Massive error with my numbers???

[donnagwynne]

I am worried sick that I have made a massive error with my ratios.

My dd started school in September full-time and I assumed that this would give me another early years space, which with the help of an initial variation I filled.

However, after having applied to Ofsted for a variation which I thought would alter my registration details, it appears that I could have been wrong. They will still only register me for two in early years.

I currently have three children aged 3 and below on tues,weds and thurs, and was going to ask for a fourth in an overlap on thurs.

Have I gone horribly wrong somewhere??

I have now spoken to Ofsted three times and get different 'call centre operatives' each time, and each have confused me even more!!

Does anyone know??? I am worried sick that I have been minding illegally since Sept!!!

[Hebs]

if your child is in school ALL day then they will be classed as a "rising 5" for your ratios so no you haven't been over your numbers :thumbsup:

[ORKSIE]

Ratio's get round my neck too.

Have they not given you 3 under 5 because your DD is still under 5?
Although I thought that when your DD went to FT education she went up in your ratio's:huh:

[ORKSIE]

if your child is in school ALL day then they will be classed as a "rising 5" for your ratios so no you haven't been over your numbers :thumbsup:

Thats what I thought Hebs:thumbsup:

[Pipsqueak]

you can ask for your certificate to reflect that a child is a 'rising 5'.
You still have to be within the given numbers on the certificate/variation.
You CANNOT go over 6 under 8's
My certificate states that I can only have 2 in the EY group even though my son is a 'rising 5' meaning that I still cannot have anymore than the 2.

Stop speaking to people and email them for written confirmation.

[Pipsqueak]

Ratio's get round my neck too.

Have they not given you 3 under 5 because your DD is still under 5?
Although I thought that when your DD went to FT education she went up in your ratio's:huh:

your ratios only change when the child is actually 5 not a rising 5

[Hebs]

your ratios only change when the child is actually 5 not a rising 5

so whats the point??? :laughing: or am i missing something??

[singlewiththree]

your ratios only change when the child is actually 5 not a rising 5

My ratio changed as they issued me with a new certificate and took my daughter out of the early years and put her in the 5-8 bracket.

[~Chelle~]

I really think you need to speak to Ofsted because my thought is, if that you only mind what your certificate says, so if it says 2 under the age of 5 and you are minding 3 children under 5 then you are definately over your numbers.

Lots of people will say different things as they have different circumstances and different numbers allowed. You have to follow what it says on your certificate unless you ask for and receive a variation from Ofsted.

My friend had this and because her son, who was 4, had started school she assumed that she could look after one more, but on checking with Ofsted they told her that until her son turned 5, she could still only have 2 under the age of 5, I think it was to do with the fact that she would have them all in holiday time, therefore would technically have 4 under the age of 5 IYSWIM.

Ofsted is the best place to check, good luck x

[aly]

your ratios only change when the child is actually 5 not a rising 5
My ratios did change...my son is 4 but in full time.

[Helen79]

As soon as your child is in full time school education even if they're still 4 you need to conatct ofsted & ask them to add a 'rising 5' variation onto your certificate which means you can then take on another under 5 mindee.

Technically you're not over your numbers but if your certificate says 2 under 5's you might be but I'm sure ofsted will be ok with it if you ring them about it and ask for your certificate to be changed.

A rising 5 child is still classed as an over 5 even in the holidays.

[little miss chatterbox]

i have a rising 5 clause on my certificate the official wording is "when caring for 4 or 5 yr old children who are in full time education, may increase the number in the early years age group by the number of children in full time education providing the maximum number is not exceeded"

so if you call them to put this on your certificate you'll be fine!

[cuffleygirl]

I am in the same boat my son started full time in September (all day) he will be 5 in December. I was inspected in May and mentioned this and Ofsted took it upon themselves to issue an exemption from 8 September to reflect this the wording is:

when caring for a 4 or 5 year old who are in full time eduction may increase the early years age group by the number of children in full time education, providing the maximum number is not exceeded (Early Years Register).

Also bear in mind if it says may only care for xx under 5 or 8 Ofsted will have already taken into account the number of your own children.

Speak to them but get the name of the person you speak to and the inspector they refer to. I think you are OK but if necessary apply for a retrospective variation for continuity of care and explain that you weren't clear.

Good luck let us know what happens

[TheBTeam]

i have a rising 5 clause on my certificate the official wording is "when caring for 4 or 5 yr old children who are in full time education, may increase the number in the early years age group by the number of children in full time education providing the maximum number is not exceeded"

so if you call them to put this on your certificate you'll be fine!

I was told that you could have this if you wanted, but it was not compulsory, just count the child as over 5 for numbers, so on this basis they should up your under 5's to 3 and the child in full time school goes into the over 5's numbers.

[Mrs.L.C]

I would suggest emailing or writing to them ratehr than phoning to request this is changed to state what other have said

[ORKSIE]

I was told that you could have this if you wanted, but it was not compulsory, just count the child as over 5 for numbers, so on this basis they should up your under 5's to 3 and the child in full time school goes into the over 5's numbers.

That was my understanding too, BT

[MissTinkerbell]

i have a rising 5 clause on my certificate the official wording is "when caring for 4 or 5 yr old children who are in full time education, may increase the number in the early years age group by the number of children in full time education providing the maximum number is not exceeded"

so if you call them to put this on your certificate you'll be fine!

I was also told that it wasn't compulsory to have this on your certificate but it was put on if you applied for a variation for a rising 5.

