



"Providers should maintain a regular two-way flow of information with parents and between providers (for example, where the childminder regularly collects the child from nursery). Providers should ensure that all staff are aware of the need to maintain privacy and confidentiality.



Parents should be allowed access to all written records about their children (except in exceptional cases where data protection laws stipulate it is against the best interests of the child to do so) and, where requested, comments from parents are incorporated into children's records."



The daily records about a child such as accident records, daily diaries, the EYFS profile and developmental records should all be shared upon request unless it is not in the best interest of the child (e.g. child protection or where it involves information about a third party and you have data protection concerns).


It is for you to decide how you do this, for example you may allow parents to take records home with them, provide copies or request they keep records on site.



I hope you find this information helpful. However should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us.



Regards



Bernard Anderson

Customer Service Advisor

Ofsted - National Business Unit

TEL: 08456 404040




-------Original Message--------
From: blackandsparkly@blueyonder.co.uk
To: "enquiries@ofsted.gov.uk" enquiries@ofsted.gov.uk
CC:
Sent: 21/10/2009 11:33:41
Subject: Working in Partnership with other Settings (Childminders EYFS)


Dear sirs

I have a child in EYFS who is attending reception at school. I have
approached the teacher about us working to gether and asked if she would
fill in a short form for me termly. The questions on the form ask for a
short assessemnt on PSED and PD to enable me to plan effectively for that
child as I only look after in school hols and drop her to school.

The teacher has informed me that school policy is to just use the homework
book (which is just writing letters) and ask mum to send the book in
school hols.

I am concerned that if I am inspected, then this would not be adequate
evidence of me working with the school and I would be marked down for
this.

Should the school be doing more to work with me or is their policy
sufficient?

Please can you advise?

[Chatterbox Childcare]

I emailed Ofsted earlier about this and here is my reply......Ofsted talking in riddles as ever, they seem to be talking about me sharing info with parents, not other settings! I have put the bit I think is relevant in italics and from what I can see it is basically saying I can now go back to this teacher and ask to see her EYFS file on mindee if I want to!!! Can you imagine her face!!!!!:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: I bet she would suddenly be doing so much more paperwork knowing that its going to be seen regularly and wish she had just filled in my form for me......:p



Thank you for your e-mail.



In response to your enquiry page 23 of the EYFS statutory framework has specific legal requirements relating to what information you must share with parents. This does not specifically include children's journals.



You should also have regard to the statutory guidance which state:



"Providers should maintain a regular two-way flow of information with parents and between providers (for example, where the childminder regularly collects the child from nursery). Providers should ensure that all staff are aware of the need to maintain privacy and confidentiality.



Parents should be allowed access to all written records about their children (except in exceptional cases where data protection laws stipulate it is against the best interests of the child to do so) and, where requested, comments from parents are incorporated into children's records."



The daily records about a child such as accident records, daily diaries, the EYFS profile and developmental records should all be shared upon request unless it is not in the best interest of the child (e.g. child protection or where it involves information about a third party and you have data protection concerns).


It is for you to decide how you do this, for example you may allow parents to take records home with them, provide copies or request they keep records on site.



I hope you find this information helpful. However should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us.



Regards



Bernard Anderson

Customer Service Advisor

Ofsted - National Business Unit

TEL: 08456 404040




-------Original Message--------
From: blackandsparkly@blueyonder.co.uk
To: "enquiries@ofsted.gov.uk" enquiries@ofsted.gov.uk
CC:
Sent: 21/10/2009 11:33:41
Subject: Working in Partnership with other Settings (Childminders EYFS)


Dear sirs

I have a child in EYFS who is attending reception at school. I have
approached the teacher about us working to gether and asked if she would
fill in a short form for me termly. The questions on the form ask for a
short assessemnt on PSED and PD to enable me to plan effectively for that
child as I only look after in school hols and drop her to school.

The teacher has informed me that school policy is to just use the homework
book (which is just writing letters) and ask mum to send the book in
school hols.

I am concerned that if I am inspected, then this would not be adequate
evidence of me working with the school and I would be marked down for
this.

Should the school be doing more to work with me or is their policy
sufficient?

Please can you advise?

