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Pipsqueak
16-09-2009, 09:06 AM
I emailed Ofsted yesterday with some questions and this is the response I have been given:

these are my questions:

Dear Sir/Madam

After a long conversation with one of your colleagues on Monday 14th September I would like clarification from you regarding my own situation:
My own son is 4 years old (he turns 5 in December 09) and in full time education.

I currently care for:
I age 3 11.15 to 4.15 3 days a week Wed-Fri
C age 2 7.45 to 12.25
R age 7 7.45 to 9am (this child turns 8 in November 09)
L age 6 7.45 to 9am
L, R and C are siblings and the term time arrangement is 4 days a week - rolling weeks and during holiday periods I will be caring for them 7.45 to 12.45 4 days a week

I have been asked to care for:
J age 4 in full time education 8 - 9am and after school (this child turns 5 in November)
H age 6 8-9am and after school
J and H are siblings

J and H are close family friends (J being in the same class as my own son and are best friends) - their mother is heavily pregnant and has never left them with anyone else (including family members) apart from me and i know them very well. It is possible there will be some holiday work but not much.

Can you tell me if:

I need to apply for a variation (based on the information given above)
explain the application and use of the principle of 'rising 5'
does my certificate need to reflect 'rising 5' for my own son or any other children?
once I have dropped children off at school - providing I am not having them again that day or even if I am having them again that evening - can I take on other children? I know this principle would not apply to my own son as he is still effectively taking up a space.
can a childminder in no circumstances go over their 6 under 8's ratio - could I apply to go over the 6 in special circumstances? What would these 'special' circumstances be?,


Dear ,

Thank you for your e-mail.

In response to your enquiry the maximum number of children a childminder can provide care for at any one time is 6. There is no exception to this when working alone. If you wished to increase your numbers further to this you would have to work along side a co-childminder or assistant.

With regards to Rising 5's, The Early Years Foundation Stage (EYFS) statutory framework states (in relation to Childminders only):

"where four and five year old children attend the setting before and or after a normal school day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult:child ratio".

Providers may request the rising fives condition be added to their certificate for clarity but it is not a requirement to do so. Rising fives is part of the Early Years Foundation Stage requirements and all childminders are able to offer places for rising fives without having the condition on their certificate, providing the maximum number is not exceeded.

The ratios on your certificate are for the maximum number of children at any one time.
It is an offence not to comply with a condition of registration therefore if you wish to change these you must submit a request to vary these conditions.

I hope you find this information helpful. However should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us.

Regards
Gareth Scott
ustomer Service Advisor
Ofsted - National Business Unit
TEL: 08456 404040

so clear as mud and they haven't answered my questions! going to re-email.

LisaMcNally09
16-09-2009, 09:21 AM
Hiya,

How many children are you registered to care for?? What does it say on your certificate??

LisaMcNally09
16-09-2009, 09:26 AM
[QUOTE=Pipsqueak;527384]


My own son is 4 years old (he turns 5 in December 09) and in full time education.

I currently care for:
I age 3 11.15 to 4.15 3 days a week Wed-Fri
C age 2 7.45 to 12.25
R age 7 7.45 to 9am (this child turns 8 in November 09)
L age 6 7.45 to 9am
L, R and C are siblings and the term time arrangement is 4 days a week - rolling weeks and during holiday periods I will be caring for them 7.45 to 12.45 4 days a week

I have been asked to care for:
J age 4 in full time education 8 - 9am and after school (this child turns 5 in November)
H age 6 8-9am and after school
J and H are siblings

J

[QUOTE]

What I gather from this is (im assuming your certificate says 5 kids not including your son!):

Your son is classed as an over 5 because he is in full time school...therefore from what i think your over 5's is full.

You already care for two under fives so could take on J as an under five as the rising fives can count either way but as he turns 5 in November he will then be an over five anyway and your already full IYSWIM.

Im not an expert but this is how I had the rule explained to me by my ofsted inspector!!

HTH

Pipsqueak
16-09-2009, 09:34 AM
aww bless you Lisa - thanks.

I now have the confirmation from Ofsted - I have re-emailed them with asking about the variation for December - I actually know the answer because I discussed it with a nice but dim bloke on the phone but I needed it all in writing - which Ofsted seem incapable of actually doing.

I am going to have to leave James (own son) in my under 5's until December and put J in 'rising 5' - R goes out of my numbers in November and J will replace him and James will go into my numbers in December meaning I will need a variation in December and I will still be within my 6.

I wanted to ask Ofsted as well if a minder can go over her 1:6 ratio in special circumstances - such as for a family with many children!

charliegee
16-09-2009, 09:40 AM
With regards to Rising 5's, The Early Years Foundation Stage (EYFS) statutory framework states (in relation to Childminders only):

"where four and five year old children attend the setting before and or after a normal school day, they may be classed as children over the age of five for the purposes of the adult:child ratio".