[PixiePetal]

Ofsted put the rising 5s clause on my certificate without me asking so I am covered - if I ever get any work :rolleyes:

[madasahatter]

The rising 5 clause on the certificate does not cover your own children only ones you 'care' for!
Ofsted remove your children from your numbers and anything it says on your certificate covers only your minded children.
If your child changes an age group you MUST get ofsted to change your certificate, you can't just make assumptions that you can alter your ratios accordingly.

Please please please ring up ofsted to get them to change it.

[youarewhatyoueat]

your ratios only change when the child is actually 5 not a rising 5

You're confusing me now!!! the other day you said 'The Rising 5 condition states that 'they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult: child ratio'. You do not have to count them as over the age of 5 but you may in order to meet ratio requirements, providing that you stay within your maximum numbers at all times' and now youre saying the ratios only change when they are age 5.

Ahhhhh am I being really thick and reading this wrong.

[ORKSIE]

You're confusing me now!!! the other day you said 'The Rising 5 condition states that 'they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult: child ratio'. You do not have to count them as over the age of 5 but you may in order to meet ratio requirements, providing that you stay within your maximum numbers at all times' and now youre saying the ratios only change when they are age 5.

Ahhhhh am I being really thick and reading this wrong.

No, You are most definately not thick.....it is very confusing.
One minute I think I understand it, then I dint:eek:

[ORKSIE]

*Dint...I mean dont:D

[donnagwynne]

Well I have emailed the variation form back to ofsted with all of the information that they requested and explained the situation to them. I am hoping that they will call me back soon, in the meantime I feel sick with worry and don't know what to do.

What sanctions do you think Ofsted will take against me if I am at fault??

And I do not understand why some childminders have had their registration details changed when their own child is at FT school but they will not do mine??? This regional variation should not be allowed.

Thanks for your support, Donna

[aly]

I just phoned my CSSIW office and the numbers only state the minded children so my certifcate does not need amending.

[louise]

When ds went to school full time last year i phoned to ask for my cert to change. They still put 2 children under 3 and the rising 5 statment i rechecked this out as to me that didnt make much sense as like others said ds does not come in my numbers on cert so why the rising 5 thing was to include him confused me but i was told thats how its ment to be. I didnt have 3 anyway so didnt have to worry.

[georgie456]

i have a rising 5 clause on my certificate the official wording is "when caring for 4 or 5 yr old children who are in full time education, may increase the number in the early years age group by the number of children in full time education providing the maximum number is not exceeded"

so if you call them to put this on your certificate you'll be fine!

This is exactly what mine says :)

[Pipsqueak]

Right I am sorry to be confuzzling people and I can only tell you what Ofsted have told me (refer to my post re - Rising 5's and the Ofsted email).

Yes your own child can be classed as 'rising 5', and you can ask for (buts its not necessary too) have your certificate changed to reflect this.
Until the (your) child actually turns 5 then your actual exisiting ratios do not change for example:

my own son is rising 5 but Ofsted have left my current certificate as that I can only mind 2 under the age of 5. This is because I can choose where to place my son - in either the under 5s or the over 5s. Once he turns 5 in December he will move up permanantly into the over 5's group - effectively reducing my 5-8yr old group down to 2 mindees and subsquently releasing the 3rd space for under 5's.

If its a mindee then you do not have to have your certificate reflecting rising 5 at all because you would then choose where to place this child and it automatically reflects in your numbers (whereas for my own child I will have to get my certificate changed again in December when he actually turns 5).
A mindee automatically changes goes through your age groups but you have to be minding within the stated numbers on your certificate.

So again for instance - I still cannot take on anymore than 2 under 5 mindees (at the same time) at the moment as I only effectively have 2 spaces available. To have 3 mindees will make me in breach of regulation.
To have him as a rising 5 in the 5-8 group I still have to make sure that I am within my 3 allocated spaces.

Are you still with me???:D

[youarewhatyoueat]

I'll read that in the morning,Lol!!!! goodnight

[ORKSIE]

Right I am sorry to be confuzzling people and I can only tell you what Ofsted have told me (refer to my post re - Rising 5's and the Ofsted email).

Yes your own child can be classed as 'rising 5', and you can ask for (buts its not necessary too) have your certificate changed to reflect this.
Until the (your) child actually turns 5 then your actual exisiting ratios do not change for example:

my own son is rising 5 but Ofsted have left my current certificate as that I can only mind 2 under the age of 5. This is because I can choose where to place my son - in either the under 5s or the over 5s. Once he turns 5 in December he will move up permanantly into the over 5's group - effectively reducing my 5-8yr old group down to 2 mindees and subsquently releasing the 3rd space for under 5's.

If its a mindee then you do not have to have your certificate reflecting rising 5 at all because you would then choose where to place this child and it automatically reflects in your numbers (whereas for my own child I will have to get my certificate changed again in December when he actually turns 5).
A mindee automatically changes goes through your age groups but you have to be minding within the stated numbers on your certificate.

So again for instance - I still cannot take on anymore than 2 under 5 mindees (at the same time) at the moment as I only effectively have 2 spaces available. To have 3 mindees will make me in breach of regulation.
To have him as a rising 5 in the 5-8 group I still have to make sure that I am within my 3 allocated spaces.

Are you still with me???:D

Yep I get you..... But i had to read that at least 3 times till I did :laughing: :laughing:
Not your fault Pip and its not you that is confusing....its the system:thumbsup:

[The Juggler]

your ratios only change when the child is actually 5 not a rising 5

they changed my certficate in August as dd was due to start school, even though she wasn't 5 until the following April.