This is going to sound negative from me and I apologise if I offend but I cannot see what difference it makes if you have a form filled in or not. All the EYFS is asking is that you keep each other informed of what is going on with the child. Why doesn't a quick chat each day between you and teacher and copies of the newsletters cover this? I also don't read anywhere that their EYFS needs to be shared with a childminder but the paperwork/records has to be available to the parents.

[Pipsqueak]

This is going to sound negative from me and I apologise if I offend but I cannot see what difference it makes if you have a form filled in or not. All the EYFS is asking is that you keep each other informed of what is going on with the child. Why doesn't a quick chat each day between you and teacher and copies of the newsletters cover this? I also don't read anywhere that their EYFS needs to be shared with a childminder but the paperwork/records has to be available to the parents.

sorry Debbie to contradict - it does say about sharing for continuity and coherence- see my above post:blush:

but I agree about form filling, all I do is have a quick chat every couple of weeks with the teacher at a mutally convienent time, and (if the parent is agreeable) then I try to sit down for a chat (the school is quite co-op like this) perhaps once every two terms. I try to get hold of some of the class planning etc as well. for me then it job done

[youarewhatyoueat]

but I agree about form filling, all I do is have a quick chat every couple of weeks with the teacher at a mutally convienent time, and (if the parent is agreeable) then I try to sit down for a chat (the school is quite co-op like this) perhaps once every two terms. I try to get hold of some of the class planning etc as well. for me then it job done

Just out of interest what do you do with the info that you get from school ie the class planning. Do you incorporate it into your own plans. I'm don't really see how that can benefit the child as they are covering it class why would they want to come home and do it again. I'm not being funny I am actually interested as its not something I do in great detail.
I've got my own ds4 who is now in reception and hes not the slightest bit interested in doing anything after school other than riding his bike and playing, oh and eating,lots!!!.
I always ask the teacher if theyve had a good day and any messages for mum that sort of thing.

[Chatterbox Childcare]

Just out of interest what do you do with the info that you get from school ie the class planning. Do you incorporate it into your own plans. I'm don't really see how that can benefit the child as they are covering it class why would they want to come home and do it again. I'm not being funny I am actually interested as its not something I do in great detail.
I've got my own ds4 who is now in reception and hes not the slightest bit interested in doing anything after school other than riding his bike and playing, oh and eating,lots!!!.
I always ask the teacher if theyve had a good day and any messages for mum that sort of thing.

By talking to the teachers I find out how the day has gone, if mindee has had a good day, what he has shown or not shown interest in etc.. I continue this by talking to him about his day - today we have a toilet roll that was his rocket and after school we flew it in the garden. Without the knowledge of space I wouldn't have seen this as anything other than junk modelling

[Pipsqueak]

Just out of interest what do you do with the info that you get from school ie the class planning. Do you incorporate it into your own plans. I'm don't really see how that can benefit the child as they are covering it class why would they want to come home and do it again. I'm not being funny I am actually interested as its not something I do in great detail.
I've got my own ds4 who is now in reception and hes not the slightest bit interested in doing anything after school other than riding his bike and playing, oh and eating,lots!!!.
I always ask the teacher if theyve had a good day and any messages for mum that sort of thing.

If they are learning specific numbers/letters for example then I try hard to back it up at home (its all going great at the moment because my 1 of my eyfs is in the same class as my son!!!), if they are doing certain topics then I try to incorporate it into some of my planning.
Like Debbie I talk to them about their day, interests and also point out what I have noted at home (I keep saying home I mean 'setting' lol)

My other eyfs nursery age child goes to a different nursery to my sons school and they are extremely reluctant there to entertain me - but they have no choice and I have even pointed out that many of the things they say my mindee can't do - ie count to 20 and recognise numbers she most certainly can - she can count forwards and back, she can sequence etc and the nursery staff were astonished - actually you could have knocked them over with a feather. Their whole attitude was distressing mum badly and my input was invaluable as it made them re-evaluate what they weren't acheiving with this child!:thumbsup:

[youarewhatyoueat]

If they are learning specific numbers/letters for example then I try hard to back it up at home (its all going great at the moment because my 1 of my eyfs is in the same class as my son!!!), if they are doing certain topics then I try to incorporate it into some of my planning.
Like Debbie I talk to them about their day, interests and also point out what I have noted at home (I keep saying home I mean 'setting' lol)

My other eyfs nursery age child goes to a different nursery to my sons school and they are extremely reluctant there to entertain me - but they have no choice and I have even pointed out that many of the things they say my mindee can't do - ie count to 20 and recognise numbers she most certainly can - she can count forwards and back, she can sequence etc and the nursery staff were astonished - actually you could have knocked them over with a feather. Their whole attitude was distressing mum badly and my input was invaluable as it made them re-evaluate what they weren't acheiving with this child!:thumbsup:

I absolutely agree with the benefits of working with nurseries which I do, and I can see the benefit of reinforcing the letter/numbers they have been learning at school, if they want to.
But I can't really see the benefit of getting teachers to fill in paperwork and doing more than you are doing. I suppose it also depends how easy it is to talk to the teacher at hand over, but I also don't think its worth getting too stressed about if you can't get teachers to work with you.
Thankfully the children I look after all go to the local village school where there are only 54 children, 8 in reception inc mine so its not exactly hard to have a quick chat. But at the bigger schools where the intake can be 90 plus I should think its a bit of a nightmare.

[merry]

Because they have so much to do already

My daughter is a primary teacher and a 70 hour working week with masses of paperwork already is the norm. At the school I regularly pick up from there can easily be 7 or more children in each reception class going to childminders which would add up to a fair amount of extra work on a teachers already overburdened workload. I collect children from 4 different years, from 4 different exits and haven't got time to chat to teachers every day, if there's a concern they tell me, I get copies of letters sent home, I think that's enough and I think sometimes we get so concerned with 'proving' things to Ofsted that we do things that just increase everyone's workload without actually being of benefit to the child.

[Lady Haha]

Thanks for all your replies...I must admit I was getting offended to start with with people saying the teacher shouldnt have to do my little form ( I forgot to mention that this form came from her idea of getting a 'little book' going, I thought a quick form every term would be quicker). But the more I read your replies the more I would actually prefer it if I didn't have to bother with all of that!!!!

I suppose what I'm worried about it is if and when I get inspected and the inspector says 'how well do you work in partnership with other settings?', I won't have anything to show her. Yes, I can show her the newsletter, but is that all they want? Doesn't it have to be about MY mindee in particular? I could just lie I suppose and say I have regular chats with the teacher, but thats not really good enough is it!!!:blush:

The teacher has already said I can meet up with her once a term to discuss this mindee but it has to be after school, which I can't do.
Although I think she may back track on that now anyway as at first she said we could meet more regularly than that, then changed her mind.

At the end of the day, I'm not trying to be awkward, I'm just trying to do my job and I don't want to be actioned by the inspector for something that isn't my fault!

[Lady Haha]

My daughter is a primary teacher and a 70 hour working week with masses of paperwork already is the norm. At the school I regularly pick up from there can easily be 7 or more children in each reception class going to childminders which would add up to a fair amount of extra work on a teachers already overburdened workload. I collect children from 4 different years, from 4 different exits and haven't got time to chat to teachers every day, if there's a concern they tell me, I get copies of letters sent home, I think that's enough and I think sometimes we get so concerned with 'proving' things to Ofsted that we do things that just increase everyone's workload without actually being of benefit to the child.

I think you have hit the nail right on the head!

[HomefromHome]

my dd nursery give us a half termly sheet with what they're doing and the 6 areas of learning and how they coverit - they also put in a bit for parents/carers about what they can do to help their child on the subject.

now hopefully one of my mindees will be going to that nursery next sept (dd starts reception) and i will be using this as my communication/working in partnership with nursery/school - i agree that they have 30 kids to do work for but i argue that they only put 1 thing in their folders per half term - they do in our nursery anyway - and they have a a long list like our child development thingy wotsit and just highligjht when they feel the child has reached that stage. now i have 3 under 5's and i do way more per child for their journals so i dont think all nurseries do as much as cm's. also my nursery only has 15 children per session at the mo!!!! i'm quite happy with what they do - especially as i can use their half termly sheet in my plannin;) :clapping:

i think working wi schools/nurseries means communication between all 3 parties - nothing more, nothing less.

[balloon]

No idea if its any use to you or not but I used an exercise book and wrote in things that the child did with me (not every week but outstanding things or things of interest) teacher read it and gave me the photocopy sheet of what they do each half term that parents normally get to stick in book. Ofsted did pick up on this was all the school was doing but were very pleased with my part. I didn't get penalised.