Thanks so much for posting the response Pipsquesk!

With regards to this above bit from Ofsted where they talk about children being able to be classed as over 5 for ratios when they attend our settings before and or after a normal school day......where does this leave us for half terms and holidays or even half days (for whatever reason school only did a half day!)

sorry to jump on your post but wondered what everyones thoughts were - thanks Pipsqueak!

(ahhh rising fives!!!) :laughing:

x

Pipsqueak
16-09-2009, 10:04 AM
if a child is classed a rising 5 for ratio purposes then they are classed as 'rising 5' holiday/days off periods as well

Pipsqueak
16-09-2009, 10:11 AM
hah - now I have added an extra bit to the email about

using 'rising 5' as a floating age group and being able to move that child between age groups where necessary

and just geting Offy to confirm that 'rising 5' is classed in 5-8's even during holidays.

Whats the betting they set an inspector on me soon lol

grindal
16-09-2009, 10:18 AM
The whole thing confuses me - so do the staggered starts that rising 5s make at Primary school. Am I right in thinking that if my rising 5 is my DS I have to apply to OFSTED for a new certificate once he is doing 10 sessions a week at Primary School? Primary schools around here do not have a definitive date for rising 5s to be doing 5 full days, they say it depends on how long it takes the child to settle and in some cases this can take until Christmas. Makes forward planning a bit difficult!

Pipsqueak
16-09-2009, 10:50 AM
rising 5 is only when the child is 10 sessions of full time education ie/ 9am through to 3.15 - a school day. staggered starts aren't included.


According to the the Ofsted email (if you read the whole reply) then no you do not need to apply for a new certificate to reflect 'rising 5' if you don't want to - as its your choice whether to use it or not. You will need new certifcate when your child turns 5 though.

singlewiththree
16-09-2009, 01:19 PM
The whole thing confuses me - so do the staggered starts that rising 5s make at Primary school. Am I right in thinking that if my rising 5 is my DS I have to apply to OFSTED for a new certificate once he is doing 10 sessions a week at Primary School? Primary schools around here do not have a definitive date for rising 5s to be doing 5 full days, they say it depends on how long it takes the child to settle and in some cases this can take until Christmas. Makes forward planning a bit difficult!

I've applied for a certificate for my DD. She doesn't start school until Monday after her operation. All her classmates are doing full time but she can't until at least Weds they said I should apply for my certificate now and that was Monday and I still haven't received it. I'm expecting it to arrive soon but obviously still going to treat her in my numbers until she is full time.

My DD3 starts next year and is the youngest in the class I was going to start her off full time when everyone else does but what if she then needs to go back to part time do I then need a variation if I have already filled her space?

Hebs
16-09-2009, 01:49 PM
Boy am I glad my kids are old enough not to count in my under 8's lol

That sounds so confusing

margimum
16-09-2009, 03:27 PM
One more point!
Your certificate allows you to have 6 children in total under 8 including your own.
If you choose to you can have all over 5's and no little ones. Or 1 under 5 and the rest bigger iyswim?
I think if a family had 6 children who needed minding it would be cheaper to hire a nanny than put them with a reg cm:eek: :eek:

youarewhatyoueat
16-09-2009, 05:09 PM
aww bless you Lisa - thanks.

I now have the confirmation from Ofsted - I have re-emailed them with asking about the variation for December - I actually know the answer because I discussed it with a nice but dim bloke on the phone but I needed it all in writing - which Ofsted seem incapable of actually doing.

I am going to have to leave James (own son) in my under 5's until December and put J in 'rising 5' - R goes out of my numbers in November and J will replace him and James will go into my numbers in December meaning I will need a variation in December and I will still be within my 6.

I wanted to ask Ofsted as well if a minder can go over her 1:6 ratio in special circumstances - such as for a family with many children!

I doubt ofsted would consider this as you may not be insured if they were all under age 8 as the max on ncma insurance is 12 but this is 6 under 8's and 6 over. But I dare you to ask them, as I am sooooo confused now and i've got a headache from reading that lot.lol but well done for asking i'm sure it will sink in eventually.

Pipsqueak
16-09-2009, 05:40 PM
I doubt ofsted would consider this as you may not be insured if they were all under age 8 as the max on ncma insurance is 12 but this is 6 under 8's and 6 over. But I dare you to ask them, as I am sooooo confused now and i've got a headache from reading that lot.lol but well done for asking i'm sure it will sink in eventually.

I did ask them about going over the 1:6 and got a most emphatic no no no!!!!
I certainly couldn't mind for my friend who has 4 under 8's and expecting another in december (this is baby number 10).

nic76
17-09-2009, 09:54 AM
omg i am getting myself so confused. must stop reading.:blush:

10 kids is she